69 replies to this topic

[TheDarkEnergy]

The whole process of formation of life and religion can be described in the below steps:

How Life formed in earth

1. In the earlier days of solar system, earth had the optimal distance from the sun to support the temparature needed to support life billions of years later.
2. As earth cooled down, the surface got rigid and atmosphere formed with hot gasses which was hold tightly to the planet by gravity.
3. Solar activity and volcanism caused disturbances in the dense atmosphere and crust of early earth as a result frequent electrical storms and heat combined elementary gasses and metals to form compund gasses and other minerals needed to support life.
4. The comets from outer space bombarded the early earth with ice which was melted to water by hot surface temparature and thus oceans formed.
5. The oceans could hold their water content unlike any other planet due to the optimum surface temparature and thick atmosphere.
6. the ocean water allowed minerals to dissolve and mix with each other and form complex compounds.
7. millions of years later complex inorganic componds bonded with each other in a earth full with volcanic and electrical activity and formed elementary organic compunds.
8. Billions of years later more chemical reactions created the simple organic compounds to bond together to create amino acids, the building block of life.
9. From the amino acids, simple one cell organisms formed years after, the first chemical object which can be considered as 'Alive'.
10. After this eventually evolution created more complex life form, and after millions of years later, created us, the humans from apes.

How religions formed in earth

11. In the earlier days humans were scared of natural disasters like thunderstorms, earthquakes and foreast fire. they started to believe that those events are created by some invisible supreme being whom they can not see.
12. Wild animals used to hunt people by night and during daytime the animals used to hide in the forest. and thats why sun was considered to be a watchful protector.
13. When humans learned to use fire as a protection, they believed that it's a part of the sun god which protects them, because both causes heat and light. thats how worshipping the gods began.
14. When thunderstorms, solar eclipses and earthqulakes used to happen, people used to cry out for help to the invisible gods, and naturally after some time the storms/quakes used to stop obviously. people believed that the gods are responding to their prayers.
15. When worshipping became an integral part of human life, it became necessary to teach the young children to worship the gods. thats why myths and legends about the gods began.
16. since no two person thinks alike, gradually the myths started to differ from each other and every myth got their own gods and their own stories. thats how different religions formed.
17. As ages passed by, the myths and legends found their places in written texts, over the years imaginative human minds, blind faith and fear of god allowed the glory of the so called gods to find its place into deep roots of human minds.

So my question to theists are, if all the religions were started by humans, then why do you believe in gods? do you believe in the below points?.

1. You find "God created life and universe" theory more acceptable than evolution and scientific theories about creation of universe which has been experimentally proven.

2. You have experienced miracles in life which forces you to believe that God exists. When a bus collides with a wall, only 3 things can possibly happen. [A] you are safe. [B] you get injured [C] you die.

the problem is when you are safe you think god saved you, when you get injured you think god saved you from death, only when you die, you realize the truth that god is not there. but again you are dead already hence you are unable to get the truth.

Edited by TheDarkEnergy, 30 September 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[and then]

TheDarkEnergy, on 30 September 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

The whole process of formation of life and religion can be described in the below steps:

How Life formed in earth

1. In the earlier days of solar system, earth had the optimal distance from the sun to support the temparature needed to support life billions of years later.
2. As earth cooled down, the surface got rigid and atmosphere formed with hot gasses which was hold tightly to the planet by gravity.
3. Solar activity and volcanism caused disturbances in the dense atmosphere and crust of early earth as a result frequent electrical storms and heat combined elementary gasses and metals to form compund gasses and other minerals needed to support life.
4. The comets from outer space bombarded the early earth with ice which was melted to water by hot surface temparature and thus oceans formed.
5. The oceans could hold their water content unlike any other planet due to the optimum surface temparature and thick atmosphere.
6. the ocean water allowed minerals to dissolve and mix with each other and form complex compounds.
7. millions of years later complex inorganic componds bonded with each other in a earth full with volcanic and electrical activity and formed elementary organic compunds.
8. Billions of years later more chemical reactions created the simple organic compounds to bond together to create amino acids, the building block of life.
9. From the amino acids, simple one cell organisms formed years after, the first chemical object which can be considered as 'Alive'.
10. After this eventually evolution created more complex life form, and after millions of years later, created us, the humans from apes.

