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Minoan civilization was made in Europe


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#1    docyabut2

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:37 PM

DNA casts doubt on Egyptian origin for ancient Cretans.


http://www.nature.co...-europe-1.12990


#2    jules99

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:16 PM

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=247940


#3    shrooma

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 12:32 AM

y'know, I don't know what all the big fuss is about the minoans to be honest?
I mean, the aborigines reached australia by boat 60,000yrs ago, which is about 40,000yrs before anyone else got past the 'drowning in a hollow log' stage, and you don't hear them bragging do you?!

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#4    Kowalski

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 01:04 AM

 docyabut2, on 17 May 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

DNA casts doubt on Egyptian origin for ancient Cretans.


http://www.nature.co...-europe-1.12990

I posted this story in this thread:


 jules99, on 17 May 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:


I hope that's okay. Would love to hear your opinion on this. I find this whole subject interesting to say the least.


#5    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 02:33 AM

I'd believe it. I was a little more specific in my own thread titled Trojans were Basques - http://www.unexplain...topic=222099

But generally, it was the continuation of many Minoan things from Portugal that led me to this.

Not to mention the OLB telling us Minos was Fryan, but that's for that thread.

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#6    kmt_sesh

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 02:37 AM

I believe it was Sir Arthur Evans, "discoverer" of Minoa, who formulated the idea that the Minoans were descended from ancient Egyptians. This theory has not been regarded as realistic for many years now. Skeletal remains of Minoans might yield DNA that bears certain similarities to ancient Europeans, but it's my understanding that the brunt of evidence places the Minoans' origins in Anatolia.

The skeletons used in the analysis, according to the article, date at oldest to around 4,900 years BP. That is a hell of a long time ago, but it's more than likely Crete and other islands of the Aegean were settled by westward-migrating Anatolians long before that. More germane to the question would be an analysis of the DNA of skeletal remains dating much farther back into prehistory.

It's not my intent to belittle Evans. He was one of the greatest archaeologists of his time. He did tremendous work. Evans almost single-handedly brought the ancient Minoan civilization to the modern world.  However, Evans went to his grave insisting the Linear B script could not be of a European language, even after Michael Ventris and the talented people who followed him definitively proved that the script represented an archaic version of the Greek language. I'm just curious why the article is partly based on such an outdated theory. Connections with ancient Europe are possible but, as far as I'm aware, unlikely.

The script of the Minoans was Linear A, and it remains undeciphered. Simply not enough source material has survived in the archaeological record for linguists to achieve success, and many have tried damn hard to do so. Unlike Linear B, however, Linear A appears to have no similarities with any known European language, and is unlikely to have been part of the Indo-European family. In all likelihood the Minoans spoke some dialect of the parent language originally brought from Anatolia in prehistory, and I don't believe Indo-European languages yet existed in Anatolia that far back in time. The language spoken by the Minoans remains one of history's great unsolved mysteries—we don't even know what the Minoans called themselves.

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#7    The_Spartan

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 04:30 PM

 The Puzzler, on 18 May 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:


Not to mention the OLB telling us Minos was Fryan, but that's for that thread.

OLB tells that everyone was Frisian/Fryan. Doesnt it??

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#8    jaylemurph

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

 The_Spartan, on 18 May 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

OLB tells that everyone was Frisian/Fryan. Doesnt it??

I'm sure somewhere in history there might have been somebody insiginificant enough not to be Frisian according to the OLB. You know, Toothless Jim, the idiot boy who picked up scraps for Atilla or Dancing Frigg, the fourth-worst prostitute following Julius Caesar's army. There's a slim chance /they/ weren't Frisians.

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#9    questionmark

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:54 PM

last I looked Crete was still in Europe, so why is this news?

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#10    Abramelin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:56 PM

 questionmark, on 18 May 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

last I looked Crete was still in Europe, so why is this news?

Because some linguists/historians thought these Cretans came from Libya or Egypt.


#11    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:09 PM

Im little surprise on conclusions made by article. Not saying its not true since I already said many times that fall of Hittites cause fall of Minoans. Suggesting that they were tight connected with Hittites. So my conclusions was that they came from Anatolia. (Mostly, see rest of the post.)

But...how did they know that Minoans originate from Europe. Im mean we dont know how many population live on those Islands.
Also last time I checked Minoans were MULTI ETHNIC society.  I think that tells all about this article.

