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The Qur'aan Cosmological Model


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#241    TheLionsHunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:45 PM

View PostXingWi, on 27 March 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Hello Muslims folks, Can I ask you a question? What are you planning to achieve with this discussion? Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing your religion, in fact I deeply venerate Islam for the purest form of monotheism it preaches. I have read Koran from cover to cover and gained spiritual knowledge from it that I would not find elsewhere, but I never saw it as a book meant to inform about "science". Scientific findings are always changing. Why would anyone want to link their scriptures to constantly changing science and put their own faith in danger?

We don't put our faith in danger, this is not the case. Just answering the question that Quran contains some scientific evidence that man should look for it and try to understand it, Quran is for all eras and for all times, even if science changes, Quran holds its words but the understandings will of course change from time to time, and there it lies the miracle. Even if the discovery finds something else, and even if someone tries to make a bridge between the discovery with some statement in Quran, that's only be his/her understandings and it will not be a fact.

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#242    TheLionsHunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 01:50 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

I'm sorry are you saying those verses inspired him or that he looked at th verses and logically deducted Algebra from the specific calculations in those verses?

No, I said that he found many dilemma in inheritance and to acheive his goal, he tried to make calculation and throught that he was doing algebra. The legal inheritance was in a 5 to 6 verses but to enlarge it you need many books to do that.

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#243    goodconversations

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:23 PM

View PostTheLionsHunter, on 27 March 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Quran holds its words but the understandings will of course change from time to time, and there it lies the miracle.

So the Quran's miracle lies in the understanding of people?

Quote

Even if the discovery finds something else, and even if someone tries to make a bridge between the discovery with some statement in Quran, that's only be his/her understandings and it will not be a fact.

Does this mean that this post tests a cosmological model against the Quran and does not provide The Cosmological Model of Quran?

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#244    goodconversations

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

View PostTheLionsHunter, on 27 March 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

No, I said that he found many dilemma in inheritance and to acheive his goal, he tried to make calculation and throught that he was doing algebra. The legal inheritance was in a 5 to 6 verses but to enlarge it you need many books to do that.

So he didn't deduce science from the Quran. I rest my case.

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#245    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 02:41 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

I believe the verses are: 88:20, 71:19, 2:22, 51:48, 87:6, 50:7



Each of the verbs/words in question is/could be traced to a root verb. This root typically has several meanings. To understand the verse, one will end up with a collection of meanings of his/her own choice from among all the other meanings of each of the words of the verse. His choices are influnced by his/her already existing knowledge/ideas. If he/she has got the wrong idea, his/her choice of meanings will be wrong. If the choice of meanings is wrong, so will be the translation which in this case can't be called "literal" because it's actually an interpretation.




Unless this meaning is the ONLY meaning found in the Arabic language, it's not helping your argument.



In fact, the Quran,  only made the choice of words. The reader/interpreter, in this case you and them, makes the choice of meanings; i.e. specifies what the Quran "refers" to. How are these two things the same if you can't ask the owner of the Quran/Allah?



Actually the classic exegeses of the Quran do not present all possible interpretations. They only present what was likelier/more probable in their time(s). Yet only a few would dare call them shallow. The modern exegeses do the same.

I wasn't trying to prove something when i pointed out that example. I was asking the poster some questions and the example was to clarify my question.
it's not black and white
the meaning of words depends on the rest of the line
that topic i made shows you great example of how people tried to play on words in arabic
to change the whole meaning

if you read the topic i provided you'd reach a point where they replaced " lowest " with " nearest "
with not even related meaning nor interperting between the two
this is kinda of the same thing only tricker
there is also nothing to support the argument in your post to support that Quran says the earth was flat
that is if we're going to use the same analogy you're using .. you're also wrong and it'll be unsettled results on both sides

however my argument is .. NO matter how you look at your example it never shows " flat " in any way
simply because the source of مهادا word is مهد
for example when some one pave the road .. smooth the road ... in arabic it equals " مهد الطريق "
you can't say made the road  flat .. it'll be flawed language
so again it's two seperate things they're trying to connect with that example
so it can be anything .. i could be wrong in everything . but it can never mean " flat "
cause " flat " has obvious words in arabic to describe it " مستقيم - مسطح "

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#246    TheLionsHunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:04 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

So the Quran's miracle lies in the understanding of people?

Yes, sure but I think you are taking that as a clue for ending the subject. Some people can give a certain fact of a miracle with a new discovery if they have the knowledge of science and the knowledge of the Quranic statements. And it doesn't end that way the understanding evolves and the science evolves too and this in no way against any statement in the Quran. Like for example as you stated before that before muslums thought that earth is flat but when the understandings have evolved they have found that flat is one of the meanings of  the real meaning that has been changed through time.

View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

Does this mean that this post tests a cosmological model against the Quran and does not provide The Cosmological Model of Quran?

It does provide until it proven false, he is doing a great work and he is pointing to the subject from many ways "language, numbers, calculatio, astronomy, and with many scientific research". There is a known saying in our muslum world that the scientist if he applies his reasoning and he was correct then he will have two rewards, and if it applies it (the reasoning) and he was mistaken, then he will have one reward

Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him said:

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#247    TheLionsHunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:09 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

So he didn't deduce science from the Quran. I rest my case.

