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Great Pyramid not built by Khufu?


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#256    Arbitran

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:35 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 09 October 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

I'm glad you found my reply acceptable because after posting it I was afraid I might have come across as flippant, which wasn't my intent. Well, about the gorillas, specifically. I'll be extremely flippant about aliens and creationists and other folks not of this world. :P

I should've taken the time to expound on my post, if only briefly (which isn't easy for me, of course). Archaeologists have recovered a dizzying array of animal bones (and animal mummies) from the ancient Egyptian world, many of them deliberately and respectfully buried by mankind. This includes everything from elephants to shrews. And while countless baboons were interred or mummified, I can't think of any example of the bones of a gorilla dating to the pharaonic period. Were they even indigenous to Egypt at some time? Not that many of the baboons were—many of them were imported from farther south in Africa.

Think of the veritable army of gorillas it would've taken to assist with something like the Great Pyramid. Even if the gorillas numbered only in the hundreds, could humans have controlled them adequately?

Gorillas I think would have to have been imported, like the baboons, if there's any chance they ever were found in Egypt. I don't know if an army would be necessary, but indeed, significant numbers would be needed; on the order of at least fifty (which would amount to the equivalent in strength of approximately 200 humans). It would be a challenge, to be sure; it would be very difficult to capture and import that many specimens, particularly over long distances, and with the equipment available at the time. The only really feasible solution would be the capture of infants, and have them reared in Egypt, although this could be problematic given that a gigantic supply of food would need to be imported as well, given gorillas' diet is not endemic to Egypt, as I understand it. So, fifty or more infant gorillas, transported over hundreds of miles along with lifetime supplies of acceptable vegetation for all of them = extremely unlikely scenario. That, coupled of course with the noted fact that we don't see any evidence of these individuals, which would have needed to be cared for very intimately as they were raised, makes it appear as though it didn't happen.

Well, it was an interesting hypothesis whilst it lasted (certainly better than dinosaurs...), but I suppose we've just about laid this one to rest.

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#257    cladking

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:53 AM

View PostArbitran, on 09 October 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

1 ~ Hard to say. Maybe stacking car tires, in order from largest on the bottom, to smallest on the top. Hmm... in almost "pyramid" shape, one could say.

2 ~ About a half-hour, give or take; after that there's usually around twenty minutes or so before he'll work again. That's one of the primary differences between humans and gorillas: they have shorter attention spans. A silverback gorilla has to be constantly vigilant, and watching all around him for any potential threat to his tribe; he can't afford to focus his attention on one thing for terribly long.

In any case, it isn't as if I'm pushing for the gorilla hypothesis here; I think it's as improbable as everyone else (which, to be fair, is still considerably more probable that aliens or dinosaurs). I'm simply indicating the facts about gorillas here; that, regardless of whether they actually were involved or not, it wouldn't be terrifically farfetched to suggest that gorillas would have been capable of assisting with the construction of the pyramids. That is, of course, a completely different statement than: "gorillas built the pyramids".

View PostArbitran, on 09 October 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

1 ~ Hard to say. Maybe stacking car tires, in order from largest on the bottom, to smallest on the top. Hmm... in almost "pyramid" shape, one could say.

2 ~ About a half-hour, give or take; after that there's usually around twenty minutes or so before he'll work again. That's one of the primary differences between humans and gorillas: they have shorter attention spans. A silverback gorilla has to be constantly vigilant, and watching all around him for any potential threat to his tribe; he can't afford to focus his attention on one thing for terribly long.

In any case, it isn't as if I'm pushing for the gorilla hypothesis here; I think it's as improbable as everyone else (which, to be fair, is still considerably more probable that aliens or dinosaurs). I'm simply indicating the facts about gorillas here; that, regardless of whether they actually were involved or not, it wouldn't be terrifically farfetched to suggest that gorillas would have been capable of assisting with the construction of the pyramids. That is, of course, a completely different statement than: "gorillas built the pyramids".

