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Pilot reports 'UFO' as he lands at UK airport

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#106    psyche101

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:27 AM

View PostSheep Smart, on 02 May 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

I like Friedman myself. Im not sure as to what exactly he 'sells'. Ive yet to hear him distort claims or over exagerate upon his investigations.

I think this says it all:


In his book, TOP SECRET/MAJIC, Friedman discusses his early UFO lectures:

"As I gave more lectures, I found that I enjoyed speaking, and that people believed me no matter what I said. After all, I was a nuclear physicist for Westinghouse…"


Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#107    badeskov

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:22 AM

View PostMrSerendipity, on 02 May 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

For your information Stanton Friedman is a BSc. and a MSc. in physics.

So? What exactly does this mean?

Quote

He worked for numerous companies for 14 years as a nuclear physicist.

He worked for 6 companies over the course of 14 years. Frankly, that is not exactly impressive accolades for someone calling himself a scientist, especially as I have personally not been able to find a single, scientific article attributed to him (something scientists do, publish).

Quote

He has been researching the UFO subject for 39 years.

If his research skills are reflective of his working skills, I am not surprised he did not last longer at either place.

Quote

In that time he has lectured at more than 600 colleges and 100 professional groups in 50 US states, 10 Canadian provinces and 18 other countries in addition to various nuclear consulting efforts.  He has published more than 90 UFO papers and has appeared on hundreds of radio and TV programs including Larry King in 2007 and twice in 2008, and many documentaries.

Again, so? So have many other snake oil sales men (*cough*hoagland*cough*).

Quote

He has interviewed many reliable witnesses to the Roswell incident

How do you define reliable? People that continuously change their stories over the years? Seems like Mr. Friedman relied on people that made their tale more and more "interesting", whereas the importance of the witnesses that did not change their stories were grossly understated. One would think it would be the other way around.

Quote

and has studied countless government documents as well.

And yet managed to grossly misrepresent them in his books, because if he had quoted honestly and not out of context, there was no way to reach the conclusions that he did. What do you think that means?

I suggest you take your version of "Crash at Corona" and compare his representation of the Twining/Schulgen memos with the actual originals. But you don't really wanna do that, do you? Takes the dream away, I guess.

Quote

He has yet to be talked down by anybody about the subject of flying saucers.

Haha, you are joking, right?

Quote

You, on the other hand, haven't done anything that remotely compares to what Mr. Friedman has done and achieved - have you??
:P

I would hope not, as that is certainly not a path I would personally take. I would prefer a path of integrity and honesty.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Edited by badeskov, 03 May 2013 - 03:38 AM.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#108    DONTEATUS

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 04:14 AM

You Go Badeskov`s I hear you on this ! We know from whince Stanton`s Bread was buttered ! IT will all come out in the Wash,THat is If he ever quits producing such B.S. One of the harder things to get out of ones trowsers !

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#109    Kugelblitz

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:55 AM

There is a YouTube video entitled "Stanton Friedman is Out There".  I highly recommend it to all the Friedman devotees to shed some light on their "mentor".  Amongst the self-revealed revelations is that Friedman got into the UFO business by ordering a book on the topic to get a bulk discount on other books.  Upon reading it, decided to give the lecture circuit a whirl, and found that he could make more than 3 times his normal working wage just giving one lecture on the topic.  Again, watch the documentary (I believe it is on the UFO Studios Channel) to see for yourself.  The amount of money involved in this business is deceiving.  I would estimate that someone like Friedman makes a minimum of $300K per year and that is probably a conservative number given his lectures, book sales, and interview fees he earns.  Is it millions? No.  But it still pays better than Wal-mart and he gets to be a 'celebrity' of sorts, though I am not sure I would want to be a UFO heavy weight.

I believe that he and Bill Moore personally concocted the modern Roswell narrative in the early 1970's by parsing together various mythological fragments extant in the local area and finding some folks with questionable integrity from the time period when the event purportedly happened (Glen Dennis) to corroborate their tale.  He and Mr. Moore are tied into the dubious MJ-12 documents which, given Friedman's lifelong investment in the Roswell tale, explains the papers true origins.  Roswell is and will always be Friedman's bread and butter which is why he is nearly the lone believer (on the "professional" circuit that is) in this event.  

