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Why would anyone want religion to be true?

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#1    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:39 AM

Before this post is accused of an unnecessary attack on religion, i would like to state that i am currently writing an extended essay on this very topic.

Before starting i would like to make a distinction between deism and theism. Deism is the belief in a creator of the universe, life and everything. No more. Theism is the belief in a specific creator, as described in religions (arguably creator(s) but my focus is on monotheistic religion). Now for any person to say they are of a certain religion (lets use Christianity as an example) there is only one, rather huge, step from deism. The bible.

The only thing that separates a deist from a Christian is the bible. So why would anyone wish the bible to be true? Why would anyone wish a totalitarian leader to have access to your inner most thoughts, to never leave you alone and to constantly watch over you. Why would you want to worship a being that created millions and millions of different species of animals, only to have 99% of them go extinct. Some creator.

So the main point of my essay is this: If a religion were true, it has two furthers implications. Either, the god of that specific religion is an inept creator, most of his creations dying out, who has created a species of higher primate (us) that are morally superior or that the god of that specific religion is evil, callous and indifferent to the well being of us, let alone any other animal.

There is an essay more i could add to this argument but i'm keeping it relatively short to encourage back and fourth debate.

Thoughts?


#2    and then

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:34 AM

As a Christian I can say that I desire my faith to be born out true because I can see the absolute horror that mankind imposes on itself due to unrestrained self will run riot.  Just one current example is that a single man in Syria has caused the deaths of over a hundred thousand of his fellow human beings just for the sake of remaining in a position of power that he was born to - that he did not even work to acquire.  And he is far from being alone.  Each person, all of us, has defects of character that will lead in time to harm for others who have done us no real harm.  We do not always even want to harm them.  Our very nature bumps against the nature of others and conflicts occur.  Christ's message is about doing good to others above all else.  Striving always to never harm our neighbors.  I desire that such a way of life come to overshadow the whole of the earth.  The irony is that such a situation would in itself seem a form of "slavery" to many of mortal mind.  We as a race do not want to control ourselves nor have anything else do so.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#3    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:03 AM

Ironic i feel, that you bring up syria, who's regime is under fundamentalist muslim control. Ok, so even though i would argue that if Christianity were true, all the things you just mentioned are evidence for god being callous and 'evil', lets forget about that. Why Christianity? why that religion? why not islam or judaism? why not create your own, better religion? Take the people and remove levidicus and deiderus and you've already got a far better religion. What i'm asking is why do you believe in the bible, why does all that make christianity true?


#4    highdesert50

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:52 AM

It seems you are attempting to describe the nature of God. Might I argue that because humans are spiritual beings, we seek spiritual explanation. Thus, religion becomes simply a manifestation of man's attempt to describe God in terms that can be translated into fundamental precepts that guide one's action in the context of a civilization. The one emergent theme that seems to permeate descriptive religious text is that God is love and we too are endowed with this trait. This, of course, begs for definition and again the emergent theme is that this love is non-conditional, impartial, and allows considerable flexibility in dealing with our rather rebellious natures. So, I believe that attempting to describe God as inept, callous, or evil is to describe love as the same. One cannot apply condition to love, or God.


#5    skepticism1

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:09 AM

I myself am not describing god, i am simply extrapolating definitions from the bible. And while your comment does describe a very fine world view, i must say that it is simply not Christianity. Or any other religion for that matter.

What about the crusades? what about Noah's ark? What about the Rwandan genocide or the history of suffering and war? What about the girl in Austria who was locked in her basement by her father, raped and sodomized most nights. She bore her fathers children, who were born in this dungeon, witnessing and being involved in this torture. Where was god's love for her? For a universe created by a god who, as you say, is essentially love, theirs not a whole lot of it.

And although your argument was very well written (Honestly), your main point was god is love, loves not evil, so gods not evil.

Edited by skepticism1, 19 September 2013 - 04:15 AM.


#6    and then

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:35 AM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

I myself am not describing god, i am simply extrapolating definitions from the bible. And while your comment does describe a very fine world view, i must say that it is simply not Christianity. Or any other religion for that matter.

What about the crusades? what about Noah's ark? What about the Rwandan genocide or the history of suffering and war? What about the girl in Austria who was locked in her basement by her father, raped and sodomized most nights. She bore her fathers children, who were born in this dungeon, witnessing and being involved in this torture. Where was god's love for her? For a universe created by a god who, as you say, is essentially love, theirs not a whole lot of it.

And although your argument was very well written (Honestly), your main point was god is love, loves not evil, so gods not evil.
He describes the world as Christ would have it be.  You seem fixed on the entirety of the O.T. and seem unable to imagine a new revelation given by the Creator.  If one cannot accept Christ at His word then religion is indeed hopeless.  As for Judaism and Islam - one seeks proof and legalism, the other only submission and blood.

