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Atlantis


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#1996    docyabut2

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 February 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Docyabut2,

How old is that inscription on Thera? I mean the inscription that was being translated as "EUMELUS an excellent danger".

Is that translation even correct and what does it suggest if it is?

Abramelin just learning this stuff my self:):)  I have for many years defended that Atlantis was near the straits of Gibralter and was possibly the lost city of Tartessos, but some how things just did`nt add up.

Here are some references.  

G. Galanopoulos and E. Bacon suggest[263] that the Pillars of Heracles were possibly associated with Melos, one of the Cycladesor Cape Maleas, the eastern promontory of the Gulf of Laconia. Both James Mavor and Rodney Castleden support this view.


#1997    Abramelin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 12:18 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 07 February 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Abramelin just learning this stuff my self:) :)  I have for many years defended that Atlantis was near the straits of Gibralter and was possibly the lost city of Tartessos, but some how things just did`nt add up.

Here are some references.  

G. Galanopoulos and E. Bacon suggest[263] that the Pillars of Heracles were possibly associated with Melos, one of the Cycladesor Cape Maleas, the eastern promontory of the Gulf of Laconia. Both James Mavor and Rodney Castleden support this view.

This is what the first link says:

Dr. Galanopoulos was a supporter of the idea that the Egyptian hieroglyphic for 100 was misread as 1000 and so decreased all numbers in Plato’s text by factor of ten. This explanation does not stand up to scrutiny, as the Egyptian hieroglyphics are distinctly different and in any case the Egyptian priests who presumably would have a clear understanding of their own inscriptions would have carried out the interpretation.

In fact the first two links in your quote do not support the Thera/Crete theory, lol!

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 February 2013 - 01:15 PM.


#1998    Harte

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 07 February 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

The old greek writers didn`n t place Hercules out of the Pelopnnese.


Gades was Jowett `s translation, Gades was named by the romans hundreds of years after Solon, it was not Solon`s translation

Again, no.

Quote

Gadir (Phoenician: גדר), the original name given to the outpost established here by the Phoenicians, means "wall, compound", or, more generally, "walled stronghold".

And:

Quote

Later, the city became known by a similar Attic Greek form of the Phoenician name, τὰ Γάδειρα (Gádeira). In Ionic Greek, the name is spelled slightly differently, Γήδειρα (Gḗdeira). This spelling appears in the histories written by Herodotus. Rarely, the name is spelled ἡ Γαδείρα (Gadeíra), as, for example, in the writings of Eratosthenes (as attested by Stephanus of Byzantium).
Source: Wiki Cadiz
In Greek, it was Gadeira.  You're right that it's Jowett's translation.  It is his translation of the Greek term Gadeira. Jowett used the Latin version of the name.

The (imaginary) Egyptians that never actually related any such story to Solon clearly indicated that Atlantis was outside Gibraltar and not far from the west coast of Spain by these statements.

Again, you can make up any "facts" you want.  But that won't make them factual.

View PostProclus, on 07 February 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Your answer does not satisfy scientific standards. First, you avoided to talk on the statement I made. Then, you denied the possibility of a mistake without any reasons.
Once you allow "the possibility of a mistake," you are inserting an infinite number of possibilities.  For example, what if Plato made a "mistake" concerning the size of Atlantis.  Then I could claim that the entire continent is actually stored inside one of the old tennis shoes in my closet.

View PostProclus, on 07 February 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Could you please realize that a scientific treatment of Plato's Atlantis story requires some more precision and differentation?
Do you know how to use the search function?  Is it my responsibility to present what you consider to be "scientific arguments" repeatedly at this site, merely because a poster refuses to take a look at what has already been posted here?

View PostProclus, on 07 February 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Thank you. In the end, nobody prevents you from concluding that it is not real, so your behaviour of denial even the least concessions is not understandable. Dogmatism is not science.
It would certainly be "understandable" to anyone that has actually researched the subject thoroughly, as I and many others here have.

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#1999    docyabut2

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:22 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 February 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

This is what the first link says:

Dr. Galanopoulos was a supporter of the idea that the Egyptian hieroglyphic for 100 was misread as 1000 and so decreased all numbers in Plato’s text by factor of ten. This explanation does not stand up to scrutiny, as the Egyptian hieroglyphics are distinctly different and in any case the Egyptian priests who presumably would have a clear understanding of their own inscriptions would have carried out the interpretation.