There are a lot of people like Friedman in the UFO community, in fact, I find it inundated with former Army and other service members who are dissatisfied with their pensions or their life's accomplishments.  If they happened to serve in these different government arenas during the mid 20th century (e.g. Mr. Corso), Viola! I was a former UFO crash recovery dude!!  Never mind that I live in a hovel in rural New Mexico which refutes the age old axiom of knowledge, power, and money.  

It is truly a story of follow the money in the instance of Mr. Friedman, and for that matter, Mr. Hoagland, and Mr. Dolan's cases as well (that is knowing proponents of fallacious stories).  Real science is really interesting.  For all of you hopelessly chasing flying saucers and spending many hours dissecting fake YouTube videos, give real science a go!  NASA (who really landed a man on the moon and is not hiding the terrible truth about Ancient Aliens) could use your support.

Peace.


#110    Kludge808

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:18 AM

View PostKugelblitz, on 03 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

There is a YouTube video entitled "Stanton Friedman is Out There".  I highly recommend it to all the Friedman devotees to shed some light on their "mentor".
I deleted the rest for brevity however that was an exceptional post. :nw: :nw: :nw: :tsu: :tsu: :tsu:

There is only one major downside to it.  The FTBs will see this as heresy and subject you to such horrors as drive-by shunnings and other Really Terrible Things.  Friedman, Hoagland, Moore and others are milking the alien cow for all it's worth, and the believers eat it all up as factual fact.  It's like others who follow Foerster & Dunn with their ancient astronaut nonsense.  You're right, though.  There's money to be had for those who have the scruples of ... well, actually I can't think of anyone or anything else with that low a scruple count (except maybe politicians) ... and can sleep with a seriously flawed conscious.

You're a welcome voice of reason and it's good to see you come on board with things like this.

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#111    Kludge808

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:24 PM

View PostMrSerendipity, on 02 May 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

For your information Stanton Friedman is a BSc. and a MSc. in physics.
[remaining "glowing god-worship" deleted]

For your information, none of that means squat. *snip* Like Hoagland and others, he has no credibility outside the woo woo clan in the FTB community.

As to Roswell, the definition of "reliable witness" goes well past questionable to just downright ridiculous. Bade already gave you one lace to look but there's an incredible amount of total garbage that can be discounted if you do a little reading.

Quote

He has yet to be talked down by anybody about the subject of flying saucers.
That's just too funny for words.

Quote

You, on the other hand, haven't done anything that remotely compares to what Mr. Friedman has done and achieved - have you?? :P
Nope, thankfully.  And I hope I never sink that low.

Edited by Saru, 04 May 2013 - 05:48 PM.
Removed personal remark

Whirled Infamous Author and all around really strange person
Not a complete idiot.  Some pieces are missing.

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#112    mcrom901

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:40 PM

what are the laws in the uk? i mean if it isn't something that flies with due regard and *cough* isn't natural, surely they should scramble it? have they given up? are aliens too good for us or are we finally settling with down to earth realities?



eta... ignore the commentary around the 13 sec mark // 'craft'

Edited by mcrom901, 03 May 2013 - 01:50 PM.


#113    mcrom901

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:49 PM

View Postbeerengine, on 30 April 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

I think these things a part of some deception of a spiritual nature.

Posted Image


#114    bison

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 03:55 PM

Stanton Friedman has not hesitated to describe, in general terms, his work history on nuclear powered aircraft, fission and fusion rockets, and compact nuclear power plants for space applications, although the details were often classified. The fact that he was working on cutting-edge projects obviously had something to do with the fact that he had to change jobs several times, when these projects were canceled, or about to be canceled.  This was the case with his employment at  General Electric, McDonnell Douglas, and Westinghouse.
His employment in some instances amounted to consulting work for specific projects, intended to be completed in a relatively short term.  If his work had been unsatisfactory, it seems remarkable that he was able to continue to find employment in this field for fourteen years. Even after he took up writing and public speaking, he continued to do consulting work in nuclear physics.
Stanton Friedman was not an academic scientist. He worked in industrial settings, on classified projects, and those where proprietary information was involved. I would not find it too surprising if he did not publish papers on his work.

Edited by bison, 03 May 2013 - 03:57 PM.


