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Can't Wish Away Facts About Immigration

illegal immigration

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#31    Michelle

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:06 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 11 May 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

Of course I do not speak for all liberals, especially since I do not identify with liberalism.

This does not truly require anyone from the left to argue since those of you who self-identify with conservatism have your own fellow conservatives to debate with over the validity of the report presented in the OP.

If you don't identify with liberals, who, pray tell, do you identify with? Inquiring minds would like to know.

I've never self-identified myself with conservativism. It is the catagory you have put anyone who doesn't agree with you in.

It's sad you live in such a black and white world.  I suppose from such a high pedestal it would appear that way.


#32    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:37 AM

Sometimes "criminals" are made by bad laws.  This is the case with US immigration policy, and taking a punitive "punishment" attitude against those who would not be in that situation except for the bad law is not just.  People are only trying to improve their lives and the lives of their children.  While being generous this way causes the US some short-term difficulties, in the long run it will end up much better off.


#33    Michelle

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:59 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 May 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

Sometimes "criminals" are made by bad laws.  This is the case with US immigration policy, and taking a punitive "punishment" attitude against those who would not be in that situation except for the bad law is not just.  People are only trying to improve their lives and the lives of their children.  While being generous this way causes the US some short-term difficulties, in the long run it will end up much better off.

So, why have so many successful countries adopted a system where only people who have gainful employment lined up can immigrate? People from the US can't just move to Canada, or even Mexico, without proving they won't be a burden on society and are considered "illegal immigrants" otherwise.

I don't quite get the double standard there.


#34    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:18 AM

I would say it is fine to set up a system of qualifications, although setups that require a job offer are too easy to manipulate.  My standard would be reasonable proficiency in either English or Spanish (the two main American languages, although a case for adding French and ASL to the list could be made), basic numeracy, knowledge of US history and geography, and possession of a usable skill, and an absence of a criminal record.


#35    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:30 AM

Sometimes I wish that those who want immigration to be closed and borders to be stringently patrolled and not to let one family in would have the same thing happen to their families when they came over for a better life.

I agree immigrants should do so legally. I also believe it should be easier for them to become tax paying citizens. I live in Arizona where we have an influx of migrant workers. The ones I see are here legally working side by side with everyone else and yes language barriers are apparent but I  think it's great learning a little of their language as they learn a little more English through the course of daily interactions. And guess what your not going to believe this but they are some of the hardest working people we have here. Their work ethic surpasses many who have been Americans for generations. So we are giving 11 million migrants a chance to work honestly as legal tax paying citizens. This is not a bad thing. And to those that think this is simply a bleeding heart liberal folly. I say this to you.... your so concerned about good jobs well tough get out there and earn yourself one. Isn't that your motto anyways? You built this so get out there and start building  if you think your a harder better worker than anyone else especially just because your American and they are not.

Buenas noches a todos...
In lame man terms good night everyone.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch, 11 May 2013 - 05:35 AM.

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#36    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:44 AM

Having immigrants into the country enter legally is better for the country, as the immigrants have more of a stake and you don't end up with a bifurcated legal/under-the-table work force as much.  However, people will do what they need to do for their families, so when a country makes it essentially impossible, you will end up with illegals.  This problem is the fault of American racists and the politicians who pander to them, not the immigrants.


#37    Michelle

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:45 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 May 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

I would say it is fine to set up a system of qualifications, although setups that require a job offer are too easy to manipulate.  My standard would be reasonable proficiency in either English or Spanish (the two main American languages, although a case for adding French and ASL to the list could be made), basic numeracy, knowledge of US history and geography, and possession of a usable skill, and an absence of a criminal record.

How does that apply to anyone that will jump the border from all over South America though? What are we to do with them once they do this illegally with no skills whatsoever? If it's so easy to manipulate qualifications why are they still illegally crossing the border? We have an awful lot of unskilled, want to be workers, here already that would be tickled to death to get a job in restaurants, or wherever, so they can support themselves. A lot of them are in their 50's or 60's, having worked all of their lives in manufaturing jobs that have now gone elsewhere, with a good work ethic and can't make it on social security...if they are even elligable for it.