How religions formed in earth

11. In the earlier days humans were scared of natural disasters like thunderstorms, earthquakes and foreast fire. they started to believe that those events are created by some invisible supreme being whom they can not see.
12. Wild animals used to hunt people by night and during daytime the animals used to hide in the forest. and thats why sun was considered to be a watchful protector.
13. When humans learned to use fire as a protection, they believed that it's a part of the sun god which protects them, because both causes heat and light. thats how worshipping the gods began.
14. When thunderstorms, solar eclipses and earthqulakes used to happen, people used to cry out for help to the invisible gods, and naturally after some time the storms/quakes used to stop obviously. people believed that the gods are responding to their prayers.
15. When worshipping became an integral part of human life, it became necessary to teach the young children to worship the gods. thats why myths and legends about the gods began.
16. since no two person thinks alike, gradually the myths started to differ from each other and every myth got their own gods and their own stories. thats how different religions formed.
17. As ages passed by, the myths and legends found their places in written texts, over the years imaginative human minds, blind faith and fear of god allowed the glory of the so called gods to find its place into deep roots of human minds.

So my question to theists are, if all the religions were started by humans, then why do you believe in gods? do you believe in the below points?.

1. You find "God created life and universe" theory more acceptable than evolution and scientific theories about creation of universe which has been experimentally proven.

2. You have experienced miracles in life which forces you to believe that God exists. When a bus collides with a wall, only 3 things can possibly happen. [A] you are safe. [B] you get injured [C] you die.

the problem is when you are safe you think god saved you, when you get injured you think god saved you from death, only when you die, you realize the truth that god is not there. but again you are dead already hence you are unable to get the truth.

The one universal truth is that no one knows.  Everyone finds what comfort they can in their own minds and this is all that really matters.  I've seen discussions on this here that have gone page after endless page and it always amounts to the same truth.  We live, we die and no one's talking from the "other side".  Every religion says it has the answers but as far as I know only one can be proven through it's predictive writings.  But only those willing to submit to the constraints of that religion are willing to admit these prophecies are true.  Everyone else finds some flaw that releases them from any dissonance about belief.  To believe means to be responsible to something other than the god of self and THAT is something most here on this globe can never do.  Abraham believed God - and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

[notoverrated]

and then, on 30 September 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

The one universal truth is that no one knows.  Everyone finds what comfort they can in their own minds and this is all that really matters.  I've seen discussions on this here that have gone page after endless page and it always amounts to the same truth.  We live, we die and no one's talking from the "other side".  Every religion says it has the answers but as far as I know only one can be proven through it's predictive writings.  But only those willing to submit to the constraints of that religion are willing to admit these prophecies are true.  Everyone else finds some flaw that releases them from any dissonance about belief.  To believe means to be responsible to something other than the god of self and THAT is something most here on this globe can never do.  Abraham believed God - and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

this this this this this this this and more this.

[Hasina]

I don't think believing in a divine being makes you responsible to something other then the 'god of self'. Believing in a divine being also helps believers displace some of their own guilt. I'm an atheist but I look out for others first, people, animals, the society I live. I dislike the view that just because a person doesn't have a religion it makes them selfish. I am responsible, for my own actions, for others well being, for the laws of the society I live in, etc and so forth. Just because I don't place a magical being in there doesn't mean I'm selfish or 'worship the god of self', if anything, I'm way less concerned about myself then others.

Edited by Hasina, 30 September 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[ShadowOfMothman]

Sounds logical to me. But, there are and will always be things that people are unable to understand or interpret logically and they're not always a bus colliding with a wall...

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

TheDarkEnergy
All that you have written is correct and logical. But when dealing with religion, as you are well aware, is to deal with the irrational disguised as normality. To me it is a matter of what people need to make them feel right with the universe. If I had the power I would never ban religions as it will simply be snatching away a childs comfort blanket. It is also a matter of evolution of our minds. We simply do not, and may never know, the origins of the universe, or if there is indeed a multiverse. We still evolve, nothing to see in our physical bodies of late, but in our minds. The much derided "Дети индиго" (Indigo children) may be a proof of this. Perhaps soon we will grow out of this religious phase of existance, I don't know. Well, perhaps there is no great harm in believing that there are some "gods" for want of a better name, that are between us and the Great Mystery.

