35 replies to this topic

[Parsec]

Hi The L

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Im not familiar with Graham Hancock's theory. I research often on my own so if someone have a interesting theory and if I stumble upon him I read his work nut Mr.Graham is unknown to me. Sorry.

Well, basically he theorizes that once upon a time there was an ancient, unknown and advanced civilization, that spread all around the world and left behind the ruins we see today.
I'm not saying that's not plausible or possible, I'd love if it'd be so, but sometimes he goes too far in his speculations.
If you search here on UM for him, you'll find plenty of infos (and detractors )

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And yes dry walls are used all over Med. and in South America. In Dalmatia, people built very long walls to use them as borders between lands. Some say thats Illyrian custom.
I have plenty pictures of those Suhozid which means Drywall.
You mean that they use gravity as their benefactor? But we seen in Greece pyramid and wall with smaller stones as well...Also so called curved Etruscan tombs have small polygonal stones.

Dry walls is the very first form of building structures. It's not used exclusively with huge stones; of course it's used also with small ones. It depends on the purpose: if you want to build a wall 10 meters high with only stones and no mortar and that must resist and defend your city and family, would you prefer to use small or big ones?
Even today here there're walls build with this technique and small stones, but, as you wrote, they serve as borders between lands, they're quite decorative. We don't have to forget that things usually have a purpose and that, especially in old times, people didn't do things "just because" (like many times we do today), but they had a specific reason.

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It can be that when someone thinks about the idea represented by the swastika, this symbol comes in mind of others. That idea travels.

About Swastika, I was thinking more on Carl Jung's subconscious archetypes.
Well, maybe I'm a bit too extreme and semplicistic, but to me both Jung and Averroes ideas derive from Plato and his Hyperuranium (or World of Ideas).

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So you dont link any people in ancient italy with Troy or minor asia?

I've never wrote such a thing.
We have to separate Troy from Minor Asia. For the moment, I don't link anything historycal with Troy, as far as we can't be sure if it really existed and where it was located. Do you know that there's a theory stating that Iliad and Odissey were located in the Baltic Sea and thus they tell about the period when the old Greeks lived there, before moving south (and I have to say that it's quite covincing)?
I don't exclude that some civilization came from Minor Asia to Italy.
I'm only saying that, as far as research goes on, it seems that Veneti came from central Europe and not from Minor Asia.

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What do you think about Messapic language as Illyrian language? Do you agree that Messapians were Illyrians?

As far as I know Messapians were Illyrians, and viceversa.

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Hey what do you say about cuvred polygonal wall at Norba. For that they need quite a lot time or...

An alien help!
Frankly I don't know what to say at the moment, I didn't study it throughly. Surely it's fascinating and raises many questions.
I don't discard the forgotten advanced civilization theory.

[the L]

Hi Parsec,


First of all Im in rush but I will say that Jung is kind of very interesting person. When he and Freud met first time they talked for 13 hours.
Jung was molested as kid so he was healer who was healed. I know that he talked about indentical psyche in all individuals. And how collective unconciosness is different because personal...I forgot expirence? views? something like that.

If that Graham claims then I will search about him on internet and read it.
Could you develop that about Plato s Hive mind idea? And ofcourse Jung view...

Here is some Jung quotes I love and quote often:

All the works of man have their origin in creative fantasy. What right have we then to depreciate imagination.

Every form of addiction is bad, no matter whether the narcotic be alcohol or morphine or idealism.

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.

Follow that will and that way which experience confirms to be your own.

***I have treated many hundreds of patients. Among those in the second half of life - that is to say, over 35 - there has not been one whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious outlook on life.

In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.

Man's task is to become conscious of the contents that press upward from the unconscious.

Masses are always breeding grounds of psychic epidemics.

***Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.

The debt we owe to the play of imagination is incalculable.

The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed.

***Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.

Where love rules, there is no will to power; and where power predominates, there love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.

***We should not pretend to understand the world only by the intellect. The judgement of the intellect is only part of the truth.

The word "belief" is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for a certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing, and then I know it - I don't need to believe it.


P.S. asap I will upload something about Troy to you and Garry s Etruscan sarcophagi in UK.

Edited by the L, 08 October 2012 - 11:04 PM.

[the L]

Abramelin, on 07 October 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

The -L- , great thread !!

I have nothing to add, and you have sources at hand no one here can read, unless they speak your language.

