19 replies to this topic

[Mr Right Wing]

Hasina, on 21 January 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Other then that last bit, it just seems to be your personal taste in women, and we're all allowed to have different preferences as long as we don't force it on the whole of everyone else, IMO.

So, may I ask, women who are providers rather then mothers smell bad to you or what do you mean by that?

I think its their pheromones.

[joc]

notoverrated, on 21 January 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

i wouldnt exactly say wrong, every family has their own set of morals and expectations for their children.

So, if I expect my daughter to get married and be barefoot and pregnant and be totally submissive to her husband, even though she has a yearning desire to be, say, for instance, the CEO of her own company; that is 'right'?

[Sean93]

The more things are labelled, the more cracks that appear in human equality.

Some labels we could do without in the world:
Gay
*Insert religious faith here* (Especially for kids)
Black/White
Meninist/Feminist
Immigrant
I don't need to tell any of you why these labels should vanish; you should know why the are accepted provocateurs.

Things like gay pride and black history month etc. should vanish. No one celebrates that they're white (unless their supremacist ****s) and no one celebrates their straightness so why should there be special occasions for skin color and something so banal as sexuality.It's almost like we all love putting ourselves into little groups and playing about with it.

[Liquid Gardens]

Sean93, on 24 January 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

The more things are labelled, the more cracks that appear in human equality.

Some labels we could do without in the world:
Gay
*Insert religious faith here* (Especially for kids)
Black/White
Meninist/Feminist
Immigrant
I don't need to tell any of you why these labels should vanish; you should know why the are accepted provocateurs.

I've got to disagree with you a little on this one, Sean; I think the first sentence should be somewhat reversed:  the more cracks that appear in humanity, the more people have labels affixed to them (sometimes by choice).  I agree with your main point in a perfect world, which if I were to rephrase it would be, 'we're all the same we're all just people and grouping and labelling each other has the effect of dividing us'.  Gay people in a way do need a word like 'gay' (from a political standpoint I mean, it obviously is a useful identifier when trying to hook up) specifically because of the bigot turds who have singled out homosexuals for abuse, because they are discriminated against, and because of the abusive words/slurs that have been created to describe them. Joining together as gays gives them a stronger and more influential voice.  In a sense ultimately I do agree with what I think you're getting at; I'm ready for everyone to start thinking of one another as just 'people' anytime now.  But I'm not the one to be saying that time is now, as I'm not personally a member of any significant minority group in the US, I'm not the one to say to blacks or gays that they are being treated as 'just people' currently. So it's up to them if they want to continue to push for equality and their causes for their groups or just celebrate their group.  It is not as if I can say that either of those groups are treated equally today yet. (Actually I don't think gay pride parades are limited to gays, I believe heteros are welcome, which wouldn't then be divisive)

Quote

Things like gay pride and black history month etc. should vanish. No one celebrates that they're white (unless their supremacist ****s) and no one celebrates their straightness so why should there be special occasions for skin color and something so banal as sexuality.It's almost like we all love putting ourselves into little groups and playing about with it.

But gays and blacks have been victimized (to put it extremely lightly) for the majority of US history (I can't say as far as Ireland) and it's a crime to be gay in many countries (just saw it on wiki, in 36% of the world's countries, consensual homosexual acts are illegal).  That changes the whole game.  I agree sexuality and skin color are totally banal... to you and I.  There are a lot of people who are prejudiced though, to them it is not at all banal, nor obviously is it to the people they abuse or discriminate against.  Straight white people (and by 'people' I of course mean 'men') have been the majority for a long time and every day's a relative celebration for them, it's not like we typically have to worry about someone abusing us or not giving us a job or saying nasty crap to us just because of our skin color or sexuality (taking the populations as a whole, there are of course specific exceptions).

Black History Month I don't think should ever vanish in the US, I find black slavery and racism to be the worst, most embarassing things about the US's history, and think slavery was the biggest atrocity we've ever commited; it went on for generations, blows my mind. One of the things that really bugs me is that some Americans and politicians tend to go way overboard with the idea of American exceptionalism, as I believe they think it's somehow patriotic which really sells over here. They essentially think we're the best at everything (well if you ignore education, health care, financial responsibility, our current tendency to get into decade-long wars, small things like that) compared to the hellholes all you other furriners must live in (we wouldn't really know, we don't need none that fancy book-learnin), and I think that should be tempered by not forgetting the seriously bad, evil, mortifying institutions (again, mind blown, not in a good way) like slavery that got us here.  And to not forget that just because slavery is over, no one can honestly say that the level of racism is really low enough in society to 'even us all out' as just 'people'.  Anyway, just a pet peeve, and again, you may have a different perspective on it if you're in Ireland.  If you'd like to organize a, 'Ostracize and Shun (and maybe Tazer) the Bigots Month', I'm with ya man.

