11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 09:39 AM, said:

The reason I posted about Vega (> Frya), Arcturus (> Finda) and Sirius (> Lyda) is because of their names, because they belong to the 5 brightest stars, because Sirius was an important star in the mythology/religion and so on in northern Africa, and because they are all 3 near the pole star.

Yesterday I even wanted to post about the 'Big Dipper' or the 'Little Dipper' because they look a lot like a 'kroder' or wheelbarrow and are near the pole star.

-

You don't get where 12 comes from? Each earth mother, Frya, Lyda and Finda, gave birth to 12 sons & daughters, 12 couples. 3x12=36 > 36 decans.

The devision of the horscope wheel into 3 parts is known in astrology as cardinal,fixed and mutable signs, like I showed you.

Lyda out of fierce heat: Aries (+ Cancer, Libra, Capricorn) / Aries is a fire sign.

Finda out of strong heat: Taurus (+ Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius) /  Taurus is an earth sign.

Frya out of moderate heat: Gemini (+ Virgo, Sagittarius, Pisces) / Gemini is an air sign.

Yes, but the decans are 10. There were 36 [4] decans (36 X 10 = 360 days). plus 5 added days to compose the 365 days of a solar based year.

But then: Eventually this system led to a system of 12 daytime hours and 12 nighttime hours, varying in length according to the season. Later, a system of 24 "equinoctial" hours was used.


They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters—at every Juul-time a couple. Thence come all mankind.

I'd be inclined to think the 12 sons and 12 daughters were the hours - 24 hours were born each Juul time from each of them.

But the Zodiac signs explanation sounds fair.

I'm not sure about your choice of stars yet.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 09:47 AM, said:

The date of 2193 BC is nowhere mentioned in the Friesche Volksalmanak. It is the result of a calculation, and even then the result should be 2194 BC, not 2193 BC (there is NO year zero).



This is what the underlined sentences say:

The year afer the birth of our Lord J.C. : 1839
Since the Flood: 4032

1839-4032=2193. No year zero, so it is 2194 BC.

.

So compare this with the Hinlooper almanak of 1679: 4005 - 1679 = 2326 BC. If you like 2327 BC.

Edited by Knul, 17 December 2011 - 10:31 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 December 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:

Yes, but the decans are 10. There were 36 [4] decans (36 X 10 = 360 days). plus 5 added days to compose the 365 days of a solar based year.

But then: Eventually this system led to a system of 12 daytime hours and 12 nighttime hours, varying in length according to the season. Later, a system of 24 "equinoctial" hours was used.


They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters—at every Juul-time a couple. Thence come all mankind.

I'd be inclined to think the 12 sons and 12 daughters were the hours - 24 hours were born each Juul time from each of them.

But the Zodiac signs explanation sounds fair.

I'm not sure about your choice of stars yet.

What's your point about those decans? I know they are 10 degrees wide and that there are 36 of them.

And 36=3x12.

Believe me, I do not even have to google anything.... thirty years ago I was sometimes busy calculating horsocopes till 2 am. in the morning, and that with logarithm tables.

Twelve sons and twelve daughters.. could be the number of hours a day or simply the number of zodiak signs (or months) with each their male and female characteristics.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 17 December 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:

So compare this with the Hinlooper almanak of 1679: 4005 - 1679 = 2326 BC. If you like 2327 BC.

I just read the Enkhuizer Alamanak of 1841, and it doesn't gives a date for the Flood, it doesn't even mention it:

D'Erve C. Stichters Enkhuizer almanak 1841

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

And to Puzzler: it is crammed to the brim with astrology.

At page 74 there is a "Don Anthonio Magino" predicting the weather for that year. A pity you can't read the commentary of the composer at the end, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 December 2011 - 11:45 AM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 11:40 AM, said:

I just read the Enkhuizer Alamanak of 1841, and it doesn't gives a date for the Flood, it doesn't even mention it:

D'Erve C. Stichters Enkhuizer almanak 1841

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

And to Puzzler: it is crammed to the brim with astrology.

At page 74 there is a "Don Anthonio Magino" predicting the weather for that year. A pity you can't read the commentary of the composer at the end, lol.

.

I didn't talk about the Enkhuizer Almanak, but about the Hindelooper Almanak of 1679. s. http://books.google....AAJ&redir_esc=y p.194-195. I could not attach a picture of the page.

