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Things God Did Not Create


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#1186    Hawkin

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 10:46 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 28 April 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

On the other hand, leave the Bible, the NT and the Koran aside and use Physics to demonstrate to me how the universe caused
itself to exist.

For a species that barely made it to the moon but is incapable of manned interstellar travel, there is only theory how the universe exist.
The Big Bang Theory maybe more an excepted theory by scientist then other proposed theories but there's no 100% certainty.
That's why THEORY is attached to it. But it looks good on paper.

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But to much skepticism can make you narrow minded to extraordinary possibilities.

#1187    spacecowboy342

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:06 AM

In science, with the exception of mathematics, there is never 100% certainty. But when several scientific specialties come to the same conclusions from different directions there are some pretty confident conclusions


#1188    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:17 AM

View Postancient astronaut, on 29 April 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

How can a fictional character create anything???
But of course that is the point. How do you personally KNOW (rather  than believe)  that god is a fictional rather than real character? Where are your empirical evidences, by which you can prove to me the non existence of god?


And  in a separate issue, fictional characters create many things via the belief of  humans in them. Stonehenge, the pyramids, paintings, music etc. are created by humans because of their belief in one form of god or another. Without the existence of those gods in human minds, many things would never be created; so it is the construct of the gods which causes them to exist.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#1189    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 01:24 AM

View PostHawkin, on 29 April 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

For a species that barely made it to the moon but is incapable of manned interstellar travel, there is only theory how the universe exist.
The Big Bang Theory maybe more an excepted theory by scientist then other proposed theories but there's no 100% certainty.
That's why THEORY is attached to it. But it looks good on paper.


Man is quite capable of interstellar travel using a couple of methods. We just require sufficient motivation, and a little more technology to make such travel statistically  more likely to succeed without an unacceptable risk of loss of life.. Europeans (ignoring the earlier viking voyages) had the capability of sailing to the Americas for a long time before they actually did so, to use one historical example.

I do take your point that there is still a lot for humans to learn about the universe.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#1190    davros of skaro

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:21 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 30 April 2014 - 01:17 AM, said:

But of course that is the point. How do you personally KNOW (rather  than believe)  that god is a fictional rather than real character? Where are your empirical evidences, by which you can prove to me the non existence of god?


And  in a separate issue, fictional characters create many things via the belief of  humans in them. Stonehenge, the pyramids, paintings, music etc. are created by humans because of their belief in one form of god or another. Without the existence of those gods in human minds, many things would never be created; so it is the construct of the gods which causes them to exist.

Where is your empirical evidence that Mermaids do not exist?

Inspiration from belief is not evidence for the belief to be real.

What is your diet A-Z, even the source of liquids you take in?

It's for personal research.

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Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
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http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#1191    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 08:56 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 29 April 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

Do we really have to go through all this again?

At least until I get an answer to my question that makes sense to me.


#1192    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 08:58 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 29 April 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:



It's a joke that in your mind you proved God when you have not.

Where is your Nobel peace prize?

If I have not proved God with the Logic that matter cannot cause itself to exist, all you have to do is to prove that it can.


#1193    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:01 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 29 April 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:



If nothing was around to cause the Universe to exist?Then there was no magic sky daddy around either.The imaginary friend you worship is from the same groups of people that buried Babies in the foundations of dwellings to appease the wind from knocking it down.

That's not how an assertion is built: Hypothetically. Tell me according to Physics how some thing can cause itself to exist.


#1194    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:03 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 29 April 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Sheesh how tiresome that issue is.  I haven't read the other responses yet and I'm sure this got attacked already, but let me just point out that causation is an empirical, not a logical, conclusion we make about the world.  If you don't understand what that means you are out of your depth and relying on flawed and uninformed thinking.

There is nothing you can say that will diminish the nature of Logic. I am asking a logical question and I need a logical answer
if you have one.


