85 replies to this topic

[Tiggs]

Mr Walker, on 17 April 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

The first suggests that a person, with god, can do anything. The second just suggests that, in the case of god, all things are possible.

  eg  the same thing could be applied to one's mother. In the first you are saying  you could do anything with your mother's help. In the second your mother is capable of doing anything.(A suggestion also of unpredictability and unlimited potentiality)

In that case, the latter. The former would only be true if it also happened to follow God's will.

[karmakazi]

Beckys_Mom, on 17 April 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

"*  So  this pyramid scheme  is not like any other pyramid scheme,  I can double my money on this.?....I cannot wait to tell my folks, they will be so proud.!!!  "..

Glad to hear that BM, because I knew a guy once who had been tricked into thinking a pyramid scheme was a good idea - he described the "program", and I said "uh... that's a pyramid scheme" and his response...


"No, he specifically told us it wasn't a pyramid scheme!"  


I've never been the con-able type either... usually I hear my friends being given a line and my jaw hits the floor when they buy it.  Sigh.  It's like they can't imagine that people would just lie to them like that.

[Mr Walker]

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name='Beckys_Mom' timestamp='1334663443' post='4268200']
Mr Walker... read this quote  from my previous post...

As you can clearly see,  the words  - In general  over all in real life and  on line  .. Does  not in any way say -  Mr Walker !!.....Now it seems regardless  if I have clearly shown  it was not about you personally..  you seem to be a bit too defensive, and there is no call for it... If you do not beleive you fit the description of the people I spoke about various people  all over.. then you will not feel the need to defend yourself  at all ....If you want to keep talking bout yourself, a nicer plan would be to blog it and it may be more fun and  then it can be all about you? Many people do it... it's up to you....... But I am afraid  it would be unfair to derail another thread to talk about you again Mr Walker, so I see no further point in dragging this on ...  Hope you understand..

Fully wired said

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Just as I said, you have made your own brand of religion.What are you going to say to Jesus on judgement day, that you have cherry picked bits of the bible,but you think god slipped up when he wrote the bible and you have rectified the mistakes.


fullywired

You replied, in regard to this post.

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Gotta agree with you there... And to add he is not the only perosn to make up their own brand of Christianity

The he is me   And so, indeed, you deed begin  your comments with reference to me I already said that did not upset me but it was WHY i felt able to respond legitimately. It is NOT being "defensive" to defend yourself.   Yes, I do "make up", or construct, my own brand of christianity. Every person does this with religios belief and with atheism or agnosticism. . My forms of worship are close to many christians and far away from others. So what?
Now having cleared that up, this is a forum for discussion. like you, in describing my pov it is often necessary to explain where it comes from and why i hold it, otherwise it will make no sense to other readers. I apprecaite you have ben around long enough to know my pov well. But others read these posts also.

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Logic...knowledge that  fictional monsters    like werewolves, zombies, vampires  ect are just fictional characters and  not real....  I am not under  any obligation to suck in  stories from everyone and anyone.. I have a mind of my own..I see no point in having a strong mind and not using it to think for myself....

Logic only leads you from a atarting point to a conclusion. Your conclusion will depend on your starting point Your answer is a good one and reasoned but also limited by prior belief You believ those things are not real . What about bigfoot, yeti,  fairie folk, flying saucers, alien beings, ghosts  etc. Do you look at each case individually, or simply dismiss them all. Can the same logic (Ie there is no evidence that i know of for their existence) be applied equally to them all

And how then do you respond to a person whi has encountered aliens or ghosts or angels. Or did encounter bigfoot alone in an american forest.    Do you tell them that they must be mistaken? Actually knowing you, probably not. You allow them their opinion, but dont let it sway your own.
I am not the kind of perosn    that  IE - A sales man can con...you would not hear  me utter the words.......

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** An extended warranty?  How can I loose  whooohoo."

** Time share,  that's just brilliant, were its my prize  I have the golden key ..* does happy dance* ."  .

"*  So  this pyramid scheme  is not like any other pyramid scheme,  I can double my money on this.?....I cannot wait to tell my folks, they will be so proud.!!!  "..

