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'Peaceful' Minoans Surprisingly Warlike


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#16    docyabut2

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:57 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 January 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

Thera and Crete are two entirely different islands. And none of this supports your contention of a second eruption around 1500 BC.

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Knossos- the eruption of the volcano on nearby Thera, also known as Santorini, has long been held a major factor in the destruction of this city. This event is also thought to have inspired Plato’s description of the sinking of Atlantis).


#17    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:06 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 27 January 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

Knossos- the eruption of the volcano on nearby Thera, also known as Santorini, has long been held a major factor in the destruction of this city. This event is also thought to have inspired Plato’s description of the sinking of Atlantis).

Which STILL doesn't support a second eruption around 1500 BC having happened.

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The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#18    docyabut2

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 02:45 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 January 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

Which STILL doesn't support a second eruption around 1500 BC having happened.

cormac

What about at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt the pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption.?


#19    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:04 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 27 January 2013 - 02:45 AM, said:

What about at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt the pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption.?

As I already mentioned, that's 70+ years after Thera's eruption. Which means that either the date for the pumice is wrong or it didn't actually originate from Thera, but from another eruption.

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The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#20    docyabut2

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:05 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 January 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

As I already mentioned, that's 70+ years after Thera's eruption. Which means that either the date for the pumice is wrong or it didn't actually originate from Thera, but from another eruption.

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Where would another eruption of a volcano be near Egypt?


#21    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:18 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 27 January 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Where would another eruption of a volcano be near Egypt?

While they're only possibilities there are three that would have erupted during the general timeframe of Tell el Dab'a. Mount Etna and Mount Vesuvius both erupted then, as well as Jebel Marra in Chad.

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The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#22    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:52 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

While they're only possibilities there are three that would have erupted during the general timeframe of Tell el Dab'a. Mount Etna and Mount Vesuvius both erupted then, as well as Jebel Marra in Chad.


Another problem with trying to tie Tell el Dab'a to the Thera eruption is that there is a 120-year variance (actually using 1500 BC versus your 1540 BC) between the date of the Thera eruption and the claimed age of pumice at Tell el Dab'a. To make things more difficult there is also a 100 year variance in just the dates within the Tell el Dab'a samples themselves. To date, these variances have NOT been reconciled and are still a matter of much discussion.


http://www.academia...._millennium_BC.

Source Name:  THE CHRONOLOGY OF TELL EL-DABA: A CRUCIAL MEETING POINT OF 14C DATING, ARCHAEOLOGY, AND EGYPTOLOGY IN THE 2ND MILLENNIUM BC (2012)

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Edited by cormac mac airt, 27 January 2013 - 05:53 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#23    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:25 AM

View Postthe L, on 27 January 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

Utopia comes from greek word meaning "No where".
That is erudite.  I think though that it its meaning is as I used it.  (As I recall it got its present meaning from a Thomas Moore book, although I should check that before posting this).


#24    Frank Merton

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:31 AM

It's entirely possible that the society survived the eruption(s) and decayed for other reasons (early Greeks?).  We don't know and should therefore avoid multiplying hypotheses.


#25    Mr Supertypo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:56 AM

IMO the vulcanic eruption may have not destroyed the Minoian civ. But it could have weakned it, laying the path for the future decline, at hand of other natural events or surrounding civilitations. But what do I know....

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#26    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:32 PM

I never thought that the Thera eruption was anything to get excited about historically. Certainly bad for those directly effected on the island, yet lack of human remains strongly suggest an orderly evacuation. I write knowing that it is always possible a Herculaneum type shoreline nightmare may still be discovered, if they were not all vapourised.......
Anyway, I think after the eruption life went on in the area without too much disruption, just like after Vesuvius in AD79.  Minoan civilisation probably collapsed because of external invasion by Greeks


#27    The Exodia

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:59 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 25 January 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

The Egyptain priest does refered the war of Atlantis to the mythical kings of Athens around the 15 hundreds bc, and a earthquake flood of destuction.
At Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption.
Plato-
(This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon)
Plato-
(Where the Acropolis now is there was a fountain, which was choked by the earthquake, and has left only the few small streams which still exist in the vicinity, but in those days the fountain gave an abundant supply of water for all and of suitable temperature in summer and in winter. This is how they dwelt, being the guardians of their own citizens and the leaders of the Hellenes, who were their willing followers. And they took care to preserve the same number of men and women through all time, being so many as were required for warlike purposes, then as now-that is to say, about twenty thousand)


The legend tell us, that all the men of Athens voted for the gift of Poseidon and all the women, for the gift of Athena and because there was one woman more than the men, goddess Athena was selected and from her, the city took her name.
To defend the country from the Karian pirates from the sea and the Boeotians from the land, Kekrops, in order to manage better the population, distributed Attica in the following twelve sections: Aphidna, Brauron, Dekeleia, Epakria, Eleusis, Kekropia, Kephisius, Kytherus, Phalerus, Sphettus, Tetrapolis, Thorikus. He also ordered each man to cast a single stone and by counting the stones, it was found that they were twenty thousand inhabitants.


that explained why the egyptian and atlantis are included in my memories.


#28    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

Is it true that first plague of Egypt, so called blood in Nile, redness of nile, can be caused by Thera eruption ? One member mentioned that wind force smoke north and north east but I read once that ash of Thera was found in Nile valley. If so could it cause red Nile?

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#29    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

View Postthe L, on 27 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Is it true that first plague of Egypt, so called blood in Nile, redness of nile, can be caused by Thera eruption ? One member mentioned that wind force smoke north and north east but I read once that ash of Thera was found in Nile valley. If so could it cause red Nile?

The major distribution of the ash from Thera was northeast/east. Any ash that would have made it to the Egyptian delta was of a depth of 0.1 centimeters/0.039370 inches. This is nowhere near deep enough to cause a red Nile.

Attached File  AshfromMinoanEruption.jpg   82.29K   4 downloads

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The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#30    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

Thanks cormac!

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 27 January 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Minoan civilisation probably collapsed because of external invasion by Greeks

Bronze age civilization on Crete was possibly destroyed when Hittites vanished. Maybe after battle of Kadesh Hittites were weaken so when strong Assyrians came and defeated them at battle in north Mesopotamia when Hittites were under Tudhaliya IV, son of Hatussili. 1237 to 1209 was decline of Hittites. After him only four rulers ruled Hittites. Minoans traded with Egypt and with Hittites. And they were 3rd world country comparing to Mesopotamia, Egypt, Hittites. They probably depends on trading with Hittites. Or they were Hittites ally so when Assyrians came and conquer everything no one wanted to have nothing with people who were allied against new ruler.
Imo, collapse of Hittites cause Minoan fall.. .

But there is NONE historian in world who can say for certain why bronze age civilization in Europe collapsed.

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