94 replies to this topic

[psyche101]

spud the mackem, on 12 February 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

We class ourselves as Intelligent Life,yet we are not intelligent enough to stop wars,or feed the starving hungry,nor accomodate poor people with homes,nor educate the poor.Yet we are seeking out other civilisations.?.What king of intelligence is that ?.

I do not think any of the above has anything to do with intelligence, it has everything to do with greed though.

[Frank Merton]

highdesert50, on 11 February 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Humans suffer from anthropomorphism or we tend to assign human characteristics to non-human objects, e.g. Aesop's fables, human face on Mars' surface etc. We expect the billions of random events, or engineered events depending upon one's philosophical bent, that allowed us to evolve to our current state has also occurred elsewhere and evolved a comparable entity who communicates in much the same manner ... That's a very lofty expectation.

We might as well make anthropomorphic assumptions as we start on this venture; it improves our odds.

[Frank Merton]

Personally I don't think "they" are out there close enough that we stand any chance of ever encountering them.  This comes from considerations regarding evolution and how unlikely we in reality are.

However, these considerations could easily be way wrong, so I think it behooves us to look every way we can think of regardless.

[highdesert50]

The assignment of anthropomorphic attributes suggests that the other entities have the same social, emotional, and mental capabilities of humans. As researchers we need to be cognizant that even on this planet, where we share the same eco-system, we see significant diversity in lifeforms. This is not to say we should not be empathetic, but we should not assume our traits are those of other forms. For example, look to your cat, he has a very limited vocabulary, yet how many of us speak in "cat." Rather, we typically expect the cat to learn our behaviors and communicate its desires to us. Similarly, we make the assumption that an evolved intelligence of another world will communicate in a form that suites our telecommunications expectations. We also assume that the "ingredients" to form the vacuum tubes, transistors, or integrated circuits exist as do comparable atmospheric conditions that permit radio waves of a expected frequency spectrum to escape the planet. If indeed, this were to all come together and we received radio (RF) communication, then the event would be a miracle of the proportion that might argue that we are purposefully engineered and not just a random compilation of evolutionary events. Or, one might argue, that a sufficiently evolved intelligence might "tailor" an RF transmission to meet our expectations. If so, they are probably already amongst us.

[Tesla II]

As reply to topic title; It is too early to say such things... They are scaning the space for almost 7 decades yet they good fast scan of 86 planets in 3 months now that was a thoroughly job i say...

[psyche101]

highdesert50, on 12 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The assignment of anthropomorphic attributes suggests that the other entities have the same social, emotional, and mental capabilities of humans. As researchers we need to be cognizant that even on this planet, where we share the same eco-system, we see significant diversity in lifeforms. This is not to say we should not be empathetic, but we should not assume our traits are those of other forms. For example, look to your cat, he has a very limited vocabulary, yet how many of us speak in "cat." Rather, we typically expect the cat to learn our behaviors and communicate its desires to us. Similarly, we make the assumption that an evolved intelligence of another world will communicate in a form that suites our telecommunications expectations. We also assume that the "ingredients" to form the vacuum tubes, transistors, or integrated circuits exist as do comparable atmospheric conditions that permit radio waves of a expected frequency spectrum to escape the planet. If indeed, this were to all come together and we received radio (RF) communication, then the event would be a miracle of the proportion that might argue that we are purposefully engineered and not just a random compilation of evolutionary events. Or, one might argue, that a sufficiently evolved intelligence might "tailor" an RF transmission to meet our expectations. If so, they are probably already amongst us.

I do not see it as so much of a problem. Math is Universal, not matter what language you speak 1+1still = 2. Radio waves also abound in the system, despite concerns of "archaic" technology or methods, if Aliens are listening to the stars, and I am sure they would, then they would be able to receive a transmission from us. We thought we were getting an Alien message that turned out to bea Pulsar. I do not think we need to pick up the phone and say "Hello ET, How is your system today?" But rather a slower process beginning with numbers, and perhaps evolving into a digital format. As in the movie/novel Contact, a prime number sequence would be recognised as an artificial source.

[Frank Merton]

I'm not sure mathematics is so universal, and if so why numbers?  Why not music or geometry or something we haven't imagined.  Still, numbers seems the best place to start.

[bison]

highdesert50, on 12 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

The assignment of anthropomorphic attributes suggests that the other entities have the same social, emotional, and mental capabilities of humans. As researchers we need to be cognizant that even on this planet, where we share the same eco-system, we see significant diversity in lifeforms. This is not to say we should not be empathetic, but we should not assume our traits are those of other forms. For example, look to your cat, he has a very limited vocabulary, yet how many of us speak in "cat." Rather, we typically expect the cat to learn our behaviors and communicate its desires to us. Similarly, we make the assumption that an evolved intelligence of another world will communicate in a form that suites our telecommunications expectations. We also assume that the "ingredients" to form the vacuum tubes, transistors, or integrated circuits exist as do comparable atmospheric conditions that permit radio waves of a expected frequency spectrum to escape the planet. If indeed, this were to all come together and we received radio (RF) communication, then the event would be a miracle of the proportion that might argue that we are purposefully engineered and not just a random compilation of evolutionary events. Or, one might argue, that a sufficiently evolved intelligence might "tailor" an RF transmission to meet our expectations. If so, they are probably already amongst us.

