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Why did God create us if he knew we would sin


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#46    Etu Malku

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:39 PM

Quite simply and quite obviously, there isn't a god.
The idea of god, of devils, angels, demons, etc., are mental constructs called archetypes, and they are deeply embedded within our unconsciousness. They can be brought to the conscious surface by way of Symbolism and Ritual/Ceremony.

We as a Human race/species are endlessly creating tale after tale about what we experience as something greater than us in order to take the easiest Path in existence, it is Human nature to do so.

The Left Hand Path remains THE only Path towards true satisfaction.

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#47    Bling

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:46 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 02 November 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Quite simply and quite obviously, there isn't a god.
The idea of god, of devils, angels, demons, etc., are mental constructs called archetypes, and they are deeply embedded within our unconsciousness. They can be brought to the conscious surface by way of Symbolism and Ritual/Ceremony.

We as a Human race/species are endlessly creating tale after tale about what we experience as something greater than us in order to take the easiest Path in existence, it is Human nature to do so.

The Left Hand Path remains THE only Path towards true satisfaction.

I agree with you there.....God doesn't exist. But I like hypothetical questions ;)


#48    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

View PostBling, on 02 November 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

Several members have mentioned about freewill and how God isn't perfect....my opinions are:

Having freewill is great, I'm all for freewill, but why does there have to be bad consequences if we make a decision? - God could have given us options and a life which only contains good, healthy stuff....after all isn't that what a loving parent does for his children? If a human parent gave their child a choice of fatty sugary food or healthy low fat food, it's not the childs fault for choosing the unhealthy food which will ultimately be of detriment to their health - it's the parents fault for giving them the bad choice in the first place.
If bad wasn't created in the first place....if it wasn't an option....then we'd be ok - and willing servants and children of a loving God. Also the argument that it was Satan who created the evil....well God created him too didn't he? Basically God messed up by creating the bad things and now doesn't haven't have a clue how to make it better other than play the 'God' card and destroy those who question him. " Do as I say not as I do"

If God isn't perfect?.....why would you want to follow him then? How is he any better than mankind? Doesn't that contradict the notion of him being omnipotent?

Free will determines the consequences of decision,s and is necessary for choice, growth, development of  human sapient mind.  A parent does not, and cannot, control the way a child thinks or acts. It can educate, teach, discipline, model and mentor, behaviour and thougths, but it cannot compel either. That is biologically and neurologically impossible .

Now theoretically god could have created androids without free will who could not think of a destructive thougth, or who if they did, could not act on it. Isaac Asimov discussed this dilemma at length in many novels, with his three laws of robotics

  To develop and fulfil human potential we have to be able to see the consequences of our actions and to be able to chose which consequence we  choose In turn this devlops atributes like conscience, empathy, and the ability to  choose love. I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess. We still have options and choices. We can still be good people, and we can still create a paradise for all people on earth.

  There is no need for poverty let alone starvation on this earth,  if we choose to eliminate it. All the non natural flaws in the world are human in origin.

ANd are you suggesting that god makes nature completely benevolent. No storms no volcanoes Etc? And how about natural death and grieving Why not eliminate them as well ?

OH thats right, originally he did, if you believe the creation story. And in that story man undid ALL those benefits by opening pandora's box. But there was no compulsion on him to do so. No inevitablity that he would. In the bible story it suggests tha tgod created beings onmany plamets over a long pereiod of time Only on earth did man fall from grace by choosing his dark side.

The point is that we have choice, and thus we can ALWAYS choose for good, for constructive and beneficial outcomes. There is no need for human evil to exist at all. It only exists because we allow it to, in our own hearts and minds.

Like humans, in the bible narative, satan and one third of the angels chose the destructive and negative path. Again they had a choice. The consequences of their actions were a result of the choices they made. In humans today, we have the same choices when confronted by evil and destructive influences and temptations.