[Sean93]

Liquid Gardens, on 25 January 2013 - 02:18 AM, said:

I've got to disagree with you a little on this one, Sean; I think the first sentence should be somewhat reversed:  the more cracks that appear in humanity, the more people have labels affixed to them (sometimes by choice).  I agree with your main point in a perfect world, which if I were to rephrase it would be, 'we're all the same we're all just people and grouping and labelling each other has the effect of dividing us'.  Gay people in a way do need a word like 'gay' (from a political standpoint I mean, it obviously is a useful identifier when trying to hook up) specifically because of the bigot turds who have singled out homosexuals for abuse, because they are discriminated against, and because of the abusive words/slurs that have been created to describe them. Joining together as gays gives them a stronger and more influential voice.  In a sense ultimately I do agree with what I think you're getting at; I'm ready for everyone to start thinking of one another as just 'people' anytime now.  But I'm not the one to be saying that time is now, as I'm not personally a member of any significant minority group in the US, I'm not the one to say to blacks or gays that they are being treated as 'just people' currently. So it's up to them if they want to continue to push for equality and their causes for their groups or just celebrate their group.  It is not as if I can say that either of those groups are treated equally today yet. (Actually I don't think gay pride parades are limited to gays, I believe heteros are welcome, which wouldn't then be divisive)



But gays and blacks have been victimized (to put it extremely lightly) for the majority of US history (I can't say as far as Ireland) and it's a crime to be gay in many countries (just saw it on wiki, in 36% of the world's countries, consensual homosexual acts are illegal).  That changes the whole game.  I agree sexuality and skin color are totally banal... to you and I.  There are a lot of people who are prejudiced though, to them it is not at all banal, nor obviously is it to the people they abuse or discriminate against.  Straight white people (and by 'people' I of course mean 'men') have been the majority for a long time and every day's a relative celebration for them, it's not like we typically have to worry about someone abusing us or not giving us a job or saying nasty crap to us just because of our skin color or sexuality (taking the populations as a whole, there are of course specific exceptions).

Black History Month I don't think should ever vanish in the US, I find black slavery and racism to be the worst, most embarassing things about the US's history, and think slavery was the biggest atrocity we've ever commited; it went on for generations, blows my mind. One of the things that really bugs me is that some Americans and politicians tend to go way overboard with the idea of American exceptionalism, as I believe they think it's somehow patriotic which really sells over here. They essentially think we're the best at everything (well if you ignore education, health care, financial responsibility, our current tendency to get into decade-long wars, small things like that) compared to the hellholes all you other furriners must live in (we wouldn't really know, we don't need none that fancy book-learnin), and I think that should be tempered by not forgetting the seriously bad, evil, mortifying institutions (again, mind blown, not in a good way) like slavery that got us here.  And to not forget that just because slavery is over, no one can honestly say that the level of racism is really low enough in society to 'even us all out' as just 'people'.  Anyway, just a pet peeve, and again, you may have a different perspective on it if you're in Ireland.  If you'd like to organize a, 'Ostracize and Shun (and maybe Tazer) the Bigots Month', I'm with ya man.

I agree, I should have elaborated more on my point.

In countries where ethnic minorities and people of homosexuality are chastised, then there should be uprisings against such oppressive establishments. As for black history month, I do get what you're saying in terms of not letting the powers that be forget the horrible treatment that was directed towards people simply because they were black - that's a valid reason.

In my town and the places where being gay is commonplace and accepted without these people being stricken down for their nature, the gay pride parades are simply there to state 'we are gay' kinda' like the old saying 'we're here, we're queer, and we're different.' - A gay pride parade in an area where it's okay to be gay really only separates the gay people from the rest of society (we're different) and can lead to an 'us and them' attitude and thus sparks fly when homophobes see this. There's nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, there's just no need for a public demonstration of it, same goes for things like religion and skin colour because like I said, it can lead to an 'us and them' attitude if it's all goes south.
Of course if more gay movements focus on the emancipation of their gay neighbours and less on simply being gay, I think more would get done.

I'm all for an uprising against establishments and powers that oppress because of who they are, it really is stupid and totalitarian and this goes for all things, whether it be skin colour, religious affiliation or sexuality.

P.s. In Ireland, I don't think there's ever been a big anti-gay movement on the scale of that in America, or that there's been much oppression of ethnic minorities and that is simply because we Irish have been on the receiving end of oppression for hundred of years, right up to the early 90's when troops were taken off our streets. More to the point, my town is now really Pro-gay and half of the girls I know are lesbian or bi-sexual, everyone is coming out like it's a trend.

Edited by Sean93, 25 January 2013 - 05:54 PM.