It's a tough situation all around.


#38    Michelle

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:50 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 May 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Having immigrants into the country enter legally is better for the country, as the immigrants have more of a stake and you don't end up with a bifurcated legal/under-the-table work force as much.  However, people will do what they need to do for their families, so when a country makes it essentially impossible, you will end up with illegals. This problem is the fault of American racists and the politicians who pander to them, not the immigrants.


I'm disappointed...I've read a lot of your posts and I didn't expect you to pull the racist card. I'm talking pure economics.

Edited by Michelle, 11 May 2013 - 06:01 AM.


#39    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:58 AM

I resent your accusing me of pulling the "racist card"; American policy here is racist.  The economic arguments fall in favor of open borders, but people are too dense to see that and it pales beside the human cost that the racism is imposing.  I would also say that American policy is making the States an object of disfavor if not serious dislike all around the world.  I know for sure it disgusts me.


#40    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:10 AM

Instead of arguing about them taking good jobs how about getting mad about greedy American business owners outsourcing jobs out of the country just so they can line their pockets at the expense of hard working Americans. That's the real argument.  If we had all American business owners forced to open shop here in America where they themselves live and prosper maybe we would be hoping for immigrants.... just saying... we focus our frustrations on faceless arguments without ever addressing the true issues here stateside.


And yes I work in the manufacturing industry for a company that can claim made in the USA where every other company in this exact same industry outsources out of the country many of their parts. Top it off we are the leader in our industry with record profit. Methinks this could be possible in many industries. This last paragraph was said with pride. I'm not trying to be arrogant I'm simply very proud of this company for their effort to keep jobs in this country. Which has gone against the status quo in this particular industry.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch, 11 May 2013 - 06:20 AM.

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#41    Michelle

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:26 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 May 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

I resent your accusing me of pulling the "racist card"; American policy here is racist.  The economic arguments fall in favor of open borders, but people are too dense to see that and it pales beside the human cost that the racism is imposing.  I would also say that American policy is making the States an object of disfavor if not serious dislike all around the world.  I know for sure it disgusts me.

I wasn't the one that brought up race. I don't care what the "American policies" are. We have to have some sort of control over who immigrates to this country and how many. We can't be a sanctuary or an economical opportunity for everyone, as much as I would like us to be.

If I had my way, the entire US would be a sanctuary for every abused or endangered animal on the planet, but that isn't going to happen either. At some point, you've got to think about how much you can realistically accommodate.

Edited by Michelle, 11 May 2013 - 06:32 AM.


#42    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:47 AM

The United States is seriously underpopulated and without considerable immigration will lose its superpower status to China and Inda within the century.  These are choices Americans must make and have a lot to do with its ultimate role in the world.


#43    Michelle

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:16 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 May 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

The United States is seriously underpopulated and without considerable immigration will lose its superpower status to China and Inda within the century.  These are choices Americans must make and have a lot to do with its ultimate role in the world.

The reason you think the US is underpopulated is because we have vast areas of natural preserves...or what? Contrary to popular belief, we value our natural resources. Jobs are going over seas regardless of what we think.


#44    Myles

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:26 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 May 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

The United States is seriously underpopulated and without considerable immigration will lose its superpower status to China and Inda within the century.  These are choices Americans must make and have a lot to do with its ultimate role in the world.
Underpopulated?    Not at all.


#45    Myles

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 May 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

I resent your accusing me of pulling the "racist card"; American policy here is racist.  The economic arguments fall in favor of open borders, but people are too dense to see that and it pales beside the human cost that the racism is imposing.  I would also say that American policy is making the States an object of disfavor if not serious dislike all around the world.  I know for sure it disgusts me.
You sure do like the "race card".






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