"*.I have no reason to doubt you young man.....So,  you say this new bible, because it is bigger than other bibles, Jesus will guarantee me a good seat in heaven?..and I don't  have to do anything  else?...... The bigger the bible, the more chance I have to that heavenly place??  .......I am SO lucky........I'll take  10 please  ... thanks !! "

*"  So I just give you my credit details and you want my ID..pin numbers.etc.. and you will get back to me?...Oh ok then...got a pen handy? "

"*  The end is near, and you think I should  give you all my savings to warn others  and  sell my home.. ?  ... Ohh I see..  I better call my bank manager then...I hope we have  enough time "

Well you see I always take the extended warranty i am a prudent man. and inmy life it has paid of handsomely.
I get the benefit of a luxury yacht and a skiing lodge using time share and it works very well.Pyramid schemes are great if you get in early enough. I made a small fortune on one    but I would lok at each of the caes above do a risk benefit analysis ask expert advice and work out waht was i t for me and then decide. You can miss out on some good opportuniites by being too skeptical.

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I like to think I have more sense than that  lol ...Sometimes it i safer to be skeptical  and I am not joking... !!

Safer perhaps, but who wants to be safe all the time? The wealthiest people on earth are the risk takers. I am the poorest member of my family because i am the most  prudent/cautious, but I also make money by taking risks.

[socrates.junior]

fullywired, on 17 April 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

You have taken my post out of context ,I was replying to a MW  report that some Archbishop said we all end up in the same place, in Heaven ,I was not expressing any belief in the statement

Sorry about that, my bad. I assumed you were expressing belief in the statement. I was wrong.

[Mr Walker]

Tiggs, on 17 April 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

In that case, the latter. The former would only be true if it also happened to follow God's will.

Thanks. Thats what I would have inferred or assumed,  but it illustrates the difficulty of clear comunication in written form, where pronunciation and emphasis is not made clear.

[Beckys_Mom]

Mr Walker, on 18 April 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

Fully wired said

You replied, in regard to this post.
The he is me   And so, indeed, you deed begin  your comments with reference to me

Yes, I do "make up", or construct, my own brand of christianity.
( SNIP )

Fully says  you invented your own brand..... I agreed with Fully.. and you came on to agree you do too..  So I seen no problem there

The rest of my post  is clearly and noted not about you and is noted as  such .....   And as I said a few times before    I still refuse to  turn another thread about you .As I said to you many times before .it is unfair to readers and it is not fair to derail a thread to make it all about you.. I am about to give birth any day now..I cannot commit to threads that can drag on... I just post randomly and  bide my time to relax  

I notice the rest of your post is the usual  fun banter .. I have no time for them at present. ( wish I did to be honest lol ) ..  But  I hope someone else gives you the attention soon...I normally would join in for fun and banter with you..but  with my current condition and what I need focus on more .. you will have to excuse me..I am sure someone else will have fun with you   .  

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 18 April 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[chiole]

everwonder, on 12 April 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian 10 -You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours. 9 -You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt. 8 -You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God. 7 -Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees! 6 -You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky. 5 -You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old. 4 -You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs --though excluding those in all rival sects -will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving." 3 -While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity. 2 -You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. 1 -You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -but still call yourself a Christian.

*SOURCE - Please keep in mind that when quoting websites you need to cite all sources, thank you ~ PA


What's ur thought on these or is it totaly wrong?