Edited by Knul, 17 December 2011 - 01:34 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 11:33 AM, said:

What's your point about those decans? I know they are 10 degrees wide and that there are 36 of them.

And 36=3x12.

Believe me, I do not even have to google anything.... thirty years ago I was sometimes busy calculating horsocopes till 2 am. in the morning, and that with logarithm tables.

Twelve sons and twelve daughters.. could be the number of hours a day or simply the number of zodiak signs (or months) with each their male and female characteristics.

OK, forget the decans, Ive just been studying my star chart on the Northern Sky and this might fit, it is marked with 24 hours around the outside - which goes 1 year - each month is marked - then the Northern Sky - each 1/3 is 8 hours, marked by 2 hr portions - if you divide the circle by 3 you get the Peace symbol, lol, then into each of those portions you have 1 each of the stars you said - Lyra in one, Sirius in another and Arcturus in the other 1/3.

Here's some Norse constellations too:
http://timothystepha...tellations.html

More on Northern Night Sky (ancient times)
http://timothystepha...01-NightSky.pdf

The oldest star chart known may be a carved ivory Mammoth tusk that was discovered in Germany in 1979. This artifact is 32,500 years old and has a carving that resembles the constellation Orion.[1] A drawing on the wall of the Lascaux caves in France has a graphical representation of the Pleiades open cluster of stars. This is dated to 33,000 to 10,000 years ago. Researcher Michael A. Rappenglueck has suggested that a panel in the same caves depicting a charging bison, a man with a bird's head and the head of a bird on top of a piece of wood, together may depict the summer triangle, which at the time was a circumpolar formation.[2] Another star chart panel, created more than 21,000 years ago, was found in the La Tęte du Lion grotto. The bovine in this panel may represent the constellation Taurus, with a pattern representing the Pleiades located just above it.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Star_chart

I'm just downloading that great old map to look at too.

[Knul]

The Groninger Almanak follows the Frisian Almanak (2193), the Overijsselsche Almanak and Geldersche Almanak do not give data for the Great Flood.

Edited by Knul, 17 December 2011 - 02:39 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 17 December 2011 - 01:32 PM, said:

I didn't talk about the Enkhuizer Almanak, but about the Hindelooper Almanak of 1679. s. http://books.google....AAJ&redir_esc=y p.194-195. I could not attach a picture of the page.

I know you didn't, but I did.

Anyway, here's a screenshot of that Hindelooper Almanak:



1679-4005=2326 > 2326+1=2327 BC.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Found another one:


Den grooten Brugschen comptoir-almanach voor het jaar 1756, 1774, 1790

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false




1774-4067=2293 >> 2294 BC.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 December 2011 - 03:50 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 17 December 2011 - 01:41 PM, said:

OK, forget the decans, Ive just been studying my star chart on the Northern Sky and this might fit, it is marked with 24 hours around the outside - which goes 1 year - each month is marked - then the Northern Sky - each 1/3 is 8 hours, marked by 2 hr portions - if you divide the circle by 3 you get the Peace symbol, lol, then into each of those portions you have 1 each of the stars you said - Lyra in one, Sirius in another and Arcturus in the other 1/3.

Can you make a screenshot of that one, pls?

[Otharus]

According to "Frisia" by Hamconius (1609), the original Frisian coat of arms had water-lily leaves ("pompebladen") in it.

Why 'pomp'-leaves?

Wiki Flag of Friesland has no answer:

The Frisian flag, is the official flag of the Dutch province of Friesland. It consists of four blue and three white diagonal stripes; in the white stripes are a total of seven red pompeblêden, stylised heart-shaped leaves of yellow water-lily.

The seven red pompeblêden are a reference to the Frisian "sea countries" in the Middle Ages: independent regions along the coast from Alkmaar to the Weser who were allied against the Vikings. There were never precisely seven distinct rulers, but the number seven probably has the connotation "many."

Since the 11th century a coat of arms with pompeblêdden is known. Evidence for this lies within verses of the Gudrunlied. Round 1200 Scandinavian coats of arms reveal many traces of water-lilies and hearts, found often in combination with images of lions.

