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immortal Souls


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#16    JGirl

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 29 October 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

The differences you create are illusory. They just help to bolster a differentiated, dualistic view of reality which gives rise to desire and suffering.
hmm.
if it's helping to bolster this dualistic view of 'reality' where is the blueprint for the actual 'reality' you refer to - if we have a dualistic view of something that something must first exist. who decides what the 'real'  reality is?


#17    Ryu

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:39 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 29 October 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

The differences you create are illusory. They just help to bolster a differentiated, dualistic view of reality which gives rise to desire and suffering.

You are different from me in many ways. You live in a different area, you like different foods, music and books than I.
Your family, ancestry and heritage are different from mine, your aptitudes are different from mine. Your body is different than mine.
Your very ideas and concepts are different from me...without any of these differences there would be no discussions about anything nor would there be anything invented, discovered or developed.
Everything exists and functions because of these differences regardless of their relative magnitude.

Let's put this in another light, if all the parts of a car were exactly the same then the car simply would not function, would it?


#18    Rlyeh

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:20 AM

View PostPhilangeli, on 29 October 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

The differences you create are illusory. They just help to bolster a differentiated, dualistic view of reality which gives rise to desire and suffering.
Nothing more than conjecture on your behalf. That alone shows we are different.


#19    Philangeli

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:42 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 30 October 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

Nothing more than conjecture on your behalf. That alone shows we are different.
The mind creates everything within it, including perceived external reality, all of which is temporal. You conceive of others, who appear to be different, but that is just your lens of perception. You believe 'others' are real, but where are they, if not in your mind?

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#20    joc

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 30 October 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

The mind creates everything within it, including perceived external reality, all of which is temporal. You conceive of others, who appear to be different, but that is just your lens of perception. You believe 'others' are real, but where are they, if not in your mind?
I do not concur with your premise that the mind creates everything within it.  There is a lot of sensory imput that the brain changes into actualized thought process.  But it isn't 'creating' that imput...rather...it is just broadcasting it. The mind creates reality, but it doesn't create the world around it.  I know what you are trying to say, but I for one, disagree with the concept that, it is all in your mind.

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#21    Rlyeh

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 30 October 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

The mind creates everything within it, including perceived external reality, all of which is temporal. You conceive of others, who appear to be different, but that is just your lens of perception. You believe 'others' are real, but where are they, if not in your mind?
The mind derives everything within it from external stimuli. IMO Solipsism is a mental illness trying to play philosophy.


#22    Philangeli

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

View Postjoc, on 30 October 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

I do not concur with your premise that the mind creates everything within it.  There is a lot of sensory imput that the brain changes into actualized thought process.  But it isn't 'creating' that imput...rather...it is just broadcasting it. The mind creates reality, but it doesn't create the world around it.  I know what you are trying to say, but I for one, disagree with the concept that, it is all in your mind.
The brain, the body, external reality, sensory input - are all concepts within mind. Can you demonstrate how anything can be outside of your mind? I suppose what I am talking about is Subjective Reality with some Zen thrown in, and I suspect I may be off topic here.

There is just one consciousness, one Mind - perceiving through multiple lenses, which gives the impression of separate selves, this and that, inside and outside, etc. But, there is really no differentiation.

Maybe, I'll start another topic on the subject.

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#23    Philangeli

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 02:42 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 30 October 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

The mind derives everything within it from external stimuli. IMO Solipsism is a mental illness trying to play philosophy.
Can you show how external stimuli exist outside of your mind? Whatever you experience - where is it happening?

Philangeli


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#24    joc

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:04 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 30 October 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

The brain, the body, external reality, sensory input - are all concepts within mind. Can you demonstrate how anything can be outside of your mind? I suppose what I am talking about is Subjective Reality with some Zen thrown in, and I suspect I may be off topic here.

There is just one consciousness, one Mind - perceiving through multiple lenses, which gives the impression of separate selves, this and that, inside and outside, etc. But, there is really no differentiation.

Maybe, I'll start another topic on the subject.
I agree...you should start another topic for that.  And I agree...there are really two perspectives at work here...the one you mentioned with which I of course agree...and the other that says...the rock is real and I have to treat it as real.  So...yeah, start a topic and we'll give it all a go.

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#25    JGirl

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:55 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 30 October 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

The mind creates everything within it, including perceived external reality, all of which is temporal. You conceive of others, who appear to be different, but that is just your lens of perception. You believe 'others' are real, but where are they, if not in your mind?
perhaps you can answer my question on this thread. seems you glossed over it, and i'm truly interested in your response.
i submit again:

if it's helping to bolster this dualistic view of 'reality' where is the blueprint for the actual 'reality' you refer to - if we have a dualistic view of something that something must first exist. who decides what the 'real'  reality is?