In fact the first two links in your quote do not support the Thera/Crete theory, lol!

.

They support the Minoans of Thera and Crete for Plato`s Atlantis

Edited by docyabut2, 07 February 2013 - 01:32 PM.


#2000    Proclus

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:42 PM

View PostHarte, on 07 February 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

Once you allow "the possibility of a mistake," you are inserting an infinite number of possibilities.  For example, what if Plato made a "mistake" concerning the size of Atlantis.  Then I could claim that the entire continent is actually stored inside one of the old tennis shoes in my closet.

It would certainly be "understandable" to anyone that has actually researched the subject thoroughly, as I and many others here have.

Yes, the number of possibilities is infinite. *smile* The crucial thing is: Some are more likely, some less. This is scientific thinking. Yeah! Atlantis in your shoes e.g. has a very small likelihood. Furthermore you repeatedly ignore what I elsewhere stated, that you cannot just jump into any possibility, but you have to have reasons for this.

I repeatedly have to say: This black and white scheme, either "fact" or "not of interest" and nothing in between, this is so uneducated, really ... you can't sell this to me as "science", the crucial thing in science is to handle uncertainties.

Yes, that's why so many think Atlantis cannot but be a fiction: Because they do not bear the tension of not knowing. But staying in a we-do-not-know state is at the heart of science.

_

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#2001    Abramelin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 07 February 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

They support the Minoans of Thera and Crete for Plato`s Atlantis

Again:

Dr. Galanopoulos was a supporter of the idea that the Egyptian hieroglyphic for 100 was misread as 1000 and so decreased all numbers in Plato’s text by factor of ten. This explanation does not stand up to scrutiny, as the Egyptian hieroglyphics are distinctly different and in any case the Egyptian priests who presumably would have a clear understanding of their own inscriptions would have carried out the interpretation.


#2002    Quaentum

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:26 PM

What we need to ask is how much of Plato's story will some people change to try to make Atlantis real?  There is talk that Plato got the time wrong but what about the rest?  There are no written or oral evidences for Atlantis conquering the lands indicated by Plato, the size and location of the island, it's sinking beneath the waves, etc.. So shouldn't we just change all that so it makes Atlantis a reality?  Or maybe we could see that Plato's story doesn't hold water (no pun intended) and take it for what it was and is, a story of fiction.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2003    Abramelin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:12 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 07 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

What we need to ask is how much of Plato's story will some people change to try to make Atlantis real?  There is talk that Plato got the time wrong but what about the rest?  There are no written or oral evidences for Atlantis conquering the lands indicated by Plato, the size and location of the island, it's sinking beneath the waves, etc.. So shouldn't we just change all that so it makes Atlantis a reality?  Or maybe we could see that Plato's story doesn't hold water (no pun intended) and take it for what it was and is, a story of fiction.

I think the only theory that made geological sense, a theory that put Atlantis in the right place (Atlantic), the right time (9600 BCE), and also explained that it really sunk, is the one posted/published by Rod Martin (username "MissionAtlantis").

He once started a thread here on UM, but within a very short time the discussion wasn't about his theory anymore.

Now I will be the last one to suggest I know enough of geology, but from what I know Martin's theory makes the most sense, without resorting to outlandish statements. In his theory Atlantis was about as large as it should be, located where it should be, existing when it should be, and submerged when it should have.

His theory also explains the elephants in Atlantis.

I am not saying he proved the existence of Atlantis, but he had a - to me - sound theory that it could have existed.

Here is the pdf in which he explains it in detail:

http://www.missionat...tis_geology.pdf

And for the lazy s.o.b.s he also made a short and not so serious YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oObKC4HsRI

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 February 2013 - 04:24 PM.


#2004    Quaentum

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 February 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

I think the only theory that made geological sense, a theory that put Atlantis in the right place (Atlantic), the right time (9600 BCE), and also explained that it really sunk, is the one posted/published by Rod Martin (username "MissionAtlantis").

He once started a thread here on UM, but within a very short time the discussion wasn't about his theory anymore.

Now I will be the last one to suggest I know enough of geology, but from what I know Martin's theory makes the most sense, without resorting to outlandish statements. In his theory Atlantis was about as large as it should be, located where it should be, existing when it should be, and submerged when it should have.

His theory also explains the elephants in Atlantis.

I am not saying he proved the existence of Atlantis, but he had a - to me - sound theory that it could have existed.

