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Why Do Great Nations Fall?


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#16    Bildr

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:58 PM

Because, humans try to fix a ultimate goal, and by trying maintain Status Quo, decays. Movement, change is he path for survival, since it is the definition of evolution.


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Who created environment, the social structure, the economic, the religious structure? We. Each one has contributed individually, until it has become collective, and the individual who has helped to create the collective, now is lost in the collective, for it has become his mould, his environment. Through the desire for security, financial, moral and spiritual, you have created a capitalistic environment in which there is nationality, class distinction and exploitation. We have created it, you and I. This thing hasn't miraculously come into being. You will again create another capitalistic, acquisitive system of a different kind, with a different nuance, with a different colour, so long as you are seeking security. You may abolish this present pattern, but so long as there is possessiveness, you will create another capitalistic state, with a new phraseology, a new jargon[...]


[...]So individually we must become conscious. I assure you, you will then individually create something immense, not a society which is merely holding to an ideal and therefore decaying, but a society that is constantly in movement, not coming to a culmination and dying. Individuals establish a goal, strive after its attainment, and after attaining, collapse. They try all the time to reach some goal and stay at that stage which they have attained. As the individual so the state - the state is trying all the time to reach an ideal, a goal. Whereas to me the individual must be in constant movement, must ever be becoming, not seeking a culmination, not pursuing a goal. Then self-expression, which is society, will be ever in constant movement.  -Jiddu Krishnamurti
Source: http://www.jiddu-kri...right-action-10

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#17    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:28 PM

Usualy combination of factors. But most common two are climate drought or social alienation. 2nd is most important.

Edited by the L, 16 August 2012 - 03:28 PM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#18    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostEldorado, on 16 August 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Complacency and greed.

In my opinion.

*smiles at post count looking more impressive*
Add to that "too many wars or not enough wars".

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#19    spud the mackem

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:46 PM

The first 3 mentioned were Dictatorships,and had to go when the top man either died or lost his power to control. Britain went down the pan due to lack of finances after 2 crippling World Wars,which we never started.Japan lost its power through the greed of expansion,and were defeated.America hasn't really got an Empire as such,maybe a few Pacific Islands and so has nothing to lose,and will survive for the forseeable future, in my humble opinion.

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(2) try your second best, ........if that dont work
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#20    cladking

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:26 PM

View PostLucidElement, on 16 August 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Hey Everyone, its been a while since I've been on this sight, I guess one of the biggest reason's I have not been is because people just say things to get there post count up, uneducated things and/or what not. Trust me, Ive been a member of this sight since about 90% of you. =) ... But anyway (i still respect the community of U.M, and I appreciate what Saruman has put together), I had a great conversation with a friend of mine tonight. One thing lead to another (literally) and before we knew it, we were talking about why the greatest nation's have fallen, (ex; Egypt, Rome, Constantinople, Etc) His explantion, summarized, came down to a simple word, "Communication." These countries have fallen because of the lack of communication...

Now, if you look at the U.S.A, as scary as it might be, many people do not understand what is happening outside the box. There are people that are educated, book smart, read up, follow what is happening in this country... then there are those other people who do not care what is going on, do not follow what is happening or just leave it up to others to fix the problems.... Right there proves the point in which as a whole the country of the U.S.A is not communicating.. There was many more things said and backed up with facts, but as a generality, I thought I would say this and see what you all think. Are we at risk of truly falling? let's try and leave the politcs out of it please if at all possible. Because, that right there can always trigger another topic. Take this question at face value.. If you can stray away from political conversation then by all means please back it up with data. Im looking very forward to reading up on this.

In almost all cases of failure of cultures it's for the exact same reason; the inability
to change and a blind adherence to the status quo.  Humans are animals and cul-
ture is the way we are organized to exploit the niche in which we find ourselves.  It
is always static and grows and changes through accretion and layers of new regu-
lation and bandages to repair deep wounds.  People are too resistant to change to
ever effect anything meaningful in adapting to a changing enviroment.  When some-
thing begins to fail like education or the health system we simply add additional lay-
ers of the nonsense that caused it to fail in the first place.  We plaster over fatal
wounds and hope they'll go away because in the final analysis almost all humans
through all of history would rather die than change.

Edited by cladking, 16 August 2012 - 11:28 PM.

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#21    Ashotep

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:56 PM

Economic conditions are a big factor I think in countries failing along with people feeling suppressed.