Well, maybe Helen of Annoy (Croat) can add something?

Maybe we could start a thread in Modern Mysteries Invasion of Croats on UM
If anything I can translate to you...or if I could do anything for you ,please just ask. Im willing to help.
Thanks on support I appreciated it.
Btw I like your new avatar. Its kind a optimistic then previous ones.

Edited by the L, 08 October 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[Ninhursag]

the L, on 07 October 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

Yes Im. I notice that you are too. It was from Mišak Na rubu znanosti with Garry Biltcliffe as guest.
You were probably surprised to see HRT 1 on UM.

Haha yes I was ..

I love the show .. Should be on more often

Edited by Ninhursag, 11 October 2012 - 04:58 PM.

[pbarosso]

this means nothing.

[Parsec]

@Abramelin: thank you for the support

@The L: Hi, I'm in a rush too, so I'll be very quick.
In Plato's words "The hyperuranium is the world beyond heaven that has ever existed, in which the ideas are perfect and unchangeable, approachable only by the intellect, intangible and incorruptible by earthly bodies. The connection among the ideas, thus the structure itself of the hyperuranium, is determined by the laws of  dialectics. They have the power to distinguish or divide, gather or unite."
Basically, his idea is that we live in a material world, that's only the reflection of the real world, the World of Ideas. We come from there, so we already know all the ideas, because we've already seen them. When think about an object or a principle, we're remembering the real Idea, corrupted by the fact that we live in this material world. Well, I'm making more complicated than it is
If I tell you "love", you instantly think about something, even if, for example, you've never been in love and you don't know it. That's because, in truth, you've already seen it, in the World of Ideas.
If I tell you "banana", in your mind a banana appears. That's because in that moment you make a connection, through your intellect, with the real Idea of banana.

His idea is very well depicted in the famous "allegory of the cave" (that's at the base of the Matrix movie idea, by the way), one of my favourite ones.
I link you the wiki page, it will be more clear: http://en.wikipedia....ory_of_the_cave

I must add that in english it's translated more often "world" or "theory" of Forms, rather than Ideas: to me it's misleading, because the Idea is very different from the Form. The first is the real thing, while the latter is its representation.
But probably my English level is not enough to understand these slightnesses

[the L]

Parsec, on 11 October 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

"The hyperuranium is the world beyond heaven that has ever existed, in which the ideas are perfect and unchangeable, approachable only by the intellect, intangible and incorruptible by earthly bodies. The connection among the ideas, thus the structure itself of the hyperuranium, is determined by the laws of  dialectics. They have the power to distinguish or divide, gather or unite."
Basically, his idea is that we live in a material world, that's only the reflection of the real world, the World of Ideas. We come from there, so we already know all the ideas, because we've already seen them. When think about an object or a principle, we're remembering the real Idea, corrupted by the fact that we live in this material world. Well, I'm making more complicated than it is
If I tell you "love", you instantly think about something, even if, for example, you've never been in love and you don't know it. That's because, in truth, you've already seen it, in the World of Ideas.
If I tell you "banana", in your mind a banana appears. That's because in that moment you make a connection, through your intellect, with the real Idea of banana.

His idea is very well depicted in the famous "allegory of the cave" (that's at the base of the Matrix movie idea, by the way), one of my favourite ones.
I link you the wiki page, it will be more clear: http://en.wikipedia....ory_of_the_cave

I will use swastika as example of Plato, Averoess, Jung idea.


As we already said many civilization used Swastika. I wonder is there any connection between polygonal building tech and swastika. We have polygonal walls in Peru, Italy, Japan and we have swastika in those placeses. Ofcourse there are swastika in cultures that dont have polygonal walls.
However I will point out that is amazing number of cultures and civilizations used Swastika.

Swastika according to wiki means:
"su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. The swastika literally means "to be good". Or another translation can be made: "swa" is "higher self", "asti" meaning "being", and "ka" as a suffix, so the translation can be interpreted as "being with higher self".


