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Are ex Christians nasty now


truethat

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I was thinking a lot about the way some of the self proclaimed "ex Christians" in the world, suggest that now that they have seen the light and have left the religion, they now have all sorts of nasty things to say about how "Christians really are."

My experience is that most of the more devout people that I know are actually some of the nicest people that I know. The ones that are total jerks seem to change their minds down the line.

So I'm wondering. Look at Ted Haggard. He turned out to be this giant hypocrite. Hey was a patronizing pushy jerk while he was in the faith. He embodied all of the worst stereotypes of the religious right. And then he gets busted for basically being a pig.

So I'm wondering if this is what is meant biblically in Matthew 7:20. All these former Christians seem to have come out as real jerks any way since they left their faith.

Are Christians plagued by hypocrites who then leave the faith and come up with their own theories about God and then persecute those who have followed the "true word of God?"

And the interesting part is this, do they hold Christians responsible for the way they themselves behave and call it a pattern of Christianity that really is like the wolf in sheep's clothing.

What makes a real Christian?

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What makes a real Christian?
I don't know...i see human beings just like me
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I understand why you would ask these questions truethat. I don't think that's really what Matthew 7:20 was implying though. It is in reference to people falsely believing, or being false witnesses, or false prophets, proclaiming that they are Christian, but being hypocrites, which you made reference to with Ted Haggard. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

As far as former Christians go, the sheeps clothing doesn't apply because they aren't being false prophets. However, I do agree that nastiness among them is a problem. As you know, I have realized this about myself, which is why I started my 'turning the tables' thread. I wanted to feel what it is like to be treated the way I have treated others, and to gain understanding.

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Heh.. I'm just mean to everyone. Pros of having a bitter black as coal shrivled heart.

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I was thinking a lot about the way some of the self proclaimed "ex Christians" in the world, suggest that now that they have seen the light and have left the religion, they now have all sorts of nasty things to say about how "Christians really are."

My experience is that most of the more devout people that I know are actually some of the nicest people that I know. The ones that are total jerks seem to change their minds down the line.

So I'm wondering. Look at Ted Haggard. He turned out to be this giant hypocrite. Hey was a patronizing pushy jerk while he was in the faith. He embodied all of the worst stereotypes of the religious right. And then he gets busted for basically being a pig.

So I'm wondering if this is what is meant biblically in Matthew 7:20. All these former Christians seem to have come out as real jerks any way since they left their faith.

Are Christians plagued by hypocrites who then leave the faith and come up with their own theories about God and then persecute those who have followed the "true word of God?"

And the interesting part is this, do they hold Christians responsible for the way they themselves behave and call it a pattern of Christianity that really is like the wolf in sheep's clothing.

What makes a real Christian?

the bible says that when someones turns his back on the lord(backsliding) that he will be 10 times as bad as he was before he became a christian. i dont think that people who this happens to really got the full forgiveness of the lord. sometimes we just go to the lord to get the load lighten, so to speak. i think when you really get total forgiveness you never stray for from it or forget it. just my op

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I really wish I knew Truethat...

As someone who was an mmmm... agnostic most of my life, I chose Christianity in my late 20's. I have to say, it was difficult to find something that worked for me--I had to find a form of Christianity that didn't discriminate, didn't focus on fire and brimstone, and didn't prosletyze, and was socially concious. Passifism was also important to me since I didn't believe in any kind of violence.

It's truly amazing how difficult it was to find a church or denomination that held beliefs that were similar to mine.

I'm afraid that many people grew up in the Christian denominations that rather assulted their own core beliefs. A vengeful God and a critical one. I really feel as though this is what makes many former Christians angry, and in many ways, I see them as rightfully angry. There is no peace in critism and vengence.

I don't know what "true" Christianity is. I feel in my heart it is non-violence, equal rights for EVERYONE, and walking on the side of moral conciousness while holding a personal relationship with God. Unfortunately, I fear a lot of Christians disagree with me.