[Setton]

TheDarkEnergy, on 30 September 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

The whole process of formation of life and religion can be described in the below steps:

How Life formed in earth

1. In the earlier days of solar system, earth had the optimal distance from the sun to support the temparature needed to support life billions of years later.
2. As earth cooled down, the surface got rigid and atmosphere formed with hot gasses which was hold tightly to the planet by gravity.
3. Solar activity and volcanism caused disturbances in the dense atmosphere and crust of early earth as a result frequent electrical storms and heat combined elementary gasses and metals to form compund gasses and other minerals needed to support life.
4. The comets from outer space bombarded the early earth with ice which was melted to water by hot surface temparature and thus oceans formed.
5. The oceans could hold their water content unlike any other planet due to the optimum surface temparature and thick atmosphere.
6. the ocean water allowed minerals to dissolve and mix with each other and form complex compounds.
7. millions of years later complex inorganic componds bonded with each other in a earth full with volcanic and electrical activity and formed elementary organic compunds.
8. Billions of years later more chemical reactions created the simple organic compounds to bond together to create amino acids, the building block of life.
9. From the amino acids, simple one cell organisms formed years after, the first chemical object which can be considered as 'Alive'.
10. After this eventually evolution created more complex life form, and after millions of years later, created us, the humans from apes.

Leaving aside the fact that points 2-5 are nothing but speculation, the key thing is that this is, as you say, a way the formation of life can be explained. It can also be explained by any number of other things. Sure, some of them have more evidence than others but as ever in debates like this, it comes back to the uncaused cause. What was the very first thing? No-one has ever come up with an answer to that because we simply have no way of knowing.

Quote

So my question to theists are, if all the religions were started by humans, then why do you believe in gods?

Simple. Given personal experiences, it makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard. Nothing that would convince anyone else so I don't try. Belief in Gods is not the same as following a religion. People would do well to remember that.

Quote

do you believe in the below points?.

1. You find "God created life and universe" theory more acceptable than evolution and scientific theories about creation of universe which has been experimentally proven.

Nope. And I would love to see your papers where the creation of the universe has been experimentally proven. i'm sure my lecturers would be equally interested.

Quote

2. You have experienced miracles in life which forces you to believe that God exists. When a bus collides with a wall, only 3 things can possibly happen. [A] you are safe. [B] you get injured [C] you die.

the problem is when you are safe you think god saved you, when you get injured you think god saved you from death, only when you die, you realize the truth that god is not there. but again you are dead already hence you are unable to get the truth.

Again, no. Just fairly mundane things that, nevertheless, only make sense to me through the existence of either many Gods or one with a hell of a split personality. However, I can see from your last sentence that you have already made up your mind. This does leave me wondering why you started this topic...

[Vatic]

The Dark Energy:
9. From the amino acids, simple one cell organisms formed years after, the first chemical object which can be considered as 'Alive'.
10. After this eventually evolution created more complex life form, and after millions of years later, created us, the humans from apes.

Vatic: This is mere assumption.

The first thing I see is that you're assuming an "Earth Centric" origin of life in exclusion to the rest of of all existence. The earth is an infant in the cosmos. Why should there not have been "Star Wars" societies all through out the universe when the earth was just a boiling rock? Life doesn't necessarily have to originate on earth is my point. Nor do I believe that in fact, life originates on earth.

The second thing I see is that you define life as a biological chemical object. That again is an earth centric concept of life. Suppose there might be entities which live in the extremes of interstellar space; what might their form of life be like? Would they have ears? No, there is no air to carry sound. Would they need flippers or flagellum to swim? No, there is no water. In fact what need would they have for biology at all if their natural environment is practically devoid of practically all chemical processes, and consist of mostly energy potentials and partical wave vibrations?  Why shouldn't life be much more exotic than biology from Earth?