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#12    Abramelin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:33 PM

 Abramelin, on 11 October 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

A bit more about a relation between ancient Crete and ancient Anatolia:


DNA sheds light on Minoans

Crete’s fabled Minoan civilization was built by people from Anatolia, according to a new study by Greek and foreign scientists that disputes an earlier theory that said the Minoans’ forefathers had come from Africa.

The new study – a collaboration by experts in Greece, the USA, Canada, Russia and Turkey – drew its conclusions from the DNA analysis of 193 men from Crete and another 171 from former neolithic colonies in central and northern Greece.

The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.

The DNA analysis indicates that the arrival of neolithic man in Greece from Anatolia coincided with the social and cultural upsurge that led to the birth of the Minoan civilization, Constantinos Triantafyllidis of Thessaloniki’s Aristotle University told Kathimerini.

“Until now we only had the archaeological evidence – now we have genetic data too and we can date the DNA,” he said.

Archeological dates for the colonisation of Crete are about 7,000 BC.

In more detail...

(...)

They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia. Specifically, the researchers connected the source population of ancient Crete to well known Neolithic sites of ancient Anatolia: Asıklı Höyük, Çatalhöyük, Hacılar, Mersin/Yumuktepe, and Tarsus. Haplogroup J2b-M12 (Crete: 3.1%; Greece: 5.9%) was associated with Neolithic Greece. Haplogroups J2a1h-M319 (8.8%) and J2a1b1-M92 (2.6%) were associated with the Minoan culture linked to a late Neolithic/ Early Bronze Age migration to Crete ca. 3100 BCE from North-Western/Western Anatolia and Syro-Palestine (ancient Canaan, Levant, and pre-Akkadian Anatolia); Aegean prehistorians link the date 3100 BCE to the origins of the Minoan culture on Crete.


http://mathildasanth...ns-dna-and-all/
http://onlinelibrary....20857/abstract



#13    Abramelin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:05 PM

 the L, on 18 May 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Im little surprise on conclusions made by article. Not saying its not true since I already said many times that fall of Hittites cause fall of Minoans. Suggesting that they were tight connected with Hittites. So my conclusions was that they came from Anatolia. (Mostly, see rest of the post.)

But...how did they know that Minoans originate from Europe. Im mean we dont know how many population live on those Islands.
Also last time I checked Minoans were MULTI ETHNIC society.  I think that tells all about this article.

The Minoans originated from Anatolia, which is not Europe ( - only in the European Song Contest, lol - ).

From my former post:

The results show that the country’s neolithic population came to Greece by sea from Anatolia – modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria – and not from Africa as maintained by US scholar Martin Bernal.

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Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2013 - 09:11 PM.


#14    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:22 PM

Yes Abramelin I agree, but people from Anatolia ,according to Anatolia hypothesis of Indo Europeans, populated Europe before emerging of Minoans.
Europeans are Anatolians. :wacko:

@all

Evans dug Crete with damiging speed. Who knows how many things we have lost. When he dug Crete was under Ottomans. Not crucial info but small interesting info I like.
I always liked information in schooldays when in books is written "its good to know". No one will ask you that but somehow its good to understand it.

edit: Minoans were multi etnhic. Meaning some could carried one genes others different origin then first one. Isnt?

Edited by the L, 18 May 2013 - 09:28 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#15    Abramelin

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 09:31 PM

 the L, on 18 May 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

Yes Abramelin I agree, but people from Anatolia ,according to Anatolia hypothesis of Indo Europeans, populated Europe before emerging of Minoans.
Europeans are Anatolians. :wacko:

@all

Evans dug Crete with damiging speed. Who knows how many things we have lost. When he dug Crete was under Ottomans. Not crucial info but small interesting info I like.
I always liked information in schooldays when in books is written "its good to know". No one will ask you that but somehow its good to understand it.

Many Europeans may have descended from Anatolians, but that does not make them Anatolians. There were also the Scythians from the Russian steppes.

And don't forget about the ancestors of the Basques (= NOT the Basques themselves), maybe related to the ancient Berbers.

So you have 3 possible ancestors of the Europeans: Anatolians, ancient Berbers (North Africans), and Scythians.

But like 11,000 years ago there was a land where another branch of the ancestors of the Europeans thrived, and that was Doggerland (Maglemosian culture).

That was long before any Anatolians showed up in Europe.

That land was flushed by a giant flood 6150 BCE, and whoever was able to survive, fled to the surrounding countries.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 May 2013 - 09:47 PM.





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