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Britain should vote on leaving EU

britain vote eu david cameron

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#1    Still Waters

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:13 PM

David Cameron should ask the British people if they want to stay in the European Union, Italy's prime minister has said.

Mario Monti said he had told Mr Cameron in person that he must resolve “the fundamental question" over Britain's future: “Do you want to remain in the European Union or not?”

He also suggested that some European politicians, especially in France, would like Britain to leave the union.

http://www.telegraph...Monti-says.html

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#2    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:48 PM

Mario Monti - even though he is a perfect example of the anti-democracy of the EU because he was foisted upon the Italians by Brussels without there even being an election - is actually talking sense there.

There are two choices for Cameron, and neither are good for the Europhiles.  Either:

1)  He gives the British people the EU in/out referendum that polls show the majority of Britons want and in which polls show the majority of Britons will vote to leave the EU by the next election in 2015, or;

2)  He doesn't give us the much-wanted referendum by the next election in 2015 and he will therefore see his party lose precious votes to the very much up-and-coming UKIP in that election.

His wise move would be to choose option No1, which will surely guarantee that his party will win the 2015 General Election and Britain will then start proceedings to exit the EU.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 27 November 2012 - 03:50 PM.


#3    keithisco

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

This will of course be music to the ears of some here... yet curiously I also now think that the question of UK Membership should be put to the Electorate in the UK, and the question on the Ballot Form should be "Yes" or "No". No fudging about with "renegotiating terms" just a simple "In or Out" vote.

At the same time, the ludicrous Veto could also be removed so that the "Coalition of the Willing" could finally put mainland Europe on a defined footing.

Hand - in Hand with that vote should be the opportunity for those who believe in the European Model to apply to become Citizens of the EU - to hold passports that designate their Nationality as EU Citizens, and not tied to the UK, this would protect the hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of people that have already relocated to the european mainland, to have freedom of movement within the EU. This way , you can get rid of all the UK Europhiles, and their spending power, in one swoop!!

Edited by keithisco, 27 November 2012 - 04:00 PM.


#4    questionmark

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:21 PM

As I said: you can only keep on saying for so long that you want to leave before you are invited to do it.

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#5    stevewinn

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:23 PM

If the UK was to leave the political Union no citizen of the UK should be classed as a EU citizen. - those who believe in the EU model should, if they want to become EU citizens, apply to a EU member country to become a citizen of that country and then by default they'll become a EU citizen. obviously those already with dual nationality would get around this anyway. but the point is those in the UK would not be classed as EU citizens by default like what currently happens.

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#6    keithisco

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:18 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 27 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

1.  If the UK was to leave the political Union no citizen of the UK should be classed as a EU citizen. -
2.  those who believe in the EU model should, if they want to become EU citizens, apply to a EU member country to become a citizen of that country and then by default they'll become a EU citizen.

obviously those already with dual nationality would get around this anyway.

3. but the point is those in the UK would not be classed as EU citizens by default like what currently happens.

In reply:

1.  I never said that. The agreed option should be for UK Europhiles to be accepted as EU Citizens if the UK withdraws from the UK. That way their business interests in the EU are not compromised, neither are their reitrement plans.
2.  It takes up to 10 years of permanent residence in an EU Member State to actually be eligible to apply for Citizenship of that particular nation
3. EU Citizenship does not exist, Citizen of a Member State of the EU DOES exist. That is why there are no EU Passports at the moment, and why Schengen does not require Passport checking..


#7    acidhead

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:45 AM

View Postkeithisco, on 27 November 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

In reply:

1.  I never said that. The agreed option should be for UK Europhiles to be accepted as EU Citizens if the UK withdraws from the UK. That way their business interests in the EU are not compromised, neither are their reitrement plans.
2.  It takes up to 10 years of permanent residence in an EU Member State to actually be eligible to apply for Citizenship of that particular nation
3. EU Citizenship does not exist, Citizen of a Member State of the EU DOES exist. That is why there are no EU Passports at the moment, and why Schengen does not require Passport checking..