Thirdly, your definition of life itself is narrowed to earth centric values by you. But there are values of which life can consist that are independant of Earthly criteria. Here is a list of values that can be used to define and detect life:
1) Synergy
2) Synchronicity
3) Serendipity
4) Sponteneity
5) Symbiosis
Any of these qualities in any combination are useful concepts for the detection and recognition of life, living entities and intelligences. It doesn't matter how sublime or exotic the life form is, or what its origin is, even if it is not earth indigineous. If you were traveling through space, you might need to know these concepts so that you might recognize life, or else you would think you were just alone in all the cosmos like a drifter in the empty sea.

Forthly, what you describe is a relic of the materialist enlightenment era. Instead of thinking life is just evolution, ask yourself why consciousness affects matter? Ask yourself if the human experience isn't just a hologram produced inside our minds? Ask youself if life as we think of it, is indeed just a narrow frequency in the spectrum of reality. We do well to feel the spectrum of heat and light visible to us. That is a microfrequency of life spectrum experience. There might be entities which experience life at frequencies we can't even imagine and they could be all around us and we wouldn't even know it due to the bandwith limits or our biological natures.

In short I find your earth centric view of life and reality as a small and limited relic of a past age that will surely limit your thinking and sense of discovery as long as you don't expand your scope of consideration. But it is on this narrow view of reality you hold, that you propose belief in gods is just superstition.

You should read my book and learn what reality really is not.

Edited by Vatic, 30 September 2012 - 10:41 PM.

[CRIPTIC CHAMELEON]

Hmm I suppose if you were living in an age where the tribe up the road wanted to kill you and the tribe down the road had the same idea and the wild animals and lighting storms and volcanoes added to this I suppose you do need something to believe in like a God or Gods to help you feel a little bit secure so as George Michael's sang you gotta have faith.

Edited by CRIPTIC CHAMELEON, 30 September 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[Royal]

I think that we believe in unseen,unproven deities and philosophies because we simply don't want to accept that this life is all we have to look forward too.

[Vatic]

Royal, on 01 October 2012 - 03:54 AM, said:

I think that we believe in unseen,unproven deities and philosophies because we simply don't want to accept that this life is all we have to look forward too.

Vatic: This assumes nobody has seen. It assumes nobody has had proof. You assume this life is all we have. Such an assumption cannot be a reasonable basis to postulate a psychological basis for belief in God. You can't speak for everyone and think you've made a reasonable statement. Assumptions just don't mean a lot.

[Babe Ruth]

An interesting thread, but no mention at all about the possibility of the intervention or visitation by others.  It does seem quite likely that what we call gods were really ET visitors.

[Alienated Being]

Setton, on 30 September 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

Simple. Given personal experiences, it makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard. Nothing that would convince anyone else so I don't try. Belief in Gods is not the same as following a religion. People would do well to remember that.

Hm, I would be curious as to what you mean by "it makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard". What, exactly, have you heard?

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Babe Ruth, on 01 October 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

An interesting thread, but no mention at all about the possibility of the intervention or visitation by others.  It does seem quite likely that what we call gods were really ET visitors.

I approached this in my post further up.
"Well, perhaps there is no great harm in believing that there are some "gods" for want of a better name, that are between us and the Great Mystery"

Not exactly clearly stated, but it is about there being something "real" on a level, or several, above us that ancient people could only describe by using the word god. I do not believe that there is a creator god as described in bible, but I also do not follow in all aspects the coldness of modern science, the big bang for instance.

[Setton]

Alienated Being, on 01 October 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Hm, I would be curious as to what you mean by "it makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard". What, exactly, have you heard?

As i said, it's based on personal experiences. The only other explanations I've ever heard offered for a personal relationship with a god are 'You're lying' or 'Something muse be wrong with you'. It's a nice fail-safe a certain kind of anti-theist likes to fall back on if they can't find a logical flaw. Basically if everything you say adds up and they can't find a hole, the only logical conclusion in their minds is that you are insane.

Leaving aside personal experiences, as I mentioned before, there is the issue of the uncaused cause. If you trace things back far enough, everything is caused by something else. I find the possibility of gods far more acceptable than people just going 'Don't know'.