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Sands Of Sorrow (1950)


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#16    and then

and then

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:23 PM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 01 October 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

But the many orthodox Jews believe the Messiah leads them back to the land. That they cant return to the land until AFTER the Messiah arrives.

Some that have voiced an opinion here, believe there are many messiahs and that Theodor Herzl was one of them, even though he was a secular atheist and had relationships with prostitutes and believed all Jews should convert to Christianity as a solution to staunch anti-semitism. Two of his children committed suicide and a third went mad.

Anyways, I stick to the human issues, Jesus did warn that they will be identified by their fruits.
You keep talking about this as if it matters.  They are in the land.  They - short of being exterminated by their neighbors - will remain forever in the land.  You have chosen who you support - as have I.  Time will tell who is right.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#17    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 09:31 PM

View PostYamato, on 01 October 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

There shouldn't even be a "tunnel" let alone an "illegal" one.   If people weren't being deprived of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, there wouldn't be any need for bullets, bombs and booby traps.  Such as their reality is, there's a need for weapons to defend themselves from terrorism and tyranny.  

Want to put the goons out of business?  Tear down the damn walls.

That's an idealistic take of the tunnels. The borders are there for the transportation of goods in a legal way. No nation's frontiers should be breached by underground tunnels no matter what reason/motive there may be. As a matter of fact the tunnels are used to smuggle huge quantities of subsidized fuel, building materials...etc. (causing huge shortages & crisis in Egypt). Cars, including stolen cars, are also smuggled, as well as weapons and terrorists. The latter killed 16 unarmed Egyptian soldiers not so long ago.  

Quote

   There are tunnels belonging to Hamas, and which are solely used by the Hamas organization and their affiliates, as well as “public” tunnels. It costs around $80,000 to dig a tunnel, depending on the tunnel’s size and length; however this price is more than worth it as a single tunnel could net the owner $150,000 per day"
http://m.asharq-e.co...shed - Features

Bear in mind that the smuggled goods are mostly subsidized, and that the degree of poverty in Egypt is far worse than that in Gaza. No matter how 'justified' it might seem to be, one does not snatch the livelihood of the poorest to give the 'poor'! Simply put, the people in Egypt are angry


#18    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 09:43 PM

View Postand then, on 01 October 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

That has not always been so.  I think when all this began, Egypt was one of the wealthier immediate neighbors but the point I make is that the Palestinians are Arabs.  All their neighbors are Arabs and some of those quite wealthy like the oil kingdoms.... there can be no doubt that if they had acted toward their blood relations as the Jews of Israel did for the many tens of thousands of displaced Jews then the problem might not exist at all.  I do not blame one of these nations more than another.  But I believe it is self evident that the hatred of Arab for Jew spoken of in the Qur'an sets a wall between these peoples far greater than any  edifice of mortar and stone.

No, it has not always been so, but several wars, thousands of dead, and destroyed cities...etc. can wreak havoc with any country's economy. Egypt has shouldered more than its fair share and was more often met with ingratitude than not. My point is that succor should now come more from those whose contribution was mostly speeches, and that Egypt should concentrate on taking care of its people; 45% now live at or under the poverty line, about 50% of Egyptian children are suffering from malnourishment...in terms of a population of 83 million, that means there are more Egyptians than Palestinians who are in need of Egypt's limited resources. Count Egypt out!


#19    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 10:42 PM

View Postand then, on 01 October 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I'm not proposing that they will be in Israel.  As far as I'm concerned they need to be separated and live in different countries.
There are those who might argue that they already do live in different countries.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#20    and then

and then

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 11:17 PM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 01 October 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

There are those who might argue that they already do live in different countries.
I meant a true country called Palestine.   I think it's possible IF a spirit of compromise could descend.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#21    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:44 AM

compromise on both sides, obviously.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#22    and then

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 02:30 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 02 October 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

compromise on both sides, obviously.
Yes I think the Israelis will have to eventually try again but I fear it will only cost them more blood.  It seems that when they are unwilling to give up land for promises then the Palestinians start a new uprising.  When a protective wall/fence is built to stop infiltrations and bombings(and it works) they are universally condemned.  Perhaps if the Palestinians were willing to guarantee non violence instead of simply saying they cannot control all their various actors?  I mean, if there is no entity in true control then how can any "promise" be kept?  I really believe that a majority of Israelis would be willing to give up even portions of Jerusalem to finally be left in peace.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#23    Yamato

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:34 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 01 October 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

That's an idealistic take of the tunnels. The borders are there for the transportation of goods in a legal way. No nation's frontiers should be breached by underground tunnels no matter what reason/motive there may be. As a matter of fact the tunnels are used to smuggle huge quantities of subsidized fuel, building materials...etc. (causing huge shortages & crisis in Egypt). Cars, including stolen cars, are also smuggled, as well as weapons and terrorists. The latter killed 16 unarmed Egyptian soldiers not so long ago.  

http://m.asharq-e.co...shed - Features

Bear in mind that the smuggled goods are mostly subsidized, and that the degree of poverty in Egypt is far worse than that in Gaza. No matter how 'justified' it might seem to be, one does not snatch the livelihood of the poorest to give the 'poor'! Simply put, the people in Egypt are angry
I think borders are there so we can treat the people on one side of them differently from the people on the other side.  