  Imagination is the power in the turn of a phrase.

#7    danielost

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:09 AM

Mormon belief is that god will not judge yo'u.  You will judge yourself. You will remove yourself from gods presence until you find a comfortable distance to live for ever.  This is the hell that most other christian faiths preach about.  The shame of what you could have been and what you have become.  But, this isn't hell this is part of heaven.  Agin mormon belief is that satan and his angels and some humans will be cast into outer darkness. Which is a lack of god's presence. These souls will not eat of the tree of life and slowly disapate back into the universe. Of course the presence of god is love.

Edited by danielost, 19 September 2013 - 06:10 AM.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#8    SpiritWriter

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:30 AM

Religion is a practice that one finds in order to bring spiritual wealth, balance, goodness and a connection to "the heavenly realms, etc..." into their life. Through its practice, practitioners do find some truth that is outstanding. Understanding this, even if they venture out of their religion, most come running back because with their right minds they can differentiate the real from the fake, what works well and what does not for them. In life, we are all meant to endure hardship. We must face this hardship with or without the guidance of the higher power. Some would chose this way or that but for me I know not going the God route would ruin me.

Every man has a different story and I will tell you that I cannot live without God and that God Alone, even by himself gives me purpose. You may not understand that, but when I dedicate myself to him, all is well and all is alright.

There are certain ways we decide in our minds we have to ascribe to. To follow that way you must be strict on yourself, the road will ALWAYS be narrow. It is ok for some, and necessary for many to have that way ascribed to them so that they can see some things more clearly.

We are not responsible for what we believe, except for when making our choices. All that we thought or know has been made aware by us with our minds, but only because these things come to our attention. There are many many many forms of religion but most of them have basic ingredients, these are: ritual/divination/law/exercise, these things combined with strictness of self and honoring god is like scientific medicine. The practice is the religion. I will always go back to that, that is where its at.



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Please try prayer and fasting if you don't believe me. Would you not honor God while petitioning a request?

Edited by SpiritWriter, 19 September 2013 - 06:56 AM.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#9    danielost

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:52 AM

Judism brings communication with god.
Christenanity brings hope.
Islam brings forced obeying .

One of these is not of god.  I will leave it for each of you to decide which one.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#10    danielost

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:58 AM

View Postskepticism1, on 19 September 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

I myself am not describing god, i am simply extrapolating definitions from the bible. And while your comment does describe a very fine world view, i must say that it is simply not Christianity. Or any other religion for that matter.

What about the crusades? what about Noah's ark? What about the Rwandan genocide or the history of suffering and war? What about the girl in Austria who was locked in her basement by her father, raped and sodomized most nights. She bore her fathers children, who were born in this dungeon, witnessing and being involved in this torture. Where was god's love for her? For a universe created by a god who, as you say, is essentially love, theirs not a whole lot of it.

And although your argument was very well written (Honestly), your main point was god is love, loves not evil, so gods not evil.

God was there. Who do you think put the people in the right place and time to rescue this girl and her children.  The same being that put the gentleman here inthe states to rescue the three ladies from their ten yer ordeal.  And, the same being who in 1989 had the earth quake when there was the fewest number on the freeway or sleeping.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#11    Rlyeh

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:28 AM

Many don't see their religion that way. If everyone followed <insert religion> the world would be a better place, and no amount of counter examples could change their mind. Just look at how the deity is held unaccountable for it's actions, it knows best even if "best" is a p*** poor job.


#12    Rlyeh

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:30 AM

View Postdanielost, on 19 September 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

God was there. Who do you think put the people in the right place and time to rescue this girl and her children.  The same being that put the gentleman here inthe states to rescue the three ladies from their ten yer ordeal.  And, the same being who in 1989 had the earth quake when there was the fewest number on the freeway or sleeping.
And put the three ladies through their ten year ordeal.


#13    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:34 AM

Yea that's the way I see it -- if everyone was a Buddhist (just my type of Buddhist, of course) the world would be a lot better, at least in some ways but maybe not in other ways (we would spend more time studying our navels and less time being challenged by alternative ideas).


#14    danielost

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:07 PM

View Postdanielost, on 19 September 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:



God was there. Who do you think put the people in the right place and time to rescue this girl and her children.  The same being that put the gentleman here inthe states to rescue the three ladies from their ten yer ordeal.  And, the same being who in 1989 had the earth quake when there was the fewest number on the freeway or sleeping.

View PostRlyeh, on 19 September 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

And put the three ladies through their ten year ordeal.

View PostRlyeh, on 19 September 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

And put the three ladies through their ten year ordeal.

No god didn't put through it.  The mn who kidnapped them did.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#15    danielost

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:20 PM

A better question.  Why wouldn't you want your religeon to be true.  This includes atheists.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/





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