In resisting them, we become more disciplined, stronger and more empowered individuals. We grow into human adults in a spiritual, physical, and emotional sense. The power to put aside evil and destructive tendencies is an incredibly empowering and liberating force which only exists because we have a free choice.
God is no more omnipotent than humans albeit, being more advanced he has greater abilities. But we are also omnipotent in potential. Whether we admit it or not we know the consequences of our behaviours. We can plot various futures for ourselves and make them come to pass, by the choices we make at any time. In that respect we are as god is.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#49    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:59 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 02 November 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

Quite simply and quite obviously, there isn't a god.
The idea of god, of devils, angels, demons, etc., are mental constructs called archetypes, and they are deeply embedded within our unconsciousness. They can be brought to the conscious surface by way of Symbolism and Ritual/Ceremony.

We as a Human race/species are endlessly creating tale after tale about what we experience as something greater than us in order to take the easiest Path in existence, it is Human nature to do so.

The Left Hand Path remains THE only Path towards true satisfaction.
Obviously you a person who has never met god, and have, quite logically, formed your belief structures around that. It is an error of fact to believe that all gods are constructs of human sapience.  God exists as an independent free willed, sapient and powerful,  alien entity.

Of course you are free to refuse to accept the label of god for such an entity but its existence is real and it is accesible to, and interactive with, humans.

And ps. While ritual and ceremony may support and comfort some people, it is totally unnecessary. Neither god nor man needs ritual or ceremony to communicate or interact. It is inherent in who and what we are. Ritual and ceremony probably grow from a human desire to impose structure, order, and repetition/predictability, on a  naturally chaotic, and thus scary, universe

Edited by Mr Walker, 03 November 2012 - 12:10 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#50    libstaK

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:06 AM

View PostBling, on 02 November 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

If bad wasn't created in the first place....if it wasn't an option....then we'd be ok - and willing servants and children of a loving God.
Referring to the bolded part we would be the lobotomised version of ourselves - no thank you.

Quote

If God isn't perfect?.....why would you want to follow him then? How is he any better than mankind? Doesn't that contradict the notion of him being omnipotent?
Let's consider for a moment that mankind has only a miniscule amount of the information available to know whether God is perfect at all and is working on "trial and error" as far as our beliefs about what is ultimately good or bad for us, the earth and life at large - we have had mixed results at best so far.

You are absolutely right in one thing - I would not follow the God you describe, but then I never considered myself a "follower" of God, I'm not a puppy.  I think "seeker" is a better description - seeker of what true Wisdom and the nature of God actually is.  Let's be clear though, I do believe there is a God and that's a matter of personal life experience.

Edited by libstaK, 03 November 2012 - 12:06 AM.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#51    Bling

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:07 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 02 November 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Free will determines the consequences of decision,s and is necessary for choice, growth, development of  human sapient mind.  A parent does not, and cannot, control the way a child thinks or acts. It can educate, teach, discipline, model and mentor, behaviour and thougths, but it cannot compel either. That is biologically and neurologically impossible .

Now theoretically god could have created androids without free will who could not think of a destructive thougth, or who if they did, could not act on it. Isaac Asimov discussed this dilemma at length in many novels, with his three laws of robotics

  To develop and fulfil human potential we have to be able to see the consequences of our actions and to be able to chose which consequence we  choose In turn this devlops atributes like conscience, empathy, and the ability to  choose love. I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess. We still have options and choices. We can still be good people, and we can still create a paradise for all people on earth.

  There is no need for poverty let alone starvation on this earth,  if we choose to eliminate it. All the non natural flaws in the world are human in origin.

ANd are you suggesting that god makes nature completely benevolent. No storms no volcanoes Etc? And how about natural death and grieving Why not eliminate them as well ?

OH thats right, originally he did, if you believe the creation story. And in that story man undid ALL those benefits by opening pandora's box. But there was no compulsion on him to do so. No inevitablity that he would. In the bible story it suggests tha tgod created beings onmany plamets over a long pereiod of time Only on earth did man fall from grace by choosing his dark side.

The point is that we have choice, and thus we can ALWAYS choose for good, for constructive and beneficial outcomes. There is no need for human evil to exist at all. It only exists because we allow it to, in our own hearts and minds.

Like humans, in the bible narative, satan and one third of the angels chose the destructive and negative path. Again they had a choice. The consequences of their actions were a result of the choices they made. In humans today, we have the same choices when confronted by evil and destructive influences and temptations.