15th century books on heraldry show that two armorial bearings were derived from the early ones: a coat of arms showing lions and seven pompeblêdden transformed into little blocks, the other being the arms with the seven now known lilies on stripes.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The following fragment of Oera Linda Book could explain why 'pomp'-leaves had a very important meaning to the old Frisians:

[OLB p.064/11] ca. 1630 BC; KÀLTA's speech:

SVNUM ÀND TOGHATRUM FRYA.S.
I WÉT WEL THÀT WI INNA LERSTE TÍD FÚL LEK ÀND BREK LÉDEN HÀVE.
THRVCHDAM THA STJURAR NAVT LÔNGER KVME VMB.VS SKRIF.FILT TO VRSELLA.
[...]
ANDA ÔRA SYDE THÉRE SKELDA HWÉR HJA TOMET THA FÉRT FON ALLE SÉA HÀVE
THÉR MÁKATH HJA HJVD.DÉGON SKRIF.FILT FON POMPA.BLÉDAR
THÉRMITH SPARATH HJA LINNENT UT ÀND KÀNATH HJA VS WEL MISTE.
NÉIDAM THÀT SKRIF.FILT MÁKJA. NV ALTI VS GRÁTESTE BIDRIV WÉST.IS.
SÁ HETH THJU MODER WILT THAT MÀN.ET VS LÉRA SKOLDE.

Improved English translation (as Sandbach had too many errors):

Sons and daughters of Frya,
you know well that we in last times have suffered much loss and misery
because the sailors no longer come to buy our writing-felt
[...]
On the other side of the Scheldt, where they almost have the trade of all seas,
there they nowadays make writing-felt of water-lily leaves.
With that they save linen and no longer need us (lit.: can they miss us).
Because the making of writing-felt has always been our greatest trade,
the mother willed that one should teach us

So first "SKRIF-FILT" was used, made of "LINNENT", later paper made of "POMPA-BLÉDAR".

In the OLB, a word for 'paper' is used only once,  as "PAMPÍER" [letter Hidde (1256 AD) line 11]:

VMBE HJA NAVT TO VRLYSA HÀB IK RA VP WRLANDISK PAMPÍER VVRSKRÉVEN.
In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper. (Sandbach)

The word "paper" in modern European languages never has a "M" before the second "P" (or "B"):

paber - Estonian
páipéar - Irish
papel - Spanish, Portuguese
paper - English
папир - Servian
папера - White-Russian
paperi - Finnish
papier - Dutch, Frisian, German, French, Polish, Slovakian
papir - Danish, Norwegian, Kroatian, Ukrainian (папір)
papír - Hungarian, Czech
papirja - Slovenian
papīrs - Latvian
papper - Swedish
pappír - Icelandic
papur - Welsch
popierius - Lithuanian

But in various Frisian texts, from before and after publication of the OLB, varieties with an "M" were used:

pompier: 1807, 1821, 1834, 1864, 1867, 1874, 1880, 1885, 1889, 1895, 1896 (2x), 1901, 1902, 1913, 1920, 1923, 1935, 1946
pampier: 1816, 1824, 1882
pumpier: 1855, 1871