#26    Rlyeh

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:14 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 30 October 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

Can you show how external stimuli exist outside of your mind? Whatever you experience - where is it happening?
Who are you responding to? Because it sounds like you think you're talking to youself.


#27    Philangeli

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:20 PM

View PostJGirl, on 30 October 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

perhaps you can answer my question on this thread. seems you glossed over it, and i'm truly interested in your response.
i submit again:

if it's helping to bolster this dualistic view of 'reality' where is the blueprint for the actual 'reality' you refer to - if we have a dualistic view of something that something must first exist. who decides what the 'real'  reality is?
Apologies for not replying.

The blueprint is whatever 'lens' you use to perceive the Buddha Mind/the Absolute/Universal Consciousness/God. But your (everyone in general) lens is distorted and clouded and so you interpret shapes and shadows as reality.

There is nothing right or wrong about it. It just happens. We create a reality of distinctions and differences, a reality of polar opposites: good and bad, black and white, etc and we invest our very consciousness in these things.

All these things have a relative existence, or we could say, they neither exist nor do they not exist. However, if we become attached to them, suffering will be the outcome, as we try to 'create' something 'outside' of ourselves which we then desire. In reality, there is no outside (or inside). So, try to rid yourself of opposites.

The Buddha Mind is pure, pristine, crystal clear, forever unperturbed. It holds all  things but is not affected by them.

Your essential nature is the Buddha Mind.

Many of us are on a spiritual path to rediscovering our true nature, symbolized by reaching heaven, Nirvana, becoming enlightened, etc. The path, however, is a mere expedient, a device for helping us along.

Eventually, we become the path, then there is no path.

As Donovan sang in a song once, 'Then there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is'.

Welcome to Zen!

Philangeli


“When thoughts arise, then do all things arise. When thoughts vanish, then do all things vanish.” Huang Po

#28    JGirl

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 30 October 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Apologies for not replying.

The blueprint is whatever 'lens' you use to perceive the Buddha Mind/the Absolute/Universal Consciousness/God. But your (everyone in general) lens is distorted and clouded and so you interpret shapes and shadows as reality.

when you say 'lens' what are you referring to?  and what is this lens distorted and clouded with,  or should i say how did it get clouded, or was it at one time not clouded?
the shapes and shadows part of this made me think of plato's cave.  (?)

There is nothing right or wrong about it. It just happens. We create a reality of distinctions and differences, a reality of polar opposites: good and bad, black and white, etc and we invest our very consciousness in these things.

i feel it's necessary as humans to see things both negatively and positively (black and white if you prefer). how can we know goodness without it's opposite?

All these things have a relative existence, or we could say, they neither exist nor do they not exist. However, if we become attached to them, suffering will be the outcome, as we try to 'create' something 'outside' of ourselves which we then desire. In reality, there is no outside (or inside). So, try to rid yourself of opposites.

how is it that attachment leads always to suffering? this is do not agree with. suffering is subjective in any case.
you mentioned that we are on this path to find our true nature. i am on my path to find my true purpose, my nature is evident to me.



#29    seeking8

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:47 PM

The reason I asked this question was my sister died when she was 8 years old I saw her spirit about two weeks after her furanel she seemed really happy and was smiling. This started the idea in my head that are souls are immortal. But I am also confused at if our souls live on do we stay the same in human form? or do we change our form into the other dimension?


#30    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:39 AM

View PostPhilangeli, on 29 October 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Sounds like they're all in Purgatory. Don't worry, Pope Benedict will bust 'em out! :gun:
If I were a Catholic, I would think I'm in that place called purgatory...instead of being in the Void waiting for the "purification" or deletion of my personality residues for me to be able to merge with God(?). The way I get the Catholic faith is that a person goes to heaven while his identity is still intact, separate from God(?), and God(?) is ever-present, ruling everyone (with a soft glove).

Nirvana is exactly the opposite. One's unique identity is absolutely erased in this reality. Nirvana is totally unreachable from one's material plane of existence and while one is still "aware" of one's personality, uniqueness...separation, as in, "I think; therefore, I am."  

In Nirvana (at least the way my configuration has grasped it), anything outside of Godhead(?) doesn't exist, doesn't compute, doesn't reach It's "awareness" unless one goes through the process of Nirvana (speaking of "Our Town"). God(?) is completely clueless about anything outside of Itself.

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