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I'm bitter towards christianity. Simply because I've had...a few bad experiences with the southern-baptists churches, and my holy-roller grandfather shoving it down my throat.

Is it right? No. Being bitter towards an idea makes no sense, but I can't shake it.

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Yes, that is the accepted meaning of Matthew 7:21.

As dlv and I were talking about one time, I forget where, there are many who try on the Christian "hat" for a time. They find it not to their liking, and discard the "identity" when it doesn't work for them anymore. The actress Jessica Alba gave an interview one time where she said something about how she used to get up at 5:00 in the morning to pray, go to church, all the right things one is supposed to do. She thought all the things that she did, made her Christian. Well, she tired of the routine, found that IT wasn't really doing anything special for HER, and gave up on it. In this interview she then proclaimed that since she used to be a Christian, and didn't see the use in it, she was glad that she had gotten that phase over with and wasn't it nice how she was able to gain something from it and move on?

There is no such thing as an ex-Christian. Here's why. You ask what does it really mean to be a Christian. It is not something that an "x" amount of habits transforms you into, like kneel in prayer and the 10th time you do it, the deal's done, you're a Christian now. Being baptized does not guarantee it. It is not "earned" through a certain lifestyle of denial and trying really really hard to be good, while you're sweating bullets suppressing your real desires. I'm glad you asked, because it really is misunderstood. There is a reason for that.

Being a Christian means you have been convicted in your heart of your sin nature. That has nothing to do with intellect or external influences, your heart is something that you go to bed alone with every night, and something that you alone are responsible for. It is not so much an intellectual decision as an honest confession. Acknowledging the elephant in the room, if you will. Breaking of the will and humbling of the self is involved. It is not easy or fun. Many people are fooled into thinking that they are Christians by saying "The Sinner's Prayer." This is the fault of the nice, soft evangelical movement, that tells people, "You can be assured right now that if you die, you will go to Heaven just by saying this prayer. Would you like for me to lead you in this prayer?" And then everyone gets all fuzzy and teary. Um, nonsense. The Sinner's Prayer does not have to be followed word for word, and it should not be said unless it is meant. Salvation can not occur with empty words. You can be aware of sin, without admitting to it yourself, and this is what messes a lot of people up. There is no way around it, salvation simply does not happen unless you admit that you yourself are a sinner and can not correct that condition by yourself.

When true repentance has taken place, and the confession made, spiritual rebirth is the result. This is where I am going to lose most of you, if I haven't already. *Here goes, it's the truth and I'm gonna say it* *Prepare to be offended just know that I love all of ya* Before spiritual rebirth, if you choose to partake of it, we live in a condition known as "dead in sin." I am going to edit in appropriate verses later. When dead in sin, we are followers of Satan, we are bound to our carnality. When you receive life from Jesus Christ, those chains are dropped, and also dropped are the binding from your eyes and ears. This is why when I first joined UM, I was on a thread, and everyone was talking about Christianity in a very uninformed way, and I posted, "I pray ears to hear and eyes to see for everyone here." LOL Sheri and GW had a ball with that one. I knew they would, but prayer has life in it, and when I posted that I prayed over it, knowing that God would honor my prayer. Anyhoo, you enter into spiritual life, can see things you could not see before, such as how Satan had control over you.

Jesus Christ acts as the redeemer (hence my little verse under Dexter), in that He will plead your case before the Father. Rather like a bailbondsman. He has bought your debt, you are guaranteed to find your name in the Book of Life. Your debt did not go away, rather Jesus has assumed it, and now owes God. He will pay your fine. Actually, He already did pay your fine. Salvation is a one-time thing. If your conversion was real, you never need to "get saved" again, but because you have a new heart, there will be changes, small at first, and then more substantial as you learn more and grow closer to your Father and learn about your new nature; changes that manifest themselves in your interactions with people, how you consider the choices you make, and your relationship to the world around you.

Sin will be an issue until Jesus returns to establish His kingdom. However, for the Christian sin is something to be avoided consciously as much as possible, admitted to and turned from when committed, and placed in the hands of the one who has bought your debt so that He can take it before the Father and see it forgiven.