1807 Nim dizze rijgels oon, nim oon dit lyts pompier. E. NAUTA, rymbrief, (1)
1816 De hudde Wijn dij hie wat proesd / En onder de Pampieren poesd. P.G. DEKETH, pijtter, strofenr. 46
1821 (ca.) Yn schier pompier berolle. E. HALB, freun
1824 Ho earm binne wij oon marcken, omme for-schaette, heegjende in leegjende luwden ... op it pampier mielje to kinnen. R. POSTHUMUS, prieuwcke, XIII
1834 Doe grou pompier: dat spielde er eak al gou wer ôaf. E. HALB, lapekoer III, 402
1855 Set naut dalik ol huet dy în 't sin sciet uppa 't pumpier. H. SYTSTRA, Iduna, 140
1864 De diakens ... founen okkersneins f 4000 oan Russisk pompier în 'e budel. W. DYKSTRA, nysbode, nr. 3, 3
1867 Tsjinwirdich barre de boeren al gau ris pompierkes for hiar bûter, mar destiids faek goudjild. W. DYKSTRA, wever, 20
1871 Ik (jow) jou alles în biwar end jy jowe my up libben end dead der en lîts pumpierke fen în 't bywêsen fen jou wîf end soan. G. COLMJON, Sw., 54
1874 Hy (wier) mei falske pompieren ... wer în 't lând komd. P. BLEEKSMA, F.m.n., 159
1880 Om it noazblieden, as dat al to stjelpich giet, to stuitsjen, moat me grou pompier kôgje ef in string keulsce side om 'e hals dwaen. H.G. v.d. VEEN, wrald, 48
1882 Pieter (is) oan de doar ... in greate rol pampier ûnder de earm. P.J. TROELSTRA, wiersizzery, (6)
1885 Yn forskate hûzen hinget in great pompier efter in glês mei in swarte list er om hinne ... op dat pompier stiet ... in forklearringe. M.P. TROELSTRA, Sw., 59
1889 Bûrman naem syn boekje op, der der in pompierke út krige hie, in Russiske coupon. J.D. BAARDA, forsin, 47
1895 De Eastenrykse pompieren, dy mochten wy wol fen 'e hân dwaen en keapje er wer Spaenske foar. T.W. SYTSTRA, F.m.n., 152
1896 It rint yn 'e pompieren. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 388
1896 Dy faem is op skien pompier -  'heeft geen vrijer aan de hand'. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 311
1901 For in tachtich goune silverjild (hie) (er) tsjin pompier wiksele. T.G. v.d. MEULEN, Sw., 94
1902 In oaren-ien, oars ek wol yn steat om moai dúdlik syn tinzen op 't pompier to bringen, skreau djarp for doarp. J. f.'e GAESTMAR, F.m.n., 187
1913 Ik hab jimme gâns to skriuwen, mar ik hab soks net wollen mei pompier en inket. E.B. FOLKERTSMA, Y.ú.e.t., 72
1920 De bank hoegde dos net safolle munt yn kas to hawwen as der pompier yn omrin wier. P.T. ZWART, Heit., 36
1923 Der wirdt yn dizze wrâld nearne sa folle liichd as op 't pompier. J.P. WIERSMA, arbeiders-jongfolk, 7
1935 Hjir lizze noch wol in pear pompierkes op 't taffeltsje. S. BOUMA, wolken, 6
1946 Men (sit) efter it swarte pompier by in lyts ljochtsje mei it daei om to kliemen. W. KOK, koarstekoeke, 80

Source: http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...3&lemma=pampier

(Note that E. Halbertsma (1821, 1834) spelled: "pompier")

If the OLB story is right it would explain two things:

1) why the Frisian flag is made up of 'pomp'-leaves
2) why the most common old-Frisian spelling of paper was "pompier"

If the OLB was created in the 19th century, its author(s) must have been an etymology fanatic. The etymology of "pompier" seems obvious, yet nothing is said about it in the OLB, and the only time the word for paper is used, it is spelled as "pampíer", while "pompier" would be more pure.

I think this could be an important clue.

Edited by Otharus, 17 December 2011 - 06:11 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, you are suggesting that, because the Fryans/Frisians used these water-lily leaves to make paper, they mixed or confused two words: paper & pomp(eblêden)?

Not saying it is wrong or right, but I found a lot of alternative Dutch names voor de "gele plomp" (standard Dutch) or yellow water lily:

Gele pompelbloem, Pompelbladen, Pomper, Pomperwortel, Pompeblêden, Grote dompel, Dompelbladen, Dompels
http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/kruik

Something nice (and I wonder where this person came from):

Me and my friends have a project in science. We need to make recycled paper from the pulp of the Water Lily leaves. (:
How do you get the pulp of the leaves and how to make it into recycled paper? Any sites to help?

http://answers.yahoo...27030240AA4wiLn


Btw: do you have any idea what these "waak-sterren" or OLB "wak-stara" (watchstars) really are??

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 December 2011 - 07:08 PM.

[Knul]

Wrong again Otharus. Pampier is a 19th century word formation. This word formation is called epenthese. Epenthese. Invoeging van een klank in een woord, bijv. een m in pampier en een r in karbies, een d in duurder.

papier
Accent: pa'pier
Woordsoort: znw. o.
Modern-Nederlandse lemmavorm: papier
Uitspraak: pəpi.ər
Datering: 1809→
Varianten: pompier, Accent: pom'pier, (verouderend) Uitspraak: pompi.ər, Datering: 1807→
pampier, Accent: pam'pier, Uitspraak: pampi.ər, Datering: 1816-1903, Flexie: Plur.  pampieren (-p.iərən), (-pjIrən); Dim.  pampierke (-pjIrkə), (-pi.ərkə).
Dialect: Schiermonnikoogs, Hindeloopens pəpi.ər.
Etymologie: Nederlands papier, Duits Papier, Frans papier, Latijn papyrus.
+Papier.