I confess that I didn't look up gorillas until after I posted.  I was thinking of the mountain
gorilla which I had thought was much more aggressive and dangerous than it apparently
really is.  I forgot even Koko was a gorilla.

I still have to think aliens were more likely to be a factor than gorillas though I'd grant that
gorillas might be a little more likely to have lifted at least one stone than aliens.

Of course such things are difficult to quantify.

I stand corrected.

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#258    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:08 PM

Is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great  pyramid? As I understand it its easy and simple way from where we can conclude when block was cut based on fact that stones on atomic level changes when sun first time hits stone.

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#259    Swede

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:20 AM

View Postthe L, on 10 October 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great  pyramid? As I understand it its easy and simple way from where we can conclude when block was cut based on fact that stones on atomic level changes when sun first time hits stone.

L - Your understandings in regards to the details of TL/OSL dating may be more fully informed by the following:

http://core.ecu.edu/...linsond/OSL.htm

http://crustal.usgs....g/section4.html

http://anthro.paloma...time/time_5.htm

Keep in mind the mineral constituency of the limestone of the Mokattam formation. Can supply further explanatory detail at a later date if desired.

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#260    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:24 AM

View PostSwede, on 11 October 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

L - Your understandings in regards to the details of TL/OSL dating may be more fully informed by the following:

http://core.ecu.edu/...linsond/OSL.htm

http://crustal.usgs....g/section4.html

http://anthro.paloma...time/time_5.htm

Keep in mind the mineral constituency of the limestone of the Mokattam formation. Can supply further explanatory detail at a later date if desired.

.

Thanks on links. So is limestone somehow harder to date? Are  you aware of TL dating of GP?

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#261    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:46 PM

View Postthe L, on 10 October 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great  pyramid? As I understand it its easy and simple way from where we can conclude when block was cut based on fact that stones on atomic level changes when sun first time hits stone.
Stil...
Also I have one more question. How many time spent from Egyptians organized and become society, culture , civilization to the time of the first pyramid?

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#262    cormac mac airt

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:21 PM

View Postthe L, on 13 October 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Stil...
Also I have one more question. How many time spent from Egyptians organized and become society, culture , civilization to the time of the first pyramid?

From the start of Dynastic Egypt to the construction of Djoser's pyramid would be about 500 years. If your asking about the time from the earliest predynastic king, Scorpion 1, then it would be about 720 years.

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#263    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 13 October 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

From the start of Dynastic Egypt to the construction of Djoser's pyramid would be about 500 years. If your asking about the time from the earliest predynastic king, Scorpion 1, then it would be about 720 years.

cormac

I read that Egyptians,Mayas and Teotihuacan civilization start building pyramids 400 years after organized themselves. I checked Teotihuacan in two sources and it said 400 years after they settle in area they start building pyramids. Mayas are difficult to trace , differs info from another. And Egyptians even more since I didnt know from which point I will start searching. Thanks.

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#264    kmt_sesh

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:55 PM

LOL Gees, L, you change avatar photos more frequently than I change socks. I can't keep track!

This is not a complaint, mind you. It's just some of us old farts recognize a poster first by his or her avatar photo. Goodness, I changed my signature graphic last night and that's the first time I've touched my profile in ages. But again, I'm an old fart.

Something else to consider about Egypt's development, while we're on the topic. The first-known use of dressed stone is in the burial chamber of Khasekhemwy (2690-2663 BCE), at the end of Dynasty 2. I can't recall the details off the top of my head but if I remember correctly some stone may also have been used in a temple constructed in his reign. This is to say, the Egyptians were already making use of stone engineering, even if tentatively, long before the first pyramid was erected.

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#265    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:01 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 13 October 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

LOL Gees, L, you change avatar photos more frequently than I change socks. I can't keep track!