You are not exempt from sin, because you still live in a mortal body, and inhabit a world in which Satan is constantly looking for ways to use you to confuse non-believers. Hence, the issue of different denominations. In truth, there is only the denomination of God. But non-believers see us arguing and being malcontents over dumb stuff, and say to themselves, "There can't be anything good in that, if they're fighting all the time." You are on to something, truethat, your perception is being heightened possibly, because most non-believers don't catch things of this nature. Of course, you're very smart, I don't mean to downplay that, but even the smartest people don't always understand things of a spiritual nature, because spiritual wisdom is a different ballgame than intellectualism. I could not have guessed at the big picture until I was given vision and life. I had my suspicions, and I bought into a lot of occult lies, but it is not possible to receive the full truth without having your eyes opened by the hand of God. *folds up pulpit and puts it back in purse* You know, I really do love you all, have I already said that? I love you enough to tell you the truth.

Back to the issue at hand, yes, there are many who do not have spiritual conversion, but claim to know the Lord. And that is what that verse (Matthew 7:21) means. You asked, so....

Edited by texasgirlheather
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Interesting thread True. Although I don't think Matthew 7:20 was talking about ex-Christians since it's part of a passage speaking about false prophets, that is, people who mislead believers.

Having said that, I believe the anger we see from many ex-Christians may be due to several simple reasons:

  • Now that they no longer believe, they feel they wasted time which, they now believe is extremely limited since they no longer believe in an eternal life.
  • They feel they were lied to, or fooled into believing something foolish
  • It may also be they are angry that they are unable to "get" something that others seem to get easily
  • They may be angry that they are not among those chosen for Salvation (I don't believe this, but there are people who believe only specific people are chosen, and I believe this would be a very few people)
  • They feel that if they can't have the security of a walk with God, then no one else should.
  • They may have been angry people all along, but are now liberated to be themselves since they don't have to wory about answering to God.
*Sits back and waits for fireworks*

linked-image

Edited by IamsSon
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There is no such thing as an ex-Christian. Here's why. You ask what does it really mean to be a Christian. It is not something that an "x" amount of habits transforms you into, like kneel in prayer and the 10th time you do it, the deal's done, you're a Christian now. Being baptized does not guarantee it. It is not "earned" through a certain lifestyle of denial and trying really really hard to be good, while you're sweating bullets supressing your real desires. I'm glad you asked, because it really is misunderstood. There is a reason for that.

Back to the issue at hand, yes, there are many who do not have spiritual conversion, but claim to know the Lord. And that is what that verse (Matthew 7:21) means. You asked, so....

Wow, heather... you're my hero! :wub: That was an awesome post!!! :tu:

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*Has to put up pulpit again because she forgot something*

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Just hearing the word of God and giving it lip service in your life, saying that you believe because you chosen some tasty, easy-to-digest morsels and tried to work them into your life somewhat, as long as it doesn't clash with your will for your life, doesn't get the job done.

Matthew 7:24 - 27 "Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: For it was founded upon a rock. And everyone that hears these saying of mine, and does them not, shall be likened to a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: And great was the fall of it."

You can live your life knowing what your eternity will be; or you can get by hoping for the best, and take the wait and see attitude.

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A true Christian is someone who keeps to true to the Word of God and follows the teachings of Christ. Two downers toward Christianity are the hypocrites such as the priest and pastors that have the fine moral quote of "Do as I say Not as I do." And those that use the strength of the religion for their own selfish and worldly desires. Christ did not force or degrade anyone into believing who he was or the message he sent. He presented himself and his teachings selflessly and with tolerance. People saw him for who he was and followed him. He never had to mission or preach to earn followers.