In resisting them, we become more disciplined, stronger and more empowered individuals. We grow into human adults in a spiritual, physical, and emotional sense. The power to put aside evil and destructive tendencies is an incredibly empowering and liberating force which only exists because we have a free choice.
God is no more omnipotent than humans albeit, being more advanced he has greater abilities. But we are also omnipotent in potential. Whether we admit it or not we know the consequences of our behaviours. We can plot various futures for ourselves and make them come to pass, by the choices we make at any time. In that respect we are as god is.

You haven't mentioned the part about God creating the bad things in the first place.....I said....

Having freewill is great, I'm all for freewill, but why does there have to be bad consequences if we make a decision? - God could have given us options and a life which only contains good, healthy stuff....after all isn't that what a loving parent does for his children?

If a human parent gave their child a choice of fatty sugary food or healthy low fat food, it's not the childs fault for choosing the unhealthy food which will ultimately be of detriment to their health - it's the parents fault for giving them the bad choice in the first place.


And also you said: "I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess"......er don't you read the news! Yes there are some great things in this world and I love my life, but I'm not blinkered by my great life as to think the worlds problems don't exist. I don't think mankind will just sort everything out that easily - yes there is no need for poverty, but can you imagine all the billionaires giving their money to the Third World? Who would orchestrate such a task? Mankind has been created with flaws, mankind didn't start the fire.


#52    Bling

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:12 AM

View PostlibstaK, on 03 November 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

Referring to the bolded part we would be the lobotomised version of ourselves - no thank you.


No we wouldn't, that's the whole point!!!! But we would make decisions that are good for us either way, if God had created it like that, but he chose not to. If our way of living is so right now and having suffering is a positive thing because it helps us evolve, then why is God ultimately going to get rid of pain, death and war, and let his followers live in a perfect heaven and earth?? Why wait?


#53    libstaK

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:24 AM

View PostBling, on 03 November 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

No we wouldn't, that's the whole point!!!! But we would make decisions that are good for us either way, if God had created it like that, but he chose not to. If our way of living is so right now and having suffering is a positive thing because it helps us evolve, then why is God ultimately going to get rid of pain, death and war, and let his followers live in a perfect heaven and earth?? Why wait?
You are deciding the nature of God based on the Abramaic teaching presented in the OT alone - what if he is bigger than what could be interpreted of him by those folk?  Is this a blast against religion and religious zealots or against the concept of a God? Because those are really two different discussions.

Besides, "The Kingdom of Heaven" is within by what is said in the NT - not going to be within at some future date but within right now.  Look at my avatar quote, this notion was not isolated to the Israelites or Christians God, not by a long shot.  So why wait indeed?  Why not see if we have found what we need to unlock the doors to that "Kingdom".  (note: I use the term "kingdom" for lack of a better term in language/communication, not because I imagine God looking down from some "throne").

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#54    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostBling, on 03 November 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

You haven't mentioned the part about God creating the bad things in the first place.....I said....

Having freewill is great, I'm all for freewill, but why does there have to be bad consequences if we make a decision? - God could have given us options and a life which only contains good, healthy stuff....after all isn't that what a loving parent does for his children?

If a human parent gave their child a choice of fatty sugary food or healthy low fat food, it's not the childs fault for choosing the unhealthy food which will ultimately be of detriment to their health - it's the parents fault for giving them the bad choice in the first place.


And also you said: "I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess"......er don't you read the news! Yes there are some great things in this world and I love my life, but I'm not blinkered by my great life as to think the worlds problems don't exist. I don't think mankind will just sort everything out that easily - yes there is no need for poverty, but can you imagine all the billionaires giving their money to the Third World? Who would orchestrate such a task? Mankind has been created with flaws, mankind didn't start the fire.

In the bible story god did not create any bad things, and in the end of the story humans are restored to a world with NO bad things.
The story says that bad things happened because of choices humans made, using adam and eve as archetypes.  It is story like tha t of pandoras box God made all things possible. Humans chose what they desired.

If god could have prevented those choices (and i doubt he could) he could only do so either by eliminating humanity's abilty to formulate destructive thougths, OR by physically preventing our bodies from acting on those thoughts once we had formed them. Neither is a positive outcome and in humanity as we know it  impossible We are evolved via learned experiences and as humans we grow from conception via learned knowledge and understandings. If god made us incapable of learning we would be born all knowing and fully developed
I am not blinkered. I am a realist  I also am a humanist who believes humans will create a pardise on earth, go on to colonise space and spread itslef among the stars. I act on that belief in everything i do, to help people and to make the world a better place. I will never give up.