--first thought I thought after reading this post was, "Do you have your papers?"

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#8    keithisco

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:56 PM

View Postacidhead, on 28 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

--first thought I thought after reading this post was, "Do you have your papers?"

lol

Really funny!! Do you have your Papers?? I know I am Legal as a Citizen of the UK

Edited by keithisco, 28 November 2012 - 05:57 PM.


#9    smurf0852

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:31 PM

i agree they should vote to leave .but only because i want to see the uk brought to its knees .so we can remerge with a better fairer country .this idea that we will instantly be richer and have some kind of empire again is vomit inducing misguided and stupid .wages will fall jobs will be lost inflation will go sky high and the streets will burn .but white van man will be able to say yea but were british cos we read the sun init.


#10    keithisco

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 05:10 PM

View Postsmurf0852, on 28 November 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

i agree they should vote to leave .but only because i want to see the uk brought to its knees .so we can remerge with a better fairer country .this idea that we will instantly be richer and have some kind of empire again is vomit inducing misguided and stupid .wages will fall jobs will be lost inflation will go sky high and the streets will burn .but white van man will be able to say yea but were british cos we read the sun init.

Your post sums up perfectly the Anti - European brigade. Based on false hopes, false beliefs in Empire, even falser hopes that the Commonwealth would let the UK back in again....and the totally misguided belief that the EU would immediately negotiate a Free Trade pact with a country that has held back the future of the EU for decades.

When the UK leaves (and I hope it does, and it must do) they will become like Cuba, a tiny Nation of whingers looking at its "so much more prosperous" United States of Europe". rather than the USA, wishing they were a member of the club.


#11    stevewinn

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:09 PM

View Postsmurf0852, on 28 November 2012 - 11:31 PM, said:

i agree they should vote to leave .but only because i want to see the uk brought to its knees .so we can remerge with a better fairer country .this idea that we will instantly be richer and have some kind of empire again is vomit inducing misguided and stupid .wages will fall jobs will be lost inflation will go sky high and the streets will burn .but white van man will be able to say yea but were british cos we read the sun init.

what a complete lorry load of steaming manure. i wish people would get over this stupid idea of a new or old British empire. you europhiles cannot even debate the issue without mentioning the empire you literally have nothing else to go on. except fear and fear alone.

The play on fear used by the europhiles is the worst of all, as your example proves jobs will be lost, inflation sky high, streets burning, - You'd think an independent United Kingdom out of the EU would be heading towards a disaster of biblical proportions, old testament wrath of GOD stuff, fire and brimstone coming down from the sky, rivers and seas boiling, earthquakes volcanoes, cats and dogs living together - mass hysteria.  :w00t:

The United Kingdom is a master strategist, its hard to face the facts but the fact remains the UK does not need to be a political member of the EU, why do we need to shape the continent in which we have little in common. what benefit does the UK get for being a full EU member. besides trade, trade which i must remind people will continue even if not a EU member. UK PLC will continue to trade with the EU bloc and co-operate with our neighbours.

answers on a postcard.

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#12    smurf0852

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

View Poststevewinn, on 29 November 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

what a complete lorry load of steaming manure. i wish people would get over this stupid idea of a new or old British empire. you europhiles cannot even debate the issue without mentioning the empire you literally have nothing else to go on. except fear and fear alone.