A blanket opposition to tunnels is only idealistic if there are no tunnels, right?    I think of what would eliminate the need for those tunnels.  If the Zionist racket wasn't blockading Gaza from the Mediterranean Sea, maybe the "illegal" and even stolen merchandise could come in by boat.   And thus need nothing to do with Egypt.   With state prohibition, black markets always develop.  Egypt's sovereign borders are an important issue and yet the reason why they're at issue at all is tragic.   I won't use this opportunity to descend into another narrative about Israel.  But when Palestine doesn't have any manner of sovereignty to speak of, the tunnels are going to be inevitable.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#24    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:57 AM

View PostYamato, on 02 October 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

I think borders are there so we can treat the people on one side of them differently from the people on the other side.  

A blanket opposition to tunnels is only idealistic if there are no tunnels, right? I think of what would eliminate the need for those tunnels.  If the Zionist racket wasn't blockading Gaza from the Mediterranean Sea, maybe the "illegal" and even stolen merchandise could come in by boat.   And thus need nothing to do with Egypt.   With state prohibition, black markets always develop.  Egypt's sovereign borders are an important issue and yet the reason why they're at issue at all is tragic.   I won't use this opportunity to descend into another narrative about Israel.  But when Palestine doesn't have any manner of sovereignty to speak of, the tunnels are going to be inevitable.

Hello Yamato, it's been some time since we had a discussion :)
The point that is totally missed is that there are roads connecting Gaza an Egypt, these are open particularly since Mursi's government came to power. They should be used to transport 'unsubsidized' legal merchandise, customs paid, travelers' papers checked etc. It is not the case because frankly, the tunnels are used to smuggle stolen cars (including Egyptian police cars during the early months of the revolution), fuel, medication, cement...etc. Profits are made by the calculation of the difference of price (subsidies), black market in Gaza, and the taxes that Hamas, not Egypt, imposes on only one end of the tunnel. It is almost like a Robin Hood in reverse! Hamas maintains the tunnels as an easy inexpensive source of revenue, estimated at 1 billion/year. In the meanwhile, electricity outages & fuel shortages plunge cities in darkness for long hours while long queues block the streets, prices soar in Egypt and its the poor who suffer the most. Hamas' conflict with the PA complicates negotiations, so they turn on Egypt! Keep in mind that Hamas has had zero interest in founding a democratic system in Gaza, or in ensuring the basic rights & freedoms of its people; tunnelling under the borders and grabbing what rightfully belongs to the poor in Egypt was an easier option, it's a choice made by Hamas.. Here are some figures:

Quote


An Egyptian source informed Asharq Al-Awsat that “the tunnels have become the primary source of income for the Hamas government” adding “if the subsidized price of a liter of fuel is 80 piasters [in Egypt]…it costs 5 pounds in Gaza” adding “this shows you the kind of profits that we are talking about.”

Reports indicate that approximately 500,000 liters of fuel are smuggled into the Gaza Strip every day. The Egyptian source stressed that “this creates astronomical profits.”

Egypt estimates that the tunnels generate approximately one billion dollars per year, whilst economic experts in Gaza place the figure at a little lower than this.

However nobody knows precisely how much Hamas is making from the tunnels and illegal trade. A source informed Asharq Al-Awsat that Hamas’s income would depend on what is being smuggled, adding “some people place a tax cut on every kilo that is smuggled, others on every ton.”

He added “they charge around 50 cents for liter of petrol, 8 cents for every packet of cigarettes, $15 on every ton of steel and $10 on every ton of cement.”

The source also informed Asharq Al-Awsat that “some goods, such as cars, can be taxed as much as 25 percent, in addition to a $2,000 flat fee.”

The Egyptian Al-Ahram newspaper estimated that 13,000 cars were smuggled into the Gaza Strip via the tunnels in 2011.

The source stressed that Hamas taxes every item that enters the Gaza Strip via the tunnels.
http://m.asharq-e.co...shed - Features

Edited by meryt-tetisheri, 02 October 2012 - 04:01 AM.


#25    and then

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:52 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 02 October 2012 - 03:57 AM, said:

Hello Yamato, it's been some time since we had a discussion :)
The point that is totally missed is that there are roads connecting Gaza an Egypt, these are open particularly since Mursi's government came to power. They should be used to transport 'unsubsidized' legal merchandise, customs paid, travelers' papers checked etc. It is not the case because frankly, the tunnels are used to smuggle stolen cars (including Egyptian police cars during the early months of the revolution), fuel, medication, cement...etc. Profits are made by the calculation of the difference of price (subsidies), black market in Gaza, and the taxes that Hamas, not Egypt, imposes on only one end of the tunnel. It is almost like a Robin Hood in reverse! Hamas maintains the tunnels as an easy inexpensive source of revenue, estimated at 1 billion/year. In the meanwhile, electricity outages & fuel shortages plunge cities in darkness for long hours while long queues block the streets, prices soar in Egypt and its the poor who suffer the most. Hamas' conflict with the PA complicates negotiations, so they turn on Egypt! Keep in mind that Hamas has had zero interest in founding a democratic system in Gaza, or in ensuring the basic rights & freedoms of its people; tunnelling under the borders and grabbing what rightfully belongs to the poor in Egypt was an easier option, it's a choice made by Hamas.. Here are some figures:


http://m.asharq-e.co...shed - Features
I figure to be jumped over this question but I simply must ask.  If there is such destitution and poverty in the Gaza...where is all this money for inflated priced merchandise coming from?  These are significant amounts of cash that someone is spending yes?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#26    GoSC