In the OLB and in Klaas Kolyn the Frisian flag is brown.

s. http://www.wnt.inl.n...db=WFT&id=74583
http://www.dbnl.org/...401_01_0042.php (discussion of insert of nasal in foreign words)
http://www.etymologi...refwoord/papier
http://nl.wikipedia....g_van_Friesland (history of de Frisian flag)
↪Spreekwoorden:

Samenstellingen: aluminium-, asfaltpapier, autopapieren, bangmakkers-, bank-, behang-, belêstingpapier, blêdpapierke, brieve-, buordpapier, famyljepapieren, fet-, filtrear-, floei-, flues-, folio-, glâns-, goud-, hân-, húske-, yllustraasjedruk-, ynsjit-, kalkear-, karbon-, karton-, kast-, klad-, kleaster-, kletter-, kloset-, krantepapier, lânspapieren, migge-, millimeter-, munt-, nijs-, normaalpapier, oertrekpapierke, ôfdruk-, omslach-, oranje-, pak-, patroan-, perkamintpapier, pletboerd-, pokkepapierke, post-, pûdsje-, ribbeltsje-, ribke-, ritsel-, selluloaze-, syd-, side-, sierpapier, sigarettepapierke, sits-, skyt-, skuor-, skriuwpapier, steatspapieren, strie-, sulver-, tabaks-, teken-, toilet-, trochslachpapier, tsjerkepapieren, ulefelpapierke, weardepapier.

Edited by Knul, 17 December 2011 - 08:13 PM.

[Abramelin]

Say Menno, do you happen to know what those "waak-sterren"/watchstars are?

++++
EDIT:

Wait a minute: pampier/papier (paper)... vampier/vapir/upir (vampire). Maybe Frisians love to add an -M- between an -A- and a -P- ??

...

Edited by Abramelin, 17 December 2011 - 08:17 PM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 17 December 2011 - 08:09 PM, said:

Maybe it would be a great idea to edit your post, Menno: your post now occupies almost an entire page with most of it being empty.

Next time don't press the [ENTER] button till it breaks, lol (with red eyes and red face, "RAAAHHHH!!! , hahaha!).

Say, do you happen to know what those "waak-sterren"/watchstars are?

++++
EDIT:

Wait a minute: pampier/papier (paper)... vampier/vapir/upir (vampire). Maybe Frisians love to add an -M- between an -A- and a -P- ??

...

I have re-edited my post. Something went wrong.

With respect to waakster I wonder, if this is a word play waak/ster (female watcher) --- waak-ster (starwatch), two different words, which are written the same, in which case it has nothing to do with astronomy. Maybe you could link it to Klaas Vaak (litt. Klaas Waak). The English a star is born has a similar disambiguity: person or star.

Nice coincidence pampier - vampier. Do you realize, that the word PAMPERS contains the same m ? Those formations make me think of Swiebertje, who often produced them. The same did/does Andre van Duin.

Can you put a prtscrn of the Hindelooper Almanak p. 195 here ?

Edited by Knul, 17 December 2011 - 08:37 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 17 December 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

I have re-edited my post. Something went wrong.

With respect to waakster I wonder, if this is a word play waak/ster (female watcher) --- waak-ster (starwatch), two different words, which are written the same, in which case it has nothing to do with astronomy. Maybe you could link it to Klaas Vaak (litt. Klaas Waak). The English a star is born has a similar disambiguity: person or star.

Nice coincidence pampier - vampier. Do you realize, that the word PAMPERS contains the same m ? Those word formations make me think of Swiebertje, who often produced such word formations. The same did Andre van Duin.

I edited my post too after I saw you did yours.

=

These earth mothers, two of them (Frya and Finda), ascended or ended up at their "wâkstaer" /"waak-ster" (watchstar). You think the creators of the OLB suggested these earth mothers and maidens had lesbian relationships?

The only reference to the English "watchstar" I could find is a science fiction book about some comet (Pamela Sargent/1980: "Watchstar").

=

Pamper is made of paper-fibers (well, for some time it was). But 'to pamper' has quite a different meaning. And these 'pampers' didn't come into use during the 19th century.

In English they were called 'diapers' before that.


=

To me it looks there are many hints at 'astrology'.

Why the hell were they looking at the skies on top of those hexagonal towers in the middle of their citadels?

Just admiring the moon and being all romantic about it?

Btw: you said Halbertsma was interested in astronomy, not astrology.

But then I have something for you.

Wait a minute.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 December 2011 - 08:54 PM.