But to change the world every one of us has to first change ourselves and recognise our true needs and priorities. We have to accepet accountability for our actions large and small, both in how our lifestyles affect others. and in how we can help other people. To achieve this we need to recognise that we can and tha  we can and do make a dfiference, based on how we chose to live our lives.
Mankind has flaws and virtues/abilities But again, we can work towards eliminating the flaws, and developing the virtues. Its up to us. Books like the bible, among many others, tell us how we can achieve this First by recreating ourselves, and second in how to act to others, and more they explain why we should. I am not just my brothers keeper I AM my brother. I know that he feels as i do, suffers as i do, and is made happy as I am. And every human being is my brother or sister. How then, can i watch them/myself starve, go uneducated or die, without doing all i can t prevent those things?
Ps it doesnt require an effort by billionaires. If every "western" person from a developed country gave just a few percent of their current income, all starvation and most poverty, disease and illness caused by poor sanitation etc would be eliminated. Thats a choice we ALL have, and can all easily make.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#55    Bling

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:30 AM

View PostlibstaK, on 03 November 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

You are deciding the nature of God based on the Abramaic teaching presented in the OT alone - what if he is bigger than what could be interpreted of him by those folk?  Is this a blast against religion and religious zealots or against the concept of a God? Because those are really two different discussions.


What other Gods are there apart from ones created by a religion or belief of some kind? I don't think the bible and christianity is the only belief system that believes about a god who has created this earth and all that is in it.


#56    libstaK

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:36 AM

View PostBling, on 03 November 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

What other Gods are there apart from ones created by a religion or belief of some kind? I don't think the bible and christianity is the only belief system that believes about a god who has created this earth and all that is in it.
No but the reasons for human suffering are presented in a "unique" way in the bible as opposed to say eastern belief systems or Egyptian/Greek/Norse lore on the nature of God.

There is more to the position of there being a God than the personality/s humanity choose to embue him/her with.  Or said in another way these are at best "sign posts" of supernatural events that are attributed a personality but do not provide all the information on what God actually is - just that he is there and has this or that attribute according to the observer.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#57    Etu Malku

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:50 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 02 November 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

Obviously you a person who has never met god, and have, quite logically, formed your belief structures around that. It is an error of fact to believe that all gods are constructs of human sapience.  God exists as an independent free willed, sapient and powerful,  alien entity.
Quite incorrect, it is You that has never met God, simply because there isn't one. The belief structures of people such as yourself have been formed through centuries of confabulation. The "error" is in your Belief, not mine.

There is nothing about the Abrahamic god that is Freedom of Will.

Quote

Of course you are free to refuse to accept the label of god for such an entity but its existence is real and it is accesible to, and interactive with, humans.
Indeed the meme/mental construct you refer to as God is as real as any other imagined corporeal entity, and as accessible to any and all who believe or are indoctrinated into belief (a.k.a. fooled).

Quote

And ps. While ritual and ceremony may support and comfort some people, it is totally unnecessary. Neither god nor man needs ritual or ceremony to communicate or interact. It is inherent in who and what we are. Ritual and ceremony probably grow from a human desire to impose structure, order, and repetition/predictability, on a  naturally chaotic, and thus scary, universe
Human beings cannot escape ritual and ceremony, it is a part of being Human, it is just one aspect that separates Us from the rest of the Animal Kingdom.

There are no Belief Systems that do not incorporate ritual and ceremony into their practice.

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#58    thorn-v

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:18 AM

God gave us free will because obedience isn't obedience if you don't have a choice about it. The Bible says if you love God then you will obey Him. It is a choice that was made to sin, otherwise God wouldn't have waited until after Adam and Eve ate from the tree to punish them.


#59    Jinxdom

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 04:41 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 03 November 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

In the bible story god did not create any bad things, and in the end of the story humans are restored to a world with NO bad things.
The story says that bad things happened because of choices humans made, using adam and eve as archetypes.  It is story like tha t of pandoras box God made all things possible. Humans chose what they desired.