The play on fear used by the europhiles is the worst of all, as your example proves jobs will be lost, inflation sky high, streets burning, - You'd think an independent United Kingdom out of the EU would be heading towards a disaster of biblical proportions, old testament wrath of GOD stuff, fire and brimstone coming down from the sky, rivers and seas boiling, earthquakes volcanoes, cats and dogs living together - mass hysteria.  :w00t:

The United Kingdom is a master strategist, its hard to face the facts but the fact remains the UK does not need to be a political member of the EU, why do we need to shape the continent in which we have little in common. what benefit does the UK get for being a full EU member. besides trade, trade which i must remind people will continue even if not a EU member. UK PLC will continue to trade with the EU bloc and co-operate with our neighbours.

answers on a postcard.
the united kingdom wont even be united anymore in a year or 2  as for master strategists we are heading for a triple dip ressetion we cant do it alone .but as i said i really do want us to leave for the sake of europe we as a country are screwed and i can see no reason to drag our neighbours down with us .
as for trade what i can see happening is the eu as it moves forward is them giving money for foreign firms now operating in the uk like nissan massive subsidies to move to europe .while at the same time imposing import tariffs on our good because we have seriously pissed them off .they dont need us or like us and will prosper without us while we scrat about winging about how unfair it isbecause we are british .
my hope on the back of this is a peaceful social revolution with a more equal class free society at the end.


#13    stevewinn

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:03 PM

View Postsmurf0852, on 01 December 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

the united kingdom wont even be united anymore in a year or 2  as for master strategists we are heading for a triple dip ressetion we cant do it alone .but as i said i really do want us to leave for the sake of europe we as a country are screwed and i can see no reason to drag our neighbours down with us .
as for trade what i can see happening is the eu as it moves forward is them giving money for foreign firms now operating in the uk like nissan massive subsidies to move to europe .while at the same time imposing import tariffs on our good because we have seriously pissed them off .they dont need us or like us and will prosper without us while we scrat about winging about how unfair it isbecause we are british .
my hope on the back of this is a peaceful social revolution with a more equal class free society at the end.

currently the Euro Zone is recession for the second time, Greece is in a depression. Spain and Portugal not far behind, France credit rating down graded, the forecast for the EU is grim for the next two years and some say it will take a decade and you can well believe it. we have the richer northern members trying to claw themselves out of the hole whilst the poorer southern members are pulling them back in.

the Fact is the world is in growth yet the Eurozone is in recession. Britain is out of recession with the rest of the world - British exports to the world are increasing while exports to the EU are falling. you have it wrong - back to front - its in fact them going to possibly drag us back into recession.

96% of UK - EU trade agreements are covered by the WTO. we run a deficit with europe, so if they were to put tariffs on British goods it will hurt them more than us. and like i've said before we'd just do tit for tat, they put 10% on British goods we'll put 10% on EU goods. swings and roundabouts, it wouldnt even come to this. the UK's biggest trade partners in the EU only are Germany, Netherlands, France, Irish Republic. will these members sit at the table and like turkeys vote for christmas. No,

as a country we are screwed? Far from it, the UK can service its debts, we haven't needed to be bailed out, The UK is in a strong position. we still maintain our triple A credit rating, what we seem to forget is this. the UK has lent money to the EU and IMF, with a 6% interest rate on those loans. 7% for Ireland. money loaned through the IMF will be repaid, in the 70 years the IMF as existed no loss as been made. so we can rest assured we'll get that money back. for a country in trouble as you say we've throughout the recession continued to bailout other countries.

The saving grace, the UK as been in recessions before, the pound sterling and economy have been tested and each and every time we've emerged. unlike the Euro currency which is experiencing its first real world test and the wheels are coming off. the end is nigh infact. i truly cannot see the eurozone continuing in its current state of one size fits all. am not even against the Eurozone/currency as we are not a user/member - so no axe to grind on that issue.

Edited by stevewinn, 01 December 2012 - 01:43 PM.

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#14    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:01 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 29 November 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

even falser hopes that the Commonwealth would let the UK back in again....

They aren't false hopes.  Britain is already a member of the Commonwealth.

And when Britain joined the EU in 1973, it was an unpopular decision with many other Commonwealth member states, such as New Zealand.  Britain joining the EU wrecked the New Zealand economy.

Quote

and the totally misguided belief that the EU would immediately negotiate a Free Trade pact with a country that has held back the future of the EU for decades.