This is not a complaint, mind you. It's just some of us old farts recognize a poster first by his or her avatar photo. Goodness, I changed my signature graphic last night and that's the first time I've touched my profile in ages. But again, I'm an old fart.

Something else to consider about Egypt's development, while we're on the topic. The first-known use of dressed stone is in the burial chamber of Khasekhemwy (2690-2663 BCE), at the end of Dynasty 2. I can't recall the details off the top of my head but if I remember correctly some stone may also have been used in a temple constructed in his reign. This is to say, the Egyptians were already making use of stone engineering, even if tentatively, long before the first pyramid was erected.

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I read on one slavic forum about 400 years before civilization construct pyramids. But its realy hard to check that info because you can strech point A and point B.
I only checked Teotihuacan and it is true I guess. But others are hard. But if you took cormac info then idea about 400 years falls apart already.

Kmt do you know is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great  pyramid?

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#266    Swede

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:43 AM

View Postthe L, on 11 October 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Thanks on links. So is limestone somehow harder to date? Are  you aware of TL dating of GP?

Thermoluminescence dating (TL) is utilized to determine the last time that an artifact was exposed to high temperatures (e.g., fire). It is most commonly utilized to date artifacts such as pottery or features such as clay hearths. Thus, the application of TL dating to Giza structures would be pointless.

The type of dating that you are likely referring to would be Optically Stimulated Luminescence dating (OSL). Without going into great depth, this method of dating determines the last time that an artifact was exposed to sunlight. Exposure to other light sources can zero the accumulated electron charge in the mineral matrices. OSL is only effective when dealing with quartz and feldspar.

The above factors would limit the effectiveness/practicality of OSL dating in regards to Giza structures.

Am unaware of any related OSL studies.

.


#267    kmt_sesh

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:47 AM

View Postthe L, on 13 October 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

Its my shapeshifting strategy to avoid Moderators...Joke...

A pretty damn good joke. :D

Quote

I read on one slavic forum about 400 years before civilization construct pyramids. But its realy hard to check that info because you can strech point A and point B.
I only checked Teotihuacan and it is true I guess. But others are hard. But if you took cormac info then idea about 400 years falls apart already.

It's going to depend largely on the development of the society in question. Every civilization is different and there is no set timescale for socio-political development. You can also think of the Aztecs, who built their own pyramidal structures. The Aztecs were around for only a couple of hundred years. Plus there is cross-cultural transfer to consider. While there's no connection between ancient Egypt and Mesoamerica, there was significant connection between ancient Egypt and Nubia, and the Nubians underwent numerous cultural transformations through the millennia before they built their pyramids—as a direct consequence of their long influence under Egyptian dominion.

Quote

Kmt do you know is there done, if no why if yes- what was result of Thermoluminescence dating of Great  pyramid?

See Swede's comments on thermoluminescence. Swede also mentioned OSL, and I'm not sure it would work on the Great Pyramid. If such has been attempted, I've never read about it. The carbon dating conducted in 1984 and 1995 stands as definitive and no one in Egyptian studies has questioned the findings, so far as I'm aware.

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#268    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:09 PM

Having searched, I find no mention of Queen Hetephere's pyramid in this thread, though it is in others. The question here, is as her tomb was undisturbed, presumably, between initial sealing and modern opening, and well preseved wooden artifacts were discovered, then has carbon dating been done on any of these objects? My thinking is that it will at least give a reasonable date of construction her pyramid, which surely will be within the same range as GP. Further, what, if any, carbon dating has been done on objects that, by normal reasoning, predate GP. Would this not give a bracket within which building of GP will fall, not very precise of course, but should at least preclude the wilder speculations of it's age. Seems more acurate than trying to age the stones themselves.


#269    regeneratia

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 06:56 PM

What is the effect of the geomagnetic field on gravity?

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#270    Harte

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:17 PM

View Postregeneratia, on 16 October 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

What is the effect of the geomagnetic field on gravity?
There is no magnetic interaction with gravity.

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