If god could have prevented those choices (and i doubt he could) he could only do so either by eliminating humanity's abilty to formulate destructive thougths, OR by physically preventing our bodies from acting on those thoughts once we had formed them. Neither is a positive outcome and in humanity as we know it  impossible We are evolved via learned experiences and as humans we grow from conception via learned knowledge and understandings. If god made us incapable of learning we would be born all knowing and fully developed
I am not blinkered. I am a realist  I also am a humanist who believes humans will create a pardise on earth, go on to colonise space and spread itslef among the stars. I act on that belief in everything i do, to help people and to make the world a better place. I will never give up.

But to change the world every one of us has to first change ourselves and recognise our true needs and priorities. We have to accepet accountability for our actions large and small, both in how our lifestyles affect others. and in how we can help other people. To achieve this we need to recognise that we can and tha  we can and do make a dfiference, based on how we chose to live our lives.
Mankind has flaws and virtues/abilities But again, we can work towards eliminating the flaws, and developing the virtues. Its up to us. Books like the bible, among many others, tell us how we can achieve this First by recreating ourselves, and second in how to act to others, and more they explain why we should. I am not just my brothers keeper I AM my brother. I know that he feels as i do, suffers as i do, and is made happy as I am. And every human being is my brother or sister. How then, can i watch them/myself starve, go uneducated or die, without doing all i can t prevent those things?
Ps it doesnt require an effort by billionaires. If every "western" person from a developed country gave just a few percent of their current income, all starvation and most poverty, disease and illness caused by poor sanitation etc would be eliminated. Thats a choice we ALL have, and can all easily make.

This is almost exactly what I believe except for one thing. I don't believe in God. I believe in choices and contridictions. I think I need to watch the Matrix again. :nw:


#60    Mr Walker

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:35 AM

View PostBling, on 03 November 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

You haven't mentioned the part about God creating the bad things in the first place.....I said....

Having freewill is great, I'm all for freewill, but why does there have to be bad consequences if we make a decision? - God could have given us options and a life which only contains good, healthy stuff....after all isn't that what a loving parent does for his children?

If a human parent gave their child a choice of fatty sugary food or healthy low fat food, it's not the childs fault for choosing the unhealthy food which will ultimately be of detriment to their health - it's the parents fault for giving them the bad choice in the first place.


And also you said: "I dont think god messed up in the theoretical creation story Because i dont think humanity is a mess"......er don't you read the news! Yes there are some great things in this world and I love my life, but I'm not blinkered by my great life as to think the worlds problems don't exist. I don't think mankind will just sort everything out that easily - yes there is no need for poverty, but can you imagine all the billionaires giving their money to the Third World? Who would orchestrate such a task? Mankind has been created with flaws, mankind didn't start the fire.

Actually in a real world god couldnt give us only good things. Drink too much water and you drown. Eat too much of good healthy food and you  still get fat.  In a real world our destinies generally depend on us . We create them from our thoguhts and deeds Secondly if no action of ours had a negative consequence, how could we have, or exercise, free will .

Again, how could we learn if every action had a positive outcome, even if that was theoretically possible. I once saw a child put his hand on a very hot combustion heater. Should god negate the laws of thermo dynamics at that moment in time to ensure the child was not burned?

In the real world a parent might temporarily prevent a child from eating unhealthy food but that is a stop gap and unsatisfactory control method.  Unless the child learns self discipline and the desire and will to eat healthily, as soon as it is beyond its parents control, it will eat something unhealthy. You cant keep a 30 year old (Or even a teen ager) from eating or drinking that which is bad for it. They have to chose not to.
I am not responsible for others. I do what i can do, BUT i know from my own life, which is ordinary and human, that everyone can be transformed and everyone is capable of chosing love over hate, charity over greed, sellessness over selfishness, need over greed etc.

Mankind wasnt created. We evolved and we evolved as primates.  Our qualities are not inherently flaws or virtues, just natural drivers. BUT, because we are sapient and self aware beings, we can step beyond those evolved characteristics, and choose who and what we wish to be. We can make our world as we desire it to be. First step. We can make ourselves the person we wish to be.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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