#115    Caledonianwarrior

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:12 PM

View Postbison, on 03 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Stanton Friedman has not hesitated to describe, in general terms, his work history on nuclear powered aircraft, fission and fusion rockets, and compact nuclear power plants for space applications, although the details were often classified. The fact that he was working on cutting-edge projects obviously had something to do with the fact that he had to change jobs several times, when these projects were canceled, or about to be canceled.  This was the case with his employment at  General Electric, McDonnell Douglas, and Westinghouse.
His employment in some instances amounted to consulting work for specific projects, intended to be completed in a relatively short term.  If his work had been unsatisfactory, it seems remarkable that he was able to continue to find employment in this field for fourteen years. Even after he took up writing and public speaking, he continued to do consulting work in nuclear physics.
Stanton Friedman was not an academic scientist. He worked in industrial settings, on classified projects, and those where proprietary information was involved. I would not find it too surprising if he did not publish papers on his work.
I find Friedman a very  interesting character.

You either believe he is on to something or you don't ,it's a personal choice .

The debunkers will debunk , the believers will believe and the open minded will fall somewhere in the middle ,the more things change the more they remain the same.

Edited by Caledonianwarrior, 03 May 2013 - 09:15 PM.

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#116    Technocrat

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:12 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 03 May 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

what are the laws in the uk? i mean if it isn't something that flies with due regard and *cough* isn't natural, surely they should scramble it? have they given up? are aliens too good for us or are we finally settling with down to earth realities?



eta... ignore the commentary around the 13 sec mark // 'craft'

Great post! :tu:

Posted Image


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#117    badeskov

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:10 AM

View PostCaledonianwarrior, on 03 May 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

I find Friedman a very  interesting character.

Interesting is one way of putting it, I honestly wouldn't agree with that label to be honest.

Quote

You either believe he is on to something or you don't ,it's a personal choice .

Not really, it is a question of facts. I personally have a very hard time with people that needs to twist facts and misconstrue to argue a case. And undeniably that is what Mr. Friedman seems to require to argue his case. That in itself speaks volumes.

Quote

The debunkers will debunk , the believers will believe and the open minded will fall somewhere in the middle ,the more things change the more they remain the same.

Indeed.

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#118    badeskov

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:34 AM

View Postbison, on 03 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Stanton Friedman has not hesitated to describe, in general terms, his work history on nuclear powered aircraft, fission and fusion rockets, and compact nuclear power plants for space applications, although the details were often classified.

That part immediately hurts the eyes. First of all, I could tell you all kinds of stories on what I worked on without any of them being true. How would you know? Secondly, when you are working on classified projects you don't talk about what you did, even in very general terms. If you start talking about that you make yourself a target for other entities that would like to acquire said technologies.

Quote

The fact that he was working on cutting-edge projects obviously had something to do with the fact that he had to change jobs several times, when these projects were canceled, or about to be canceled.

Oh really? That is typically not how it works. If you are really good in a field you will typically stay with the entity you are with already. Especially back then research positions were typically of long time duration.

Quote

This was the case with his employment at  General Electric, McDonnell Douglas, and Westinghouse.

And you know this how?

Quote

His employment in some instances amounted to consulting work for specific projects, intended to be completed in a relatively short term.  If his work had been unsatisfactory, it seems remarkable that he was able to continue to find employment in this field for fourteen years.

Not really. Working as a consultant is vastly different in that respect. But since we have no idea of the veracity of his claims, the point is moot.

Quote

Even after he took up writing and public speaking, he continued to do consulting work in nuclear physics.

Doing RADON detectors and the like, you mean?

Quote

Stanton Friedman was not an academic scientist. He worked in industrial settings, on classified projects, and those where proprietary information was involved. I would not find it too surprising if he did not publish papers on his work.

When you call yourself a scientist, you publish. That is part of being a scientist, you disseminate your results for peer review. If you on the other hand work in a closed environment you work towards a specific goal to make something and you do not utilize peer review. Then you are not a scientist. That is why scientists working in classified projects also publish. They publish what they can, which is typically related areas omitting specifics to what they are doing as classified work.  

For instance, that ties in what was stated above. If you were working in the field of nuclear propulsion on a classified project, you would not publish any specifics of that. You could publish something in that field, say how a specific particle behaves in a given electrical field, yet you would not have to make any ties to nuclear propulsion or the like.

Frankly, the whole thing reeks like...well...