I wonder could it be that all people on earth connected with higherself and then reach for Swastika symbol? If so where does it came from?
Maybe Jung was right. Its amazing number of people around the world that use same symbol. Oldest dates 10 000 BC in Ukraine on figurine of mammoth ivory. Illyrians seen it as sun. Zoroastrians seen it as Sun. Many civilization used  symbol:

In Iran we have neckless with  three swastikas found in Marlik, Gilan province Iran, dates 1000 BC.Vinča cultures,Greeks, Etruscan, Illyrian, South American tribes, in Indus valley civilization, Caucasus area, neolithic China, Slavic, Celts, in India during Gupta empire , Tibet, Japan (manji name for it ), Medieval Armenia and Bulgaria…in religions such as Jainism, Budhism, Hinduism…we have it in Cyprus…City of Troy…Cannanites used it…Romans,…In Mycenae…Hopi indians, Aztecs…on Malta, on Bali…Minoans used it...List goes on.

[the L]

Ninhursag, on 11 October 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Haha yes I was ..

I love the show .. Should be on more often

Every monday about 23:00 on HRT1.

[Parsec]

Hi The L,

here we are with another chapter of our story

I admit that for the swastika I've checked wiki too (and I didn't think they suggested the Jung's way like I proposed )
I'll try to be short (but exhaustive).

First, you can't connect swastika and Japanese culture: as you and Abe posted, they sure built buildings with huge polygonal blocks, but they did it from the fifteenth century on. Further, the swastika they use is derived from Buddhism, so they use it because they "imported" it with that philosophy.

To me, at the moment there are two main hypothesis for this symbol:
1) as you write, there was an ancient unknown common civilization, that spread around the world and left behind the polygonal walls and the use of the swastika. So, the symbol comes directly from that civilization.
2) We can detect it in the early indo-european culture (or maybe in the Ukranian culture of the ivory swastika, it's the same for this model): through commercial and cultural contacts with other cultures, it spread. So, thanks to Hinduism and Buddhism, it spread in all the East Asia and thanks to the other IE branch that came in Europe, it has been passed to Etruscans and other non IE cultures. Further through the silky way it reached Middle East and Europe (again).

Whatever its origins are, we have to admit that's a powerful symbol, it catches the human mind.
Maybe its origins are simpler that we think: an unknown caveman invented (or reached for a moment the World of Ideas) and showed it to his friends, who liked it, and then they did the same with their friends. Everybody gave it their own meaning (sun, seasons, time, a type of boomerang) and the symbol spread everywhere. It could be.

What leaves me perplexed is that
1) we find it also in some North American cultures, that officially never came in contact with the rest of the world in the last 12.000 years;
2) we don't find any trace of it in two of the three most ancient civilizations of the entire wolrd: the Egyptian and the Sumeric. If there was this unknown, well developed, world spread civilization, how is it possible that they didn't come in touch with it?

Maybe we should open a specific thread on the swastika (or maybe there's already one?)?

[the L]

Parsec sorry for late response!
No need for Swastika thread. It fits here since we discuss about field of ideas from where people milk ideas. Fine example of it natives in America and swastika.

Yes it is interesting that we didnt find swastika in Mesopotamia.
Egypt is kind of isolated due Sinai desert. Egyptians ruled Africa and only one way to came into they land. They guared it for 1500 years before first conquerers appears.
We find other similarites in America and Euroasia and africa.

L stones. T cuts. Tubes on stones, Mummies. Pyramids...

[Parsec]

Hi The L,

it's been a while since my last post.
(By the way, is this basically a two-people thread? I'd like to read someone else's ideas )

I wouldn't put too many things in the pot: I don't want to use too much the Jung's subconscious archetypes hypothesis either, but for instance pyramids are a common figure, that comes to mind when willing to represent an ascension towards the heavens, so I wouldn't ascribe the many different types of pyramids around the world with a common culture (without considering that they are separated from thousands of years). It's more probable that it's a common solution that came in mind to different cultures. We also have to considerate that they're very different in building techniques: ziggurats from Egyptian pyramids, from Mayans, from North American mounds.
If they'd have been built in the same time with the same technique, that would be very different.

Same for mummies: apart from Egyptian mummies, the others found around the world are usually more natural, than "man-made". Maybe they've been made deribelately, but using natural processes, rather than artificial, like the Egyptian one. Only the Chinese (if I'm not wrong) are similar, but I wouldn't say that they have much in common with Egypt.

Further, Egypt has been in touch for millennia with Mesopotamia, through sea commerce and ground commerce.
If an old, advanced and unknown culture existed, why didn't they have contact with the two only other civilizations available at that times?
If we have to suppose that they travelled the whole world, it doesn't make very sense.

