11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Part 5-6:

[Otharus]

Part 7-8 (8 misnumbered as 9):

Edited by Otharus, 24 February 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[Otharus]

Part 9-10 (misnumbered as 10-11):

[Otharus]

In the one I posted, the beginning was missing.
Here it is:

[Abramelin]

Good idea, Otharus, I'm going to watch that movie tonight. ""The White Viking", that is.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 February 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 23 February 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Did anyone notice those 'thingies' that look like the OLB tildes in the document in my former post?

A screenshot:

ANNODOMINI_1245.jpg

http://www.cartago.n...kla0006_001.jpg

And you will see the document is full with corrections. Wouldn't it be nice if the -X- in MCCXLV was also a mistake??    In that case the date would be MCCLV = 1255, the date the OLB almost got destroyed by a flood. But our Hiddo would have had serious health problems, his wife being a widow and all that...

Otharus, Knul, Van Gorp, anyone: what can you make of that date? I recognize the year, MCCXLV = 1245
I recognize XVIII = 18.

But what comes last looks like 'Chinese' to me.

One translation says it's December 18:

Acta sunt hec Groninge anno domini MCCXLV, XVIII kalendas decembris.
These are the reports of the public acts of Groningen in the year 1245, 18 December

Another says it's November 14th:

http://books.google....l=nl&sa=X&ei=Y-

I think the last one is wrong concerning the day number, but maybe it is right about the month, November.

Why is that interesting?

Hilde, Hielke, Hielko, Hilko, Hille, Hylko, Hielkje, Hil, Hilda, Hilla, Hilly, Hiltje, Hylke, Ilda (Du.), Elda (Ital.).

Afgeleid van het Germaanse 'hild', met de betekenis 'strijd'. De naam betekent; de strijder, de strijdlustige

Op 17 november is er een feestdag ter ere van Hilda, in de 8ste eeuw abdis van een klooster bij Whitby in Engeland.

(...)

Derived from the German 'hild', meaning 'battle'. The name means 'warrior', 'the militant'.

On November 17th there is a festival in the honor of Hilda, during the 6th century in a convent near Whitby, England.


=====

Hidde, Hiddo, Hidske, Hidda, Hiddeke.

Afgeleid van het Germaanse 'hild', met de betekenis; strijd.

Voornamelijk in Friesland en Groningen voorkomende naam.

(...)

Mainly a common name in Friesland and Groningen

http://www.gerardlen...aam/namenh.html


I already quoted from another site that explains "Hidde" (and not Sandbach's "Hiddo", which is not in the OLB) as a girl's name meaning "brave heroin".


So what I am saying is this: a woman called "Hidde Aldgerda/Aldgerdis" , accompanied by her two sons Occo and Gergardus, sold her property, including 1400 books, to a nearby convent with the name Yesse/Jesse.

A day after her socalled "name-day".

I had never heard of a "name-day" before I met Hungarians and Serbians/Kroats. It is the day of the saint you have been named after. That day is to them as important as the day they were born and they have a party (I know, I was there).

Can you imagine this: a woman, a widow called "Hidde Aldgerda/Algerdis" decided, a day after the celibration of her name-day, to sell her property to some nearby convent. And she went accompanied by her two sons of which one was called "Occo".

You might think that - after reading the OLB - no Frisian was inclined to 'honor' Christian name-days, but I think they just had to. Those times were not like modern times when you can say , "Fk Christmas, I am not interested".

You would have to follow the 'Christian rules', or else be branded as a heretic and face the consequences.

And most often you would simply be killed by hanging, or be stoned to death, or drowned in some swamp.

People knew your first name, and they expected you to celibrate your name-day because some fkg 'saint' happened to have the same name as you had.

If you didn't, your ass was for the pious ones, heh.




.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 February 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 24 February 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Good idea, Otharus, I'm going to watch that movie tonight. ""The White Viking", that is.

Enoy!

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 24 February 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

Enoy!

I will, no doubt about that.

I also hope you enjoyed my former post.

(And yes, I'm done editing now).

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 24 February 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I also hope you enjoyed my former post.

What I find most significant about it is the number of books (1400!?).

It shows how much must have been lost/ gone.

That there is similarities in names does not surprise me, but it suggests they were part of the same culture.
(In the area where I live there are Okkema's, Halbertsma's etc.)

If you have ever studied a family tree, you'll see the same names coming back over and over again.
(My brother, father, g-father, g-g-father and g-g-g-father (and the latter's father's-brother) all have/ had exactly the same name: "Alewijn". I was named after a g-uncle, who was named after his uncle, who was named after his uncle, who was named after his g-father, who was named after his g-father.)

There's not that many names (now more than in the past).

Also, I don't believe that naming by name-days has ever been a big thing here.

~ ~ ~

I'm busy reading "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" by dr. M. de Jong Hzn. (1927).

And I prepare a follow-up (conclusion) of my posts about criticism of religions.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 24 February 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

Otharus, Knul, Van Gorp, anyone: what can you make of that date? I recognize the year, MCCXLV = 1245
I recognize XVIII = 18.

But what comes last looks like 'Chinese' to me.

One translation says it's December 18:

Acta sunt hec Groninge anno domini MCCXLV, XVIII kalendas decembris.
These are the reports of the public acts of Groningen in the year 1245, 18 December

Another says it's November 14th:

http://books.google....l=nl&sa=X&ei=Y-

I think the last one is wrong concerning the day number, but maybe it is right about the month, November.

Why is that interesting?

Hilde, Hielke, Hielko, Hilko, Hille, Hylko, Hielkje, Hil, Hilda, Hilla, Hilly, Hiltje, Hylke, Ilda (Du.), Elda (Ital.).

Afgeleid van het Germaanse 'hild', met de betekenis 'strijd'. De naam betekent; de strijder, de strijdlustige

Op 17 november is er een feestdag ter ere van Hilda, in de 8ste eeuw abdis van een klooster bij Whitby in Engeland.

(...)

Derived from the German 'hild', meaning 'battle'. The name means 'warrior', 'the militant'.

On November 17th there is a festