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The Nature of Reality


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#16    Saru

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 09:40 PM

As this debate has now concluded i'll open this up to contributions from other members.

Thank you both for taking part.


#17    MARAB0D

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 03:46 AM

Saru on Jul 4 2009, 09:40 AM, said:

As this debate has now concluded i'll open this up to contributions from other members.

Thank you both for taking part.


Thank you Saru. As my position has been fully expressed I would be happy to see the independent views of the independent Observers for me to be able to independently confirm my Subjective vision of Objective Reality or debunk such. I appreciate the opportunity, given to me to discuss this important matter and find the settings of Formal Debate forum next to perfect for settling the principle contradictions, which may arise between the participants in standard discussion threads.


#18    PerVirtuous

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 04:02 PM

Saru on Jul 3 2009, 05:40 PM, said:

As this debate has now concluded i'll open this up to contributions from other members.

Thank you both for taking part.



Thanks for allowing. It was "real" fun.


#19    Sherapy

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 06:33 PM

marabod on Jul 3 2009, 08:46 PM, said:

Thank you Saru. As my position has been fully expressed I would be happy to see the independent views of the independent Observers for me to be able to independently confirm my Subjective vision of Objective Reality or debunk such. I appreciate the opportunity, given to me to discuss this important matter and find the settings of Formal Debate forum next to perfect for settling the principle contradictions, which may arise between the participants in standard discussion threads.

marabond..
wow what  a interesting debate and a great opportunity to see how seasoned you are in this subject,you put the 'ow' in wow...... and  my how well you debate in general "whistles"....

I learned alot, i mean  alot from you  on many levels.....



I think this thread is a great model for  understanding on how argumentation is used in academia as opposed to persuasive arguing which  is really the majority of what we have on Um ..
thankyou guys so much for this  as it was a delight to  read..

good job perv,as you were up against a expert in the subject .. ...

Edited by Tangerine Sheri, 04 July 2009 - 06:36 PM.




#20    MARAB0D

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 06:50 PM

Tangerine Sheri on Jul 5 2009, 06:33 AM, said:

marabond..
wow what  a interesting debate and a great opportunity to see how seasoned you are in this subject,you put the 'ow' in wow...... and  my how well you debate in general "whistles"....

I learned alot, i mean  alot from you  on many levels.....



I think this thread is a great model for  understanding on how argumentation is used in academia as opposed to persuasive arguing which  is really the majority of what we have on Um ..
thankyou guys so much for this  as it was a delight to  read..

good job perv,as you were up against a expert in the subject .. ...

wub.gif


#21    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 06:52 PM

marabod on Jul 3 2009, 06:31 PM, said:

In order to measure the objects of Objective Reality we first agree on the measure units we use (currently SI system) and then express the qualities of the objects in these units. "Large" or "small", "light" or "heavy" and generally "how long is a piece of string" has nothing to so with Objective Reality and are purely Subjective. Two hair on a head is not enough, but in the soup its too many.

Taste of food belongs to the senses which we use to observe Reality, this makes this taste Subjective, dependent on Observer - but the food is Objective. Other Observers can also taste it. There is a compound called Sodium Bensoate used to make most of the tablets sold. Official data on it says "tasteless", however the human Observers are divided into 5 groups on this planet - one group indeed takes it as tasteless, another groups as bitter, sweet, sour and salty...


And I am suggesting, that if my opponent Subjectively removes themselves from Objective Reality, then such removal must be accompanied by the removal of their Concept of Reality as an Abstract Concept, as it also does not exist Objectively. On this I rest my case.  laugh.gif


WOW impressive Marabod...you sure have done your homework lol grin2.gif

impressive mate..I believe you took full control and well done

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 04 July 2009 - 06:53 PM.

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#22    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 06:57 PM

Tangerine Sheri on Jul 4 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

good job perv,as you were up against a expert in the subject .. ...

I agree Sheri.good job to perv.not everyone likes to challenge a real expert

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#23    Sherapy

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 07:13 PM

Beckys_Mom on Jul 4 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

I agree Sheri.good job to perv.not everyone likes to challenge a real expert


very well said geri.....i do admire pervs.. zest and zeal for a challenge.....

great job perv... w00t.gif




#24    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 07:21 PM

both brought up great points ...... very interesting debate  indeed.


#25    Delovely5150

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 07:36 PM

T'was definitely a very interesting topic and debate.  The both of you have expressed something other people wouldn't have known and thank you for sharing those knowledge.  Very well done, Marabod and PerVirtuous, it, sure, was entertaining! linked-image


#26    MARAB0D

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 07:39 PM

Thank you, BM. But there was one detail... I did not do any home work at all, as it cost me no effort to express what Reality is because I really think this way, I was taught to think like that when I was doing my degree. Anyone working in Science must think this way, otherwise it becomes impossible to work with Objective Reality and study it. This was actually my premise in the previous discussion about the possibility of religious people to work in Science. In my view they cannot professionally study Objective Reality because they do not fully understand what it is and confuse it with their own Subjective Reality.


#27    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 10:53 PM


Originally Posted by alexplatups:

and are moving toward creating something that is important to you...for example when Picasso was creating his art...



I love Picasso. He illustrates how mind creates reality.



There is a story about how his friend says, "Hey Picasso, I hear you're an artist now. Paint a picture of me."


So Picasso paints a picture of his friend. And of course, since he is Picasso, he draws his friend to look something like this:

linked-image

See picture above

So his friend says, "No, no. I asked you to draw a picture of ME."



Picasso replies, "Yes, that's what I did."



Friend: "But I don't look like that."



Picasso is very confused. "But you DO look like that. You look EXACTLY like that ... to me."



His perception creates his reality. Same goes for all of us. Our reality can never be other than what we perceive it to be.


And that is what .... Alex Platups .... cannot grasp. Alex sees reality one way, and that is the only way he can see it, and if people say that they see reality another way, Alex believes that they must be lying, or insane, or escaping reality, or believing in bull.


Actually if everyone in the world saw reality the way Alex Platups does, then everyone in the world would be Alex Platupses. There could not possibly be a Picasso ... or an Einstein ... or a Jesus ... or a Gandhi ... or an Obama .... or a Usain Bolt ... or a Kahlil Gibran ... or a Steven Spielberg .... or a Steve Pavlina ... or a Newton Forte.


There can only be .... Alex.

http://open.salon.com/blog/newfort/2009/04...eality_-_part_1


#28    Sherapy

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Posted 04 July 2009 - 11:29 PM

Lt_Ripley on Jul 4 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

Originally Posted by alexplatups:

and are moving toward creating something that is important to you...for example when Picasso was creating his art...



I love Picasso. He illustrates how mind creates reality.



There is a story about how his friend says, "Hey Picasso, I hear you're an artist now. Paint a picture of me."


So Picasso paints a picture of his friend. And of course, since he is Picasso, he draws his friend to look something like this:

linked-image

See picture above

So his friend says, "No, no. I asked you to draw a picture of ME."



Picasso replies, "Yes, that's what I did."



Friend: "But I don't look like that."



Picasso is very confused. "But you DO look like that. You look EXACTLY like that ... to me."



His perception creates his reality. Same goes for all of us. Our reality can never be other than what we perceive it to be.


And that is what .... Alex Platups .... cannot grasp. Alex sees reality one way, and that is the only way he can see it, and if people say that they see reality another way, Alex believes that they must be lying, or insane, or escaping reality, or believing in bull.


Actually if everyone in the world saw reality the way Alex Platups does, then everyone in the world would be Alex Platupses. There could not possibly be a Picasso ... or an Einstein ... or a Jesus ... or a Gandhi ... or an Obama .... or a Usain Bolt ... or a Kahlil Gibran ... or a Steven Spielberg .... or a Steve Pavlina ... or a Newton Forte.


There can only be .... Alex.

http://open.salon.com/blog/newfort/2009/04...eality_-_part_1


this is very tru IMO  if we are talking subjective reality, but in an objective frame  the realty exists whether we beleive in it or not or percieve it or not or agree with it or not...

it just is..


i think pregnancy is a good analogy for this...




#29    MARAB0D

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 12:08 AM

Tangerine Sheri on Jul 5 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

this is very tru IMO  if we are talking subjective reality, but in an objective frame  the realty exists whether we beleive in it or not or percieve it or not or agree with it or not...

it just is..


i think pregnancy is a good analogy for this...


of course the painting is Objective but the image on it is Subjective. Moreover it is created by the artist, different people also would perceive it differently. Picture itself is just a framed canvas with some metal oxides glued to it, and it is our Subjective realities which make it a masterpiece. If Picasso managed to make a son like that, then this would've been Objective - but for this he needed not to paint but to spend a year living and sleeping in the reactor room in some power station original.gif


#30    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 05 July 2009 - 05:10 AM

marabod on Jul 4 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

of course the painting is Objective but the image on it is Subjective. Moreover it is created by the artist, different people also would perceive it differently. Picture itself is just a framed canvas with some metal oxides glued to it, and it is our Subjective realities which make it a masterpiece. If Picasso managed to make a son like that, then this would've been Objective - but for this he needed not to paint but to spend a year living and sleeping in the reactor room in some power station original.gif


lol.





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