Another aspect that is degrading to Christianity is the denominations. Basicly a denomination is the word of one preacher who people understood or followed for councle. Soon it was believed that this one preacher was an authority of God and less a servant of God and the numbers of his commune rose. But while this one preacher was gaining followers and a swelled head so where many others who believed themselves to be the wellspring of Christ and soon from one man sprung thousands and hundreds of men who believed themselves the true interpriter of that man's words. Arguement insues between the denominations over the years and soon they are so far apart from one another it is not even the same religion they follow.

Here is an example. I write on this site all my theories and beliefs on what Christianity is and how God wants us to live. It may make sense to some and seem ridiculous to others. Soon I have a commune of followers who look to me for religious council. Now there is a new denomitation in the Church of ND-DAVE. And it goes from there. The true test of a preacher or prophet is to know that all he has comes from the Lord and what he gives he can take away and if you abuse such in a way as I see many of different denominations do the true word will be taken away and all they will have left is the empty ramblings of a fresh false prophet.

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Wow, heather... you're my hero! :wub: That was an awesome post!!! :tu:

Thanks, Pop.

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As to the OP, it would depend on the PERSON, I think. If they were miserable before, and found no comfort int the christian faith, they may be disillusioned and disappointed, and therefore it would reflect on their outlook.

Or, they may just be miserable SOB's to start with.

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As to the OP, it would depend on the PERSON, I think. If they were miserable before, and found no comfort int the christian faith, they may be disillusioned and disappointed, and therefore it would reflect on their outlook.

Or, they may just be miserable SOB's to start with.

Good point. I know afew people like this. All they do is take, take, and take. And when what they've taken doesnt give the desired results they mope and whine because they are not satisfied.

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Relating to the original topic, I would have to say that my opinion is that "ex-Christians" ARE nasty now because they were nasty then. No spiritual conversion took place. It is possible for certain unpleasant personality types to be transformed over time by joy; that's what happened to me. Believe it or not, I used to be an extremely mean person. Ugly, bitter, self-centered, you know the routine. I'm not saying I'm all that and an enchilada now, but some basic, real changes have taken place that are the natural consequence of having a Christ-centered mentality. Had I never received that, I would most likely be the same ugly person for the long-term. In every life there are moments of temporal happiness; but the path I was on would not have yielded joy, ever. I can not prove this to you, I'm just telling you what I know. You could say, "Well, you don't know, any possible number of things could have happened to drastically change your outlook, it didn't have to be becoming a Christian." But I can say with my hindsight, had I never had a spiritual conversion, I would still be a complete hothead (all the time, instead of the only occassional hotheadedness you see out of me now :lol: ). And so it is my guess, that other people who have sour personalities to begin with, and have no real conversion, are probably still sour, because nothing changed.

Edited by texasgirlheather
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I know plenty of "x-christians" who are good people.

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I know plenty of "x-christians" who are good people.

I would like to point out, that I was not saying that all people who refer to themselves as ex-Christians fall into the personality type that is being discussed. We are just saying that OF the ex-Christians who do fall into this category, can we figure out a common deniminator that will help us see why they are like this? I can't speak for truethat, but that is what I am saying for me.

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This is an interesting question, and I have noticed it. Ex-Christians for some reason seem to be the biggest critics of Christianity. I'll call this, for lack of a better word - Spurned-believer syndrome. To use an example, back in the early/mid-90's I was a real big Canterbury Bulldgos supporter (Australian Rugby League sports team). Then in the mid-90's there was this big upheaval in the game, and to cut a long story short, I changed allegiances to the mighty North Sydney Bears, a team I still barrack for to this day, even though they no longer exist in the competition). And the team that I HATE above all others now - the Bulldogs. The team that I poured my heart and spirit into betrayed me, the supporter. They went in a way that I felt was bad for the game, and they were no longer worthy of my support. But now, nothing is more dangerous than a lover spurned, so I will call for blood every week the bulldogs play. Whoever they are up against are my favourite team for the week, I'll cheer them and dance in the streets every time the bulldogs lose.

And this is just a game.