If the EU decides that it wants to end all trade with a country which buys more from the EU than the EU buys from it, then that's the EU's problem.

However, the EU attempting to stop all trade with Britain would actually be illegal.

And it is not Britain holding the EU back.  It is the EU holding Britain, and her economy, back.

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When the UK leaves (and I hope it does, and it must do) they will become like Cuba, a tiny Nation of whingers

We'll be like Cuba in the sense that, like Cuba, we will be part of the 83% of the world's countries who are NOT part of the EU and who are able to run themselves without all of the silly and petty EU rules holding us back and we would no longer have the stifling hand of Brussels stifling our economic growth and prosperity.

Quote

looking at its "so much more prosperous" United States of Europe". rather than the USA, wishing they were a member of the club.

There will never be a country called the United States of Europe and, even if there is, why would the UK want to be part of such monstrosity?  Britain should remain a free, sovereign and independent state with its own currency, own parliament, own military, its monarchy, its ancient institutions.

If other EU countries do not value their own sovereignty and independence then that's there problem, but please don't try and drag the UK into your propsed United States of Europe monstrosity.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 01 December 2012 - 03:02 PM.


#15    TheLastLazyGun

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 01 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

the Fact is the world is in growth yet the Eurozone is in recession. Britain is out of recession with the rest of the world - British exports to the world are increasing while exports to the EU are falling. you have it wrong - back to front - its in fact them going to possibly drag us back into recession.

I agree.

What is rarely mentioned by the Europhiles is that Britain is actually in a trade deficit with the EU but has a trade surplus with the rest of the world.

And figures released earlier this year show that most British exports go to countries outside the EU.

Quote

96% of UK - EU trade agreements are covered by the WTO. we run a deficit with europe, so if they were to put tariffs on British goods it will hurt them more than us.

Again, you are right.

Europhile scaremongerers keep telling us that British trade will suffer should Britain leave the EU.  But this is not borne out by the stats.  In fact, it is the EU which will come worse off should a trade dispute arise between the EU and an independent Britain.

In the House of Commons on 31st October it was confirmed that the EU continues to do better out of trade with the UK than the UK does. In fact the Balance of Trade deficit the UK has with the EU has widened:


Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the size of the UK trade deficit with the EU was in each of the last five years.
Mr Davey: As published by the Office of National Statistics, the balance of trade between the United Kingdom and the European Union over the last years were as follows:



UK’s balance of trade in goods and services with the EU

£ million
2006: -29,616
2007: -35,235
2008: -28,582
2009: -27,421
2010: -35,534

While a number of commentators were quick to mention that Honda cars are made in Swindon and Nissan cars are made in Sunderland to take advantage of the UK’s ability to trade within the EU customs union, even with these manufacturing activities we still buy far more from the EU member states than they buy from us.  If both car makers moved to the continent it would only increase our balance of trade deficit with the EU and actually make us an even more valuable trading partner.

The figures make clear there is a vested interest in EU member states maintaining strong trade links with the UK, irrespective of whether the UK is self governing or ruled from Brussels.  To cite a loss of trade as a rationale for staying firmly inside the EU, and subverting the right of the British people to decide how this country is governed and by whom, is simply dishonest.

The UK's largest SINGLE NATION trading partner since the war (1945), has been the USA. It still is.

We had a £20 billion trade deficit with Germany alone, in 2007. In 2007, we imported £16 billion of food from the EU, and exported £6 bn. A deficit of £10 bn. On food. In 1 year.

Something not mentioned by Europhiles are the "Rotterdam Effect" on Britain's export figures (which make it look as though Britain exports more to the EU than it actually does) and the "Dublin Effect" which skews our import figures in that goods destined for Ireland are routed via UK Ports and therefore added to our tally.  (Dublin doesn’t yet have a harbour large enough to accommodate gigantic container ships).

http://autonomousmin...-the-uk-and-eu/

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 01 December 2012 - 03:21 PM.






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