Stick to your guns, maybe or maybe not but he did. You don't have any knowledge of the Quranic statement and you don't have the language too (arabic language) so I can assume that there it lies your perplexity

Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him said:

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#248    goodconversations

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 27 March 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:


the meaning of words depends on the rest of the line

Not exclusively. It may also depend on related verses including those in other places of the Quran. For example, after science found that the earth was not flat, other verses in the Quran were re-interpreted in favor of the new finding.

Quote

that topic i made shows you great example of how people tried to play on words in arabic
to change the whole meaning
if you read the topic i provided you'd reach a point where they replaced " lowest " with " nearest "


your choice of words suggests "they" bad intentions . "They"=those who chose to interpret the word in question as "lowest" which you argue is the correct meaning.

Quote

with not even related meaning nor interperting between the two

Are you saying that among the meanings of the Arabic word in question there's no one word that translates "nearest" at all? How come this meaning (nearest) was used in classic exegeses? Were "they" playing with words too?

Quote

there is also nothing to support the argument in your post to support that Quran says the earth was flat

I didn't say the Quran said the earth was flat.  I said: "there was a time when people of science believed the earth was flat. Muslims had no problem with that belief because certain verses were interpreted in a way that supported that claim."

Quote

that is if we're going to use the same analogy you're using
If we're going to be logical about it: if Muslim didn't think those verses meant the earth was flat, why wasn't it (a)Muslim who (was) were the first to state that the earth was NOT flat? Meaning why couldn't they be the ones to deduce from all the verses right in their hands that the earth was not flat as was the common belief but oval as Muslim now say the Quran stated?

Quote


.. you're also wrong and it'll be unsettled results on both sides

It's not me who says there must be a settled result. Nor was it me who claimed  that science was/could be deduced from the Quran. Nor was it me who named the post: The Quran Cosmological Model.

Quote

however my argument is .. NO matter how you look at your example it never shows " flat " in any way
simply because the source of مهادا word is مهد
for example when some one pave the road .. smooth the road ... in arabic it equals " مهد الطريق "
you can't say made the road  flat .. it'll be flawed language
so again it's two seperate things they're trying to connect with that example
so it can be anything .. i could be wrong in everything . but it can never mean " flat "
cause " flat " has obvious words in arabic to describe it " مستقيم - مسطح "

You are, as they are/were, being selective in choosing meanings that reason with your your knowledge/ideas. I'm sure there are many other meanings of both the Arabic word and "flat" that made perfect sense of the the interpretation in question. Otherwise, if Muslim didn't think those verses meant the earth was flat, why wasn't it (a)Muslim who (was) were the first to state that the earth was NOT flat? Meaning why couldn't they be the ones to deduce from all the verses right in their hands that the earth was not flat as was the common belief but oval as Muslim now say the Quran stated?

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#249    goodconversations

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:04 PM

View PostTheLionsHunter, on 27 March 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

Yes

So when the understanding is wrong, the Quran ceases to be a miracle?




Quote

It does provide until it proven false

How can you say "it does" then you say "until" to favor "a" to "the"? There are many scientists who don't support the BBT explanation. That's enough of a proof that any conclusion based on it is wrong at least to them. Unless you're saying it won't be proven wrong, it's not helping your argument.


Quote

he is doing a great work and he is pointing to the subject from many ways "language, numbers, calculatio, astronomy, and with many scientific research".


So every and any hardworker can claim the prize?

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#250    goodconversations

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:28 PM

View PostTheLionsHunter, on 27 March 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

maybe or maybe not but he did.

That alone negates deduction.


Quote

You don't have any knowledge of the Quranic statement


How do you know? Instances please


Quote

and you don't have the language too (arabic language) so I can assume that there it lies your perplexity


Where and how did i show such perplexity? Furthermore, how did/do handle my perplexity because of the language barrier as you said? Should i just take your word for it?

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#251    TheLionsHunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 04:47 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

So when the understanding is wrong, the Quran ceases to be a miracle?

This is irrelevant. You are confusing between the miracle in th Quranic statement with the understanding of someone of the miracle. it still even if the understanding is wrong.



View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

How can you say "it does" then you say "until" to favor "a" to "the"? There are many scientists who don't support the BBT explanation. That's enough of a proof that any conclusion based on it is wrong at least to them. Unless you're saying it won't be proven wrong, it's not helping your argument.

You can't say that because you are jumping to the conclusions right after one's says that this is not going to work, you must back up your statement by proofs and evidence otherwise, your statement can not be taken seriously. You said many scientists, so try to enlrage that with the BBT explanation.


View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

So every and any hardworker can claim the prize?

This is irrelevant too, I was pointing out to someone who has the ability and the knowledge of the Quran and science.

Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him said:

{I seek refuge in Allah from knowledge that brings no wisdom, from a heart that lacks kindness, from desires that bring discontent, and from supplications that go unanswered . }

#252    TheLionsHunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:05 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

That alone negates deduction.

maybe or maybe not is for you, so it does negate deduction for your opinion and it will be only your opinion, not mine. I said that to make you close your statement and you did :)



View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

How do you know? Instances please

This is one of the lack of the knowledge of the Quranic statement you have pointed out:
"It may also depend on related verses including those in other places of the Quran. For example, after science found that the earth was not flat, other verses in the Quran were re-interpreted in favor of the new finding".

That's not true what you stated, otherwise you need to back up your statement






View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

Where and how did i show such perplexity? Furthermore, how did/do handle my perplexity because of the language barrier as you said? Should i just take your word for it?

The perplexity you did show in the post (I've read other posts of you too and there is more than this) where you have answered knights of shadow, when you said that "mihaad" is your own selective meaning. You don't know that even if a word in arabic has many meanings, it still hold its own meaning if it is alone, with sentence it can take many forms and many meaning according to the use of the sentence and to the use of the word in the sentence.

"You are, as they are/were, being selective in choosing meanings that reason with your your knowledge/ideas"


P.S : Don't cut my posts into pieces, you are selecting what goes with your replies

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#253    goodconversations

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:32 PM

View PostTheLionsHunter, on 27 March 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

it still even if the understanding is wrong.

You say the miracle of the Quran lies in the understanding of people yet it remains a miracle even if the understanding is wrong. Wow. Anyway, let's roll with your latest opinion. It means the Quran being a miracle is irrelevant to the understanding of people. How does the miracle of the Quran -which is a book ... words- show if people keep misunderstanding it hence no understanding at all?

Quote

You can't say that because you are jumping to the conclusions right after one's says that this is not going to work


Where did i say this or that isn't going to work?





Quote

I was pointing out to someone who has the ability and the knowledge of the Quran and science.



Let me rephrase: "so every hardworker, who has the ability and the knowledge and science, can claim the prize?

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#254    TheLionsHunter

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:55 PM

View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

You say the miracle of the Quran lies in the understanding of people yet it remains a miracle even if the understanding is wrong. Wow. Anyway, let's roll with your latest opinion. It means the Quran being a miracle is irrelevant to the understanding of people. How does the miracle of the Quran -which is a book ... words- show if people keep misunderstanding it hence no understanding at all?

Well, you still don't get my point of view, it's not about understanding or misunderstanding, it's about "Ejtihaad" of someone's understanding. I don't know the right word for "Ejtihaad" the nearest is "studiousness" I suppose.



View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Where did i say this or that isn't going to work?

I gave you an example of someone's jumping to conclusion like you and saying that is not going to work, you did that too when you said that many scientists disagree with BBT explanation without backing up this statement with any reference or any biased scientists who said otherwise.





View Postgoodconversations, on 27 March 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

Let me rephrase: "so every hardworker, who has the ability and the knowledge and science, can claim the prize?

It's not up to him to claim the prize. He or she who has the ability and the knowledge of Quran and science made efforts and hardworking to understand a phenomena are in two options if he or she is right then he or she gets two rewards "rewards not prize" the word in arabic is "Ajr" and it means something else it's about blessing. the Second option is when he or she is wrong, there will be only one reward.

Edited by TheLionsHunter, 27 March 2013 - 05:56 PM.

Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him said:

{I seek refuge in Allah from knowledge that brings no wisdom, from a heart that lacks kindness, from desires that bring discontent, and from supplications that go unanswered . }

#255    goodconversations

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 06:28 PM

View PostTheLionsHunter, on 27 March 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

maybe or maybe not is for you, so it does negate deduction for your opinion and it will be only your opinion, not mine. I said that to make you close your statement and you did :)

So you made up a reply that was irrelevant to both my question and your argument so that i "close my statement" which "i did". How witty of you. Now, do you have any other examples of science being deducted from the Quran? Also google deduction before you proceed.


Quote

This is one of the lack of the knowledge of the Quranic statement you have pointed out:

Quote

"It may also depend on related verses including those in other places of the Quran. For example, after science found that the earth was not flat, other verses in the Quran were re-interpreted in favor of the new finding".


That's not true what you stated, otherwise you need to back up your statement

So i don't have the knowledge because i didn't specify the verses not because you asked and i failed. Wow.
39:5 and 79:31 are re-interpreted in favor of the oval shape of the earth (after it was found oval).



Quote

The perplexity you did show in the post (I've read other posts of you too and there is more than this)

I'm perplexed because i say: people are selective in choosing the meanings that reason with their knowledge/ideas.

while you, who are not perplexed, think:



Quote

that even if a word in arabic has many meanings, it still hold its own meaning if it is alone, with sentence it can take many forms and many meaning according to the use of the sentence and to the use of the word in the sentence.

How is that different than what i said? I'm perplexed here. Moreover, how do you explain a wrong understanding if not, for one, by making wrong selections of meanings?




Quote

P.S : Don't cut my posts into pieces, you are selecting what goes with your replies

I select what i need to talk about/understand. How does that harm/bother/offend/annoy you?

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