On the other hand, I can't explain North American swastika if not with commercial exchanges with another culture.
So, why did they share their culture with Natives and not with Egyptians and Sumerians?
Were they at war? Were enemies or competitors?
Maybe the world at that time was divided in blocks, like our Cold War era?
And if so, why don't we have any evidence in Egyptian or Sumerian scripts? Damnatio memoriae?
Or maybe because this culture was older than those, and they had a bad relationship with Egyptian ancestors, who didn't leave writings?

So (drum beats), maybe can we find a trace in Plato's writings? Is his timing not so wrong (9.600 b.C.) after all, and maybe the ancient Athene was indeed the ancient Egypt, and he changed it in order to adapt for a Greek public?
I leave it to you. It's just an idea, don't eat me for that

[the L]

Parsec,

No problem. Im patient. Why we need more? For Tango we need only two. Ofcourse more is better but...so far so good.
As Im aware Incas did mummified their dead. Chinese two. Also not sure about Mesoamerica culture and North america. Im researching about their culture but its kind of hard since I have job,fam and others open threads.
Swastika on whole continent is kind of mystery.
Same as Dragons/Flying serpent.
Who do you think it was on each side of ancient cold war?

[the L]

See my last two posts here:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=234492

[Parsec]

Well the L,

I'm glad we're good dancers

Before reading any further, consider that I'm quite tired today, so I could write complete nonsense.

About the mummies, as far as I remember, it's true that Incas mummified some deads, but they did it using their natural enviroment. They probably were ritual sacrifices, that were mummified using the cold temperatures. The result is like Oetzi (but he has been mummified by accident only because he died there).
Some mummies have been found also at the Nazca site, and for those they used the dry enviroment to transform the bodies; anyway this is quite different from the Egyptian techniques. That's my point of view, but I see a difference between using the natural tools/enviroment and the complicated and refined techniques used by Egyptians. I see a difference in the meaning of the gestures and in their purposes.

I read your posts in the other thread, and the whole thread too, and it's quite interesting.
I don't know if the serpent could be associated with the flying serpent and this with the dragon, but reading the first post, an idea came in my mind: what if the Puzzler is right, and Athena originated in Western Africa?
Now, let's hypothezise that the Atlantis myth has a real base.
If it's so, it could mean that the battle between Poseidon and Athena, and so between Atlantis and Athene, wasn't fought by "our" Athene, but from another city/country with the same, translated, name (it's a common use to rename a city or a place with the names of the places of origin) located on the costs of Western Africa, and very far in the past.
This could explain also the dating problem, since Plato wrote tha the war took place around 9.600 BC.

But maybe it's a wrong hypothesis, since it clashes with what we've talked about in our other posts, and with your hypothesis.
And we don't even know if there's something real in Atlantis.

So, let's summarize:

1) we find some very ancient sites spread around the world built with huge stones and with the dry wall techinque. For many of them, we don't know who built them. They could be connected and built by the same culture, or it could be a building techincal solution common to different and unrelated cultures;
2) we also find, related to many of the big stones sites, the swastika symbol. We even find it in cultures that, as far as official history knows, shouldn't be connected. Anyway, we don't find it in Egypt and in Mesopotamia;
3) we find in many cultures spread around the world the flying/winged serpent/dragon. It can be related to a common culture, or it can be, like Jung's subconscious archetypes, simply an innate symbol in humankind.

First, we have to understand if we can link the serpent with the winged serpent: they're different symbols, and thus represent different ideas. They both represent the deity and are both positive, but I'd leave them nonetheless separated. If we want to discuss deeper this topic, let me know.
It's more probable that we can connect the flying serpent with the dragon, since they're only different names to call the same symbol.


I'm sorry, but I'm falling asleep over my keyboard. Because of my job I'm waking up very early in these days. I'll continue tomorrow, maybe I'll write less nonsense!

[Parsec]

Hi The L,

you did a very good detective job!

About the Samarra bowl, we have to pay attention that the swastika is a reconstruction: I'm not saying it's not genuine, but only that we have to weight it and understand how much we can trust it.

About snakes: I meant that there's a deep difference between the serpent and the flying serpent: the first one represents the Earth, while the other represents the Air. So, one is for the things below, the other for things above. None of them is per se negative, but they represent different ideas.
So, I wasn't talking about the difference between snakes with and without wings, but between snakes that fly and snakes that don't. I didn't explain me very well.
I agree with you that there's not much difference among flying serpents (with/without wings/dragons).

I admit that I didn't know Schauberger, but I've read his page on wikipedia, a very interesting person.