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:45 AM

View Postand then, on 01 October 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

You keep talking about this as if it matters.  They are in the land.  They - short of being exterminated by their neighbors - will remain forever in the land.  You have chosen who you support - as have I.  Time will tell who is right.

Yeah, squatting on Palestinian land.

Imperialism
Colonialism
Nationalism
Fascism
Occupation
Apartheid

I wonder if anyone persons besides the Jews had committed these acts and followed precisely this same history, crossed every "t" and dotted every "i", would you defend them?

That is someone reclaimed their homelands after nearly 2000 years of absence. Would you defend them? Or would you be outraged?

And the peoples that lived on that land in their nearly 2000 year absense, had no right to keep their land? Or put up a resistance?

Lets remove the Bible rhetoric out of the equation a moment. Answer honestly.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#27    and then

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:56 AM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 02 October 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

Yeah, squatting on Palestinian land.

Imperialism
Colonialism
Nationalism
Fascism
Occupation
Apartheid

I wonder if anyone persons besides the Jews had committed these acts and followed precisely this same history, crossed every "t" and dotted every "i", would you defend them?

That is someone reclaimed their homelands after nearly 2000 years of absence. Would you defend them? Or would you be outraged?

And the peoples that lived on that land in their nearly 2000 year absense, had no right to keep their land? Or put up a resistance?

Lets remove the Bible rhetoric out of the equation a moment. Answer honestly.
What part of "Christian Zionist" as a description of my beliefs do you not understand?  Of course the displaced people can put up a resistance.  It doesn't mean they will succeed.  The Canaanites were pretty much slaughtered to a man woman and child when Israel first descended on the land.  Hey Bug..... I don't make the rules...I just follow them.  I believe there is a Creator with a plan and since things seem to be eerily coming to fruition within the span of my life it makes me eager to be on the correct team at this particular juncture.  You seem hell bent (pardon the pun) to disavow what God Himself has said will happen.  I try to live my life based on that "rhetoric" so I can't set it aside.  Ultimately it's the only thing that should really matter to any of us.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#28    GoSC

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:32 AM

View Postand then, on 02 October 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

What part of "Christian Zionist" as a description of my beliefs do you not understand?  Of course the displaced people can put up a resistance.  It doesn't mean they will succeed.  The Canaanites were pretty much slaughtered to a man woman and child when Israel first descended on the land.  Hey Bug..... I don't make the rules...I just follow them.  I believe there is a Creator with a plan and since things seem to be eerily coming to fruition within the span of my life it makes me eager to be on the correct team at this particular juncture.  You seem hell bent (pardon the pun) to disavow what God Himself has said will happen.  I try to live my life based on that "rhetoric" so I can't set it aside.  Ultimately it's the only thing that should really matter to any of us.

And what if there is no Israel in 100 years and the Messiah still hasnt returned?

And what about the subject of following the teachings of Christ?

I believe sincerely that God demands justice from all of us including the Jews, and never turn a blind eye to injustice, give voice to the oppressed, etc.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#29    and then

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:41 AM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 02 October 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

And what if there is no Israel in 100 years and the Messiah still hasnt returned?

And what about the subject of following the teachings of Christ?

I believe sincerely that God demands justice from all of us including the Jews, and never turn a blind eye to injustice, give voice to the oppressed, etc.
Then obviously I will have been wrong.  It happens to us humans from time to time.  But I sincerely believe that He is going to return soon.  I agree that we are held accountable for our actions.  I do not believe that supporting Israel (per His word) is a negative thing.  My God man, is it not a sufficient judgment in your mind that 2/3 of all Israel will perish for their sins?  Don't you realize that it appears that you are setting yourself up as judge over God's people?  I would tremble over the judgment you are readying for yourself.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#30    GoSC

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:57 AM

View Postand then, on 02 October 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Then obviously I will have been wrong.  It happens to us humans from time to time.  But I sincerely believe that He is going to return soon.  I agree that we are held accountable for our actions.  I do not believe that supporting Israel (per His word) is a negative thing.  My God man, is it not a sufficient judgment in your mind that 2/3 of all Israel will perish for their sins?  Don't you realize that it appears that you are setting yourself up as judge over God's people?  I would tremble over the judgment you are readying for yourself.

Are you suggesting that Israel deserves a free pass and universal blind eye? It's okay, they're God's people.

Yet that same book says God is no respecter of persons... what about Romans 2:10-12 or Colossians 3:23-25?

Edited by Ambush Bug, 02 October 2012 - 10:58 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).




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