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#119    badeskov

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:07 AM

View PostKugelblitz, on 03 May 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

There is a YouTube video entitled "Stanton Friedman is Out There".  I highly recommend it to all the Friedman devotees to shed some light on their "mentor".  Amongst the self-revealed revelations is that Friedman got into the UFO business by ordering a book on the topic to get a bulk discount on other books.  Upon reading it, decided to give the lecture circuit a whirl, and found that he could make more than 3 times his normal working wage just giving one lecture on the topic.  Again, watch the documentary (I believe it is on the UFO Studios Channel) to see for yourself.  The amount of money involved in this business is deceiving.  I would estimate that someone like Friedman makes a minimum of $300K per year and that is probably a conservative number given his lectures, book sales, and interview fees he earns.  Is it millions? No.  But it still pays better than Wal-mart and he gets to be a 'celebrity' of sorts, though I am not sure I would want to be a UFO heavy weight.

Precisely.

Quote

I believe that he and Bill Moore personally concocted the modern Roswell narrative in the early 1970's by parsing together various mythological fragments extant in the local area and finding some folks with questionable integrity from the time period when the event purportedly happened (Glen Dennis) to corroborate their tale.  He and Mr. Moore are tied into the dubious MJ-12 documents which, given Friedman's lifelong investment in the Roswell tale, explains the papers true origins.  Roswell is and will always be Friedman's bread and butter which is why he is nearly the lone believer (on the "professional" circuit that is) in this event.  

That Mr. Friedman and Mr. Moore concocted the modern Roswell tale is a known fact. There is little to argue in that respect.

Quote

There are a lot of people like Friedman in the UFO community, in fact, I find it inundated with former Army and other service members who are dissatisfied with their pensions or their life's accomplishments.  If they happened to serve in these different government arenas during the mid 20th century (e.g. Mr. Corso), Viola! I was a former UFO crash recovery dude!!  Never mind that I live in a hovel in rural New Mexico which refutes the age old axiom of knowledge, power, and money.  

Indeed.

Quote

It is truly a story of follow the money in the instance of Mr. Friedman, and for that matter, Mr. Hoagland, and Mr. Dolan's cases as well (that is knowing proponents of fallacious stories).

The thing about this is that it is blatantly obvious and so it the motive - now. I say now because I am still undecided as to whether Mr. Friedman truly believed he had stumbled onto something incredible to begin with and he got caught up in it and could not leave as he put his reputation on the stake, or if he spotted a cash cow to begin with.  

Quote

Real science is really interesting.


Real science is really interesting indeed. I wish more people would enjoy it.

Quote

For all of you hopelessly chasing flying saucers and spending many hours dissecting fake YouTube videos, give real science a go!  NASA (who really landed a man on the moon and is not hiding the terrible truth about Ancient Aliens) could use your support.

They indeed could, but on the other hand I find a lot of support around for that.

Cheers,
Badeskov

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#120    SwampgasBalloonBoy

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:38 AM

View Postbadeskov, on 04 May 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

That part immediately hurts the eyes. First of all, I could tell you all kinds of stories on what I worked on without any of them being true. How would you know? Secondly, when you are working on classified projects you don't talk about what you did, even in very general terms. If you start talking about that you make yourself a target for other entities that would like to acquire said technologies.



Oh really? That is typically not how it works. If you are really good in a field you will typically stay with the entity you are with already. Especially back then research positions were typically of long time duration.



And you know this how?



Not really. Working as a consultant is vastly different in that respect. But since we have no idea of the veracity of his claims, the point is moot.



Doing RADON detectors and the like, you mean?



When you call yourself a scientist, you publish. That is part of being a scientist, you disseminate your results for peer review. If you on the other hand work in a closed environment you work towards a specific goal to make something and you do not utilize peer review. Then you are not a scientist. That is why scientists working in classified projects also publish. They publish what they can, which is typically related areas omitting specifics to what they are doing as classified work.  

For instance, that ties in what was stated above. If you were working in the field of nuclear propulsion on a classified project, you would not publish any specifics of that. You could publish something in that field, say how a specific particle behaves in a given electrical field, yet you would not have to make any ties to nuclear propulsion or the like.

Frankly, the whole thing reeks like...well...


Cheers,
Badeskov

I disagreed with this pov. So only people that published are scientist, what do we call people with PhD that don't publish(beside their dissertation)? People that publish are usually researchers that work for university. A lot of these people love the recognition. Obviously, they also want to advance in their career. But do not discount the recognition part. That's why they always want to be the first to publish their finding. Private sector scientists rarely publish their research. Do you think a chemist working for a drug company, where patent for a new drug is the end all and be all, would announce to the world on their progress? Do you think scientist working for a military would publish what they're working on?





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