It seems likeliest that we would be able to communicate with  extraterrestrial beings with at least somewhat similar mentalities, and who lived under conditions not too dissimilar to those found on Earth. Given the number of possible planets in this galaxy, it appears that there are more than ample opportunities for such life to exist.
In any case, there are a number of different ways of generating and detecting radio waves. There may be others, of which we are not even aware. All of these use different techniques and materials.
It seems unlikely that  the atmosphere of a habitable planet would be opaque to all possible wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation. If one wavelength couldn't get  through, they could use another. We have the same issues to deal with on this planet. Many wavelengths are absorbed by one part or another of our atmosphere.

[Asadora]

A great thread and wonderful comments which have made me consider this:

Putting aside everything we already 'know' (either know to be actual fact or know to be possible fact) let's consider what if -we- yes, us, Humans are the 'advanced' species and the reason as to why we haven't heard anything from anyone or any other beings, is that -they- are the ones that are not as technologically advanced as we are. I do not suggest this with a tone of Human vanity or Human elitism. This is purely from a 'what if' perspective (regardless of pure scientific fact or knowledge) This consideration is just one of the many hypothetical (as we actually do not know if we are really 'alone') reasons as to why we haven't had anyone knocking on our door or us being able to find a door in which to knock.

So far, according to the article the OP linked, we have only searched a very very small portion of our section of space. (visible section of space based on what our technology is able to provide us). And to be able to do that took some time to process.

Personally, I think overall given the time in which our technology has grown within the last 50 years and given how much our scientific 'awareness' has developed, I am more confident of us, Humans, being able to detect a signal that we may have already overlooked. Its akin to how our brains function when we read. The more we read the more familiar our brains get used to seeing certain words and those words are skipped over.
( http://www.bigsiteof...-instead-of-six )
So, with that understanding, that is why I think we should allow for this and adjust our technological advancements accordingly. As far as I know, we develop our technology and so it makes sense to me to develop that technology on a scale that is not better than our brains but on a scale to where our technology can adjust to help our brains see or in this case 'hear' better, when we use that technology.

'Bark! Bark!'
"What is it?"
'BARK!'
"Hush now. It's no one at the door."
'BARK BARK!'
"Okay, okay. It's nothing I'm sure of it, but show me anyway."
'Bark. (wags tail)'
"What a clever boy! I just checked that mouse trap last week and saw nothing and totally forgot all about it. And yet you managed to tell let me know to go check it. I see there is now a deceased mouse there. Thanks for letting me know.'

I know the above example is a stretch... but I hope it does convey the 'concept' of which I tried to explain without losing the original intention of explanation.
(btw, we don't have mouse problem, but they do like to come inside during colder weather and it's winter in England here.)

Kind Regards.

[bison]

Even on general statistical principles, it's unlikely that we are the first technical civilization in the galaxy, or anywhere near it. There is also the fact that there are a multitude of much, much older stars in the galaxy with suitable compositions to form habitable planets. We have no solid reasons for assuming that life did not arise and progress on planets around many of those stars, long before our sun even formed.  
The SETI scientists are gradually widening the types of signals they can detect, as it becomes technically feasible to do so. The SETI Institute, for which I do volunteer work, has us look through displays of radio energy collected by their radio telescope, and try to pick out significant patterns. They wish to know if the human brain and eye can detect signals, in some instances, which their computers can not.

[cultanorak]

Even if SETI did locate signs of extra terrestrial life on some other planet (which they probably already have) why would they tell the public?

[spud the mackem]

Our technology only took off in the early 1900's, and it now increasing faster daily,just think that your laptop is more powerfull now than what they had on Apollo 13,(quoted by NASA),but we are still babies at the game,so maybe in 50/100 years time we will have the technology to advance to something much more powerfull than radio waves, and then we might pick up a signal or two from beings who use (or have been using),a different sort of contact.Those who arnt as advanced as us will gradually catch up,if/when they discover Electricity.We have to learn to walk before we can run, in technological terms.One Day It Will Happen.

[bison]

yearofthehater, on 12 February 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

Even if SETI did locate signs of extra terrestrial life on some other planet (which they probably already have) why would they tell the public?

Because the organizations that conduct SETI monitoring must struggle for funding, and are underfunded. They are not government entities. If they were to detect a legitimate SETI signal, their long search would be vindicated and funding would pour in. There would be a universal desire to learn as much about the signal as possible, and those who sent it.

Edited by bison, 12 February 2013 - 10:01 PM.

[spud the mackem]

yearofthehater, on 12 February 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

Even if SETI did locate signs of extra terrestrial life on some other planet (which they probably already have) why would they tell the public?

  I dont think something that important could be kept a secret for very long,even the lowest grade worker at these establishments will have some idea that unusual things are happening.It only needs chat, in say the Canteen, to be overheard,and the thing is blown open.

[Sweetpumper]

Quote

SETI search shows no signs of intell. life

Are the arrays pointed at the White House?