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian 10 -You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours. WRONG - WE JUST DON’T BELIEVE IN THEM 9 -You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt. [b]WRONG – PLEASE ASK THEM TO DELIVER THE PROOF OF WHICH THEY HAVE THE MISSING LINK AND THAT’S ALL NO FURTHER PROOF WAS EVER DISCOVERED. 8 -You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God. WRONG – THE BIBLE ACTUALLY SPEAKS OF SPIRIT’S. 7 -Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees! WRONG – THERE IS ACTUALLY VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEIR RELIGION AND CHRISTIANITY, THEY JUST CALL GOD ALLAH WHERE AS WE CALL HIM FATHER OR GOD, THEY BELIEVE IN MOHAMED AND BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS A PROFIT, SO I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THE FUSS. 6 -You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky. WRONG – WHO SAID IT ISN’T TRUE, HAVE YOU ACTUALLY READ ABOUT THE GREEK GODS, THEIR STORIES ARE VERY CLOSE TO CHRISTIAN STORIES THEY JUST GAVE THEIR GODS DIFFERENT NAMES AND EVEN THE BIBLE MENTIONS OTHER GODS, NOW ISN'T THAT FUNNY? 5 -You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old. WRONG – THAT IS TOTAL BULL – IF MOSES AND THE REST OF THEM GREW TO OVER 900 YEARS OLD HOW OLD DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THE EARTH IS. 4 -You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs --though excluding those in all rival sects -will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving." WRONG – WE ARE NOT HERE TO JUDGE SO WE DON’T AND THAT IS OUR BELIEF. 3 -While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity. WRONG AGAIN – THERE HAS BEEN TOO MANY ARCHAEOLOGICAL DISCOVERIES THAT ACTUALLY PROOVE THE BIBLE STORIES CORRECT. 2 -You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. 1 -You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -but still call yourself a Christian. – WRONG – WE KNOW JUST AS MUCH ABOUT YOU AS YOU KNOW ABOUT US, WE JUST DON’T SHOOT OUR MOUTHS OFF.

[Sherapy]

Mr Walker, on 18 April 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

Fully wired said

You replied, in regard to this post.






The he is me   And so, indeed, you deed begin  your comments with reference to me I already said that did not upset me but it was WHY i felt able to respond legitimately. It is NOT being "defensive" to defend yourself.   Yes, I do "make up", or construct, my own brand of christianity. Every person does this with religios belief and with atheism or agnosticism. . My forms of worship are close to many christians and far away from others. So what?
Now having cleared that up, this is a forum for discussion. like you, in describing my pov it is often necessary to explain where it comes from and why i hold it, otherwise it will make no sense to other readers. I apprecaite you have ben around long enough to know my pov well. But others read these posts also.

Logic only leads you from a atarting point to a conclusion.  Your conclusion will depend on your starting point Your answer is a good one and reasoned but also limited by prior belief You believ those things are not real . What about bigfoot, yeti,  fairie folk, flying saucers, alien beings, ghosts  etc. Do you look at each case individually, or simply dismiss them all. Can the same logic (Ie there is no evidence that i know of for their existence) be applied equally to them all

And how then do you respond to a person whi has encountered aliens or ghosts or angels. Or did encounter bigfoot alone in an american forest.    Do you tell them that they must be mistaken? Actually knowing you, probably not. You allow them their opinion, but dont let it sway your own.
I am not the kind of perosn    that  IE - A sales man can con...you would not hear  me utter the words.......

Well you see I always take the extended warranty i am a prudent man. and inmy life it has paid of handsomely.
I get the benefit of a luxury yacht and a skiing lodge using time share and it works very well.Pyramid schemes are great if you get in early enough. I made a small fortune on one    but I would lok at each of the caes above do a risk benefit analysis ask expert advice and work out waht was i t for me and then decide. You can miss out on some good opportuniites by being too skeptical.


Safer perhaps, but who wants to be safe all the time? The wealthiest people on earth are the risk takers. I am the poorest member of my family because i am the most  prudent/cautious, but I also make money by taking risks.

I do agree that logic leads to conclusions, but I'd add that  since inference and deduction seems to be in all of us (and if piqued), perhaps this interest  will cultivate a way to  flesh out  fallacies (for very good reason ) since we live in a world that has its fair share of BS.


Digging  further into the laws of logic, We are taught  that form, generality, and variability
under gird logic/thinking.

I'd argue these things tend to show up a lot in every day life in different ways, different modes, in different situations . For instance, to be able to separate the emotion of an argument from the substance/crux of the argument  is a great springboard/starting place to combat prejudice, and it is something you do all the time in your posts.  

So, where I do agree that logic is conclusion oriented; I think it has far more viable and practical use then your post implies.  

Just my two cents MW.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Sherapy, 18 April 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Mr Walker]

Sherapy, on 18 April 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

I do agree that logic leads to conclusions, but I'd add that  since inference and deduction is in all of as (and if piqued), perhaps  will cultivate a way to  fleshing out  fallacies, (for very good reason )since  we live in a world  full of BS.



Digging  further into the laws of logic, I find a few ideas that under gird logic/thinking and that is  generality, form, and variability .