#1195    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:08 PM

View PostHawkin, on 29 April 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:



For a species that barely made it to the moon but is incapable of manned interstellar travel, there is only theory how the universe exist.
The Big Bang Theory maybe more an excepted theory by scientist then other proposed theories but there's no 100% certainty.
That's why THEORY is attached to it. But it looks good on paper.

All right, theories are propositions akin to guesses. The universe exists and the Cosmologists guess that it began with the big
big bang. If it began, it was caused to begin. Who or what did that job? If you don't know, how about appealing to the concept of
probability that the Primal Cause has become obvious?


#1196    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:12 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 30 April 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

In science, with the exception of mathematics, there is never 100% certainty. But when several scientific specialties come to the same conclusions from different directions there are some pretty confident conclusions

More than several scientists have come to the conclusion that with the big bang the universe began. This was corroborated in 1922.
The Bible has been saying so for thousands of years. Never mind that our scientists never acknowledge that info. The point is
that if the universe had a beginning, some thing must have cause it to begin because nothing begins itself to exist.


#1197    Mr Walker

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:11 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 30 April 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Where is your empirical evidence that Mermaids do not exist?

Inspiration from belief is not evidence for the belief to be real.

What is your diet A-Z, even the source of liquids you take in?

It's for personal research.
I do not know if mermaids exist or not.  Historically manatee or sea cows were seen by sailors as mermaids.

I can trace the historical fictional construction of mermaids in literature, but I cannot KNOW they do not exist  (or did not once exist). On the other hand,  I can know they exist, if I ever encounter one.

I have encountered 'god' in many manifestations many times, hence I know it exists. So I also know that  no one can prove that "god' does not exist.  (although they might correctly debate that title for this being)

But this was not my point. How can a writer claim to KNOW that god does not exist, and hence that all deists are delusional or simply wrong? They cannot.  There is no evidence that god does not exist and much evidence that it does.The best they can have is a very strong belief in this proposition.

Ancient astronaut made an assumption based on belief not knowledge ie that god is fictional and thus cannot create physical things  I would like him to explain how he claims  knowledge that god is fictional, or admit that this is a belief (and I accept, quite a legitimate and logical belief) but not knowledge.

I don't get your last two comments or their relevance.

Edited by Mr Walker, 30 April 2014 - 11:24 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#1198    spacecowboy342

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 01:44 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 30 April 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

If I have not proved God with the Logic that matter cannot cause itself to exist, all you have to do is to prove that it can.
Since there is evidence that matter exists but none that God exists, I would say this implies matter needed no creator. Ball's back in your court


#1199    davros of skaro

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:03 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 30 April 2014 - 11:11 PM, said:


I do not know if mermaids exist or not.  Historically manatee or sea cows were seen by sailors as mermaids.

I can trace the historical fictional construction of mermaids in literature, but I cannot KNOW they do not exist  (or did not once exist). On the other hand,  I can know they exist, if I ever encounter one.

I have encountered 'god' in many manifestations many times, hence I know it exists. So I also know that  no one can prove that "god' does not exist.  (although they might correctly debate that title for this being)

But this was not my point. How can a writer claim to KNOW that god does not exist, and hence that all deists are delusional or simply wrong? They cannot.  There is no evidence that god does not exist and much evidence that it does.The best they can have is a very strong belief in this proposition.

Ancient astronaut made an assumption based on belief not knowledge ie that god is fictional and thus cannot create physical things  I would like him to explain how he claims  knowledge that god is fictional, or admit that this is a belief (and I accept, quite a legitimate and logical belief) but not knowledge.

I don't get your last two comments or their relevance.

Just as a Sea Cow turns into a Mermaid, so has emotion turns into a God.

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Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#1200    davros of skaro

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:08 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 30 April 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:



If I have not proved God with the Logic that matter cannot cause itself to exist, all you have to do is to prove that it can.

Scientists are working on it, and God is an ever shrinking concept.

You keep echoing "cause" as if it's a slam dunk, but you are just holding onto a logical fallacy.

http://en.m.wikipedi..._from_ignorance





Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief




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