Here is the pdf in which he explains it in detail:

http://www.missionat...tis_geology.pdf

And for the lazy s.o.b.s he also made a short and not so serious YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oObKC4HsRI

.
Thanks for the info.  I have printed out the pdf and will look at the video when I am at a computer that doesn't block youtube.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2005    Proclus

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:26 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 07 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

What we need to ask is how much of Plato's story will some people change to try to make Atlantis real?  There is talk that Plato got the time wrong but what about the rest?  There are no written or oral evidences for Atlantis conquering the lands indicated by Plato, the size and location of the island, it's sinking beneath the waves, etc.. So shouldn't we just change all that so it makes Atlantis a reality?  Or maybe we could see that Plato's story doesn't hold water (no pun intended) and take it for what it was and is, a story of fiction.

I wonder how easily you say this: "what it was and is, a stroy of fiction". You can't be serious with this. This is at least not what Plato's dialogues say and many scholars do not assume that Plato just "invented" the elements of his "Platonic Myths", besides the fact that the Atlantis story is not presented as mythos like other Platonic Myths. Things are not that easy.

How much do we have to change? Maybe we will never know. Just changing is no solution. Just declaring it for fiction, is no solution, either. We do not know. We have to search.

_

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!

#2006    docyabut2

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:41 PM

If Atlantis had been as large as Libya and Asia, as we understand them today, it would have been geologically impossible for it to have been destroyed by an earthquake/s.  To me ,if the tale of Atlantis was anyway true, it would have to based on a real event that happen in history.


#2007    Abramelin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 05:45 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 07 February 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

If Atlantis had been as large as Libya and Asia, as we understand them today, it would have been geologically impossible for it to have been destroyed by an earthquake/s.  To me ,if the tale of Atlantis was anyway true, it would have to based on a real event that happen in history.

But it is about Libya and Asia as they understood them to be. We even have maps from Plato's and Herodotus' time so we know what they meant when they talked about Libya or Asia:

Posted Image




Did you read that pdf I posted?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 February 2013 - 05:47 PM.


#2008    Quaentum

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 06:40 PM

View PostProclus, on 07 February 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

I wonder how easily you say this: "what it was and is, a stroy of fiction". You can't be serious with this. This is at least not what Plato's dialogues say and many scholars do not assume that Plato just "invented" the elements of his "Platonic Myths", besides the fact that the Atlantis story is not presented as mythos like other Platonic Myths. Things are not that easy.

How much do we have to change? Maybe we will never know. Just changing is no solution. Just declaring it for fiction, is no solution, either. We do not know. We have to search.

_

If we change enough of the story to make it fit, it is no longer the story but an invention based on the story.  Is Plato's story a factual account?  If it were nothing would need changing.  Were it true, then writings and oral accounts from those countries supposedly conquered by Atlantis would exist but do not, Writings and oral accounts from Athens and her allies in the war against Atlantis would exist but do not, Writings and oral accounts from Egypt of what they supposedly told Solon would exist but do not.   At what point can we look and say that enough of the story is unevidenced that it can not be considered a factual account but is most likely a work of fiction?

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2009    Abramelin

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:50 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 07 February 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

If Atlantis had been as large as Libya and Asia, as we understand them today, it would have been geologically impossible for it to have been destroyed by an earthquake/s.  To me ,if the tale of Atlantis was anyway true, it would have to based on a real event that happen in history.

It could be an exaggerated story, a story based on a long line of orally passing on an event: A telling B, B telling C, C telling D, and so on for ages on end.

The fish caught was really only 3 feet long, but after 10 generation it grew to the size of a whale.

And add to that a large dose of pride about accomplished tasks (beating some enemy), and you'll get what I'm hinting at.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 February 2013 - 07:51 PM.


#2010    Proclus

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:25 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 07 February 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Is Plato's story a factual account?  If it were nothing would need changing.

Besides some repeatedly false claims by you I emphasize your "nothing" of above: I see that you have understood nothing. You have a really biased idea of science as if you always could decide what is fact and what is not. Have you ever thought about Platonic Myths? They are exactly about this problem: There are things we cannot know for sure but we have to think about them. Who does not understand the concept of a Platonic Myth is basically not able to understand Plato's intention with the Atlantis story.

_

Academic approaches towards Atlantis as a real place: www.Atlantis-Scout.de!




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