I'd argue these things tend to show up a lot in every day life in different ways, different modes, in different situations . For instance; to be able to separate the emotion of an argument from the substance/crux of the argument  is great springboard/starting place to combat prejudice and it is something you do all the time in your posts.  

So where I do agree that logic is conclusion oriented, I think it has far more viable and practical  then your post implies.  

Just my two cents MW.

Your thoughts?

MY point was simple. Logic leads from point to point within the mind. One's starting point wil determine ones concluding point, when one uses logic. If one is prepared to vary ones starting point, one can reach differnt conclusions, using logic, but if one is fixated on a single starting point, then logic will invariably lead you to the same conclusion.

That is  part of the nature of logic.  Of course logic itself comes in a variety of forms, some more complex than others. And it is one of the terms and concepts that some disciplines like philosophy have claimed/evolved as their own. In using the term  logic, I was  thinking of "simple logic", as used in the concept of everyday logical thinking, reasoning and deduction. The sort of thing humans have used for millenia to reason and problem- solve and make sense of the natural order.

Logic only works using the data available to its user. That also limits its effectiveness in reaching scientifically correct conclusions. THat is very evident, historically, but less evident to people now, because we know what past peoples did not know, but dont always know what we do not know. What we dont know we dont know, can seriously effect the outcome of logical thinking but we will not be aware of that..

Of course logic can be used, in a different way and for a differnt purpose,  by including a variety of variables to compensate for the unknowns or to vary a number of knowns.. In that way, we can hypothesise different scenarios and extrapolate different conclusions. But that form of logic is not the type BM was using to conclude there are no zombies werewolves etc.

Edited by Mr Walker, 18 April 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[Sherapy]

Mr Walker, on 18 April 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

MY point was simple. Logic leads from point to point within the mind. One's starting point wil determine ones concluding point, when one uses logic. If one is prepared to vary ones starting point, one can reach differnt conclusions, using logic, but if one is fixated on a single starting point, then logic will invariably lead you to the same conclusion.

That is  part of the nature of logic.  Of course logic itself comes in a variety of forms, some more complex than others. And it is one of the terms and concepts that some disciplines like philosophy have claimed/evolved as their own. In using the term  logic, I was  thinking of "simple logic", as used in the concept of everyday logical thinking, reasoning and deduction. The sort of thing humans have used for millenia to reason and problem- solve and make sense of the natural order.

Logic only works using the data available to its user. That also limits its effectiveness in reaching scientifically correct conclusions. THat is very evident, historically, but less evident to people now, because we know what past peoples did not know, but dont always know what we do not know. What we dont know we dont know, can seriously effect the outcome of logical thinking but we will not be aware of that..

Of course logic can be used, in a different way and for a differnt purpose,  by including a variety of variables to compensate for the unknowns or to vary a number of knowns.. In that way, we can hypothesise different scenarios and extrapolate different conclusions. But that form of logic is not the type BM was using to conclude there are no zombies werewolves etc.

Not a problem MW, I am clear  now that  you were keeping it simple and why . In truth, I was actually interested in your thoughts on the other uses of logic and it's practicality and it seems we are on the same page.
Thank you,  for posting.

Edited by Sherapy, 18 April 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

karmakazi, on 17 April 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Glad to hear that BM, because I knew a guy once who had been tricked into thinking a pyramid scheme was a good idea - he described the "program", and I said "uh... that's a pyramid scheme" and his response...

I feel so very sorry for people who fall for these con artist  get rich quick schemes...  There is an old saying -  A fool and their money, are easy parted....!!

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   and his response...   "No, he specifically told us it wasn't a pyramid scheme!"                         

Ha ha   I have heard that one  so often... The Simpsons took the piss out of the whole thing too... They featured a con artist that  had a funny shape drawn and said  ..- "First, let me assure you that this is not one of those shady pyramid schemes you've been hearing about. No sir.... Our model is the trapezoid! !!! .. He hears a police siren  outside and he jumps through a near by window  lol  

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       I've never been the con-able type either... usually I hear my friends being given a line and my jaw hits the floor when they buy it. Sigh. It's like they can't imagine that people would just lie to them like that    

It is a pity people can and do fall for them all...   Some will get angry at you if you poke fun at the scam they are falling for, because they beleive that they will make the cash...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 19 April 2012 - 08:55 AM.