Religion is much bigger than a mere game. If I were to pour my heart into a religion (Christianity, for example) but something happens to shake that, if something comes up that makes me feel betrayed or spurned by the belief that I've devoted myself to, I very well might act similar to how I do to my ex-team in the footy - that is, I would scream for blood in anything to do with Christianity.

Hope that analogy makes sense to you. If not, then try and watch some Rugby League some time and you might get an idea ^_^

Regards, PA

That said,

the bible says that when someones turns his back on the lord(backsliding) that he will be 10 times as bad as he was before he became a christian. i dont think that people who this happens to really got the full forgiveness of the lord. sometimes we just go to the lord to get the load lighten, so to speak. i think when you really get total forgiveness you never stray for from it or forget it. just my op
I'm not doubting you on this, but I honestly can't recall a single place where it says those who stop believing will be 10x worse than before. Could you provide me scriptural backing for this?

edit: I did find a passage in Hebrews 5-6 that deals with a similar issue, but it does not deal with falling away. But in reading this section of the Bible, I can see how certain denominations might read into it and add some kind of doctrine to the effect that you say. If this is not the passage you speak of, then my apologies

Thanks.

Edited by Paranoid Android
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Religion is much bigger than a mere game. If I were to pour my heart into a religion (Christianity, for example) but something happens to shake that, if something comes up that makes me feel betrayed or spurned by the belief that I've devoted myself to, I very well might act similar to how I do to my ex-team in the footy - that is, I would scream for blood in anything to do with Christianity.

PA, you hit the nail on the head as usual. :yes: Losing my faith was like losing a loved one. You really do go through stages of loss--grief, anger etc. I did feel betrayed and lied to. I still feel it to this day--five years after my deconversion! It is not nearly as pronounced, but it's there. And I doubt it will ever fully go away.

Sean

Edited by seanph
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Alot of ex-Christians are much like ex-smokers. Get them near smoke and they start coughing and whinging.

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PA, you hit the nail on the head as usual. :yes: Losing my faith was like losing a loved one. You really do go through stages of loss--grief, anger etc. I did feel betrayed and lied to. I still feel it to this day--five years after my deconversion! It is not nearly as pronounced, but it's there. And I doubt it will ever fully go away.

Sean

Thanks for that, sean. Yet you are far from anything I'd describe as a "nasty non-Christian". There are some in the same position as you that have dedicated their life to tearing down the institution they once served.
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I think it boils down to passion. As a Christian, I was so on fire, that my hair was was a torch! I was deeply passionate, debated everyone regarding the truths of my faith. I was a holy roller--literally! The same is true now. My passion now lies in the other direction. My zeal is for new personal truths. And I want to share those "truths" just as I once shared my faith. Sometimes that zeal comes across as negative. Obviously it is unintentional. Debating personal beliefs can often get heated. Just the nature of the beast. Humans are passionate beings ... often too much so.

Sean

Edited by seanph
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Please always respect the beliefs of other members. The bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. A lot of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect other people's views. This means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks.

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I was thinking a lot about the way some of the self proclaimed "ex Christians" in the world, suggest that now that they have seen the light and have left the religion, they now have all sorts of nasty things to say about how "Christians really are."

My experience is that most of the more devout people that I know are actually some of the nicest people that I know. The ones that are total jerks seem to change their minds down the line.

So I'm wondering. Look at Ted Haggard. He turned out to be this giant hypocrite. Hey was a patronizing pushy jerk while he was in the faith. He embodied all of the worst stereotypes of the religious right. And then he gets busted for basically being a pig.

So I'm wondering if this is what is meant biblically in Matthew 7:20. All these former Christians seem to have come out as real jerks any way since they left their faith.

Are Christians plagued by hypocrites who then leave the faith and come up with their own theories about God and then persecute those who have followed the "true word of God?"

And the interesting part is this, do they hold Christians responsible for the way they themselves behave and call it a pattern of Christianity that really is like the wolf in sheep's clothing.

What makes a real Christian?

Christianity is not about what people do or how they behave the theology is about what God has done via a redeemer. Your theology is flawed.

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