#22    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:13 AM

There are many different reasons why nations fall (great or small)...

Yet there is only one thing they would need to do to flourish and prosper and be a whole lot happier....

Is simply Live and let Live

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#23    Supersquatch

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:26 AM

The Roman Empire fell after being viciously attacked by "barbarians" from across Europe and Asia, including the notable Attila and the Huns. The large size of the empire was also hard to control, which led to its downfall.

Ancient Egypt was conquered by the Roman Empire by Octavian in 30 B.C.E. in the Battle of Actium. After the fall of the Roman Empire, it was conquered by the Islamic Empire--led by Amr Ibn Al-Aas.

The Persian Empire was conquered by Alexander the Great in multiple battles, whom helped Greece.

In the case of the Ottoman Empire, the introduction of increased cultural rights, civil liberties and a parliamentary system during the Tanzimat proved too late to reverse the nationalistic and secessionist trends that had already been set in motion since the early 19th century. http://en.wikipedia....l_of_the_Empire

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#24    Habitat

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:44 AM

View PostJackofalltrades, on 17 August 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

There are many different reasons why nations fall (great or small)...

Yet there is only one thing they would need to do to flourish and prosper and be a whole lot happier....

Is simply Live and let Live
Trouble with that idea is that every nation has to "play the game".


#25    LucidElement

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:10 AM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 16 August 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

In his book Collapse, Jared Diamond lists several factos main factors: three of them are to do with failure to adapt to environmental issues, and two about neighbouring societies - either a hostile one or the collapse of a supporting one.

The environmental one is pretty clear. Essentially, over-use of resources has caused more major societies to collapse than any other factor.
I am going to read Collapse. I've head good thing about it. So you believe that environmental issues is a major cause? What about lack of communication and individuals starting to branch off and do what they want, and not work together??

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#26    LucidElement

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:18 AM

So many of you think it has to do with Social Order and not lack of communication amongst individuals, primarily not having everyone work together to build a stronger empire, government, etc. For example, when hurricane katrina struk New Orelans, many people went crazy and started looting houses, killings happend everyone seemed to be against each other instead of working together to fix the greater problem. On the other hand, when the hurricane hit japan, they interviewed a couple of Japanese, and they said "why would anyone want to harm each other and not work together, when in deed the population of Japan is working together to fix the solution" Right there shows a powerful communication and understanding. I feel like the USA is splitting and lack of communication is is destroying the "UNITED" title of our great country. Greed I agree with, that definetly posses a problem, but I am still eager to see if any of you think communication is an issue?

"The Truth Is Out There, Its Up To Us To Find The Answers."

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#27    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:11 AM

View PostHabitat, on 17 August 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

Trouble with that idea is that every nation has to "play the game".

I agree every Nation has to play the game... But if they all did then there would be no need for wars or any famine or anything else that goes on in this day and age, due to the fact that everyone would have what they needed (food water etc) and would also be a lot happier if they all only worked together or at least lived and let live...




View PostLucidElement, on 17 August 2012 - 06:18 AM, said:

I feel like the USA is splitting and lack of communication is is destroying the "UNITED" title of our great country. Greed I agree with, that definetly posses a problem, but I am still eager to see if any of you think communication is an issue?

Its NOT just like that in the USA it's also seems like that in the UK...

Communication (or lack of it) definitely has a BIG part of it, so does Greed and a whole lot of other things...

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#28    The Gremlin

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:36 PM

"why do great nations fall?"

Thats the whole point behind the Atlantis story isnt it?

plato was addressing a question that was nagging his fellow Athenians....

The conclusion is the same for him as that given by Thucydides.......Democracy....

Puting power into the hands of the merchant classes and tradesmen who were not best suited for rule....greedy for profit, and rapine empire.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
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You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#29    Antilles

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:36 PM

Well man, since it's been a long time since you've been on this 'sight', maybe you could read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire'. Give you some tips.


#30    The Gremlin

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:41 PM

View PostAntilles, on 17 August 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Well man, since it's been a long time since you've been on this 'sight', maybe you could read "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire'. Give you some tips.

Gibbon?

Doesnt quite broach the socio-economic factors involved in the 'decline', and his point where decline started is often questioned too.....as is his definition of 'decline'.

edit to add: great read though, and valuable resource.

Edited by The Gremlin, 17 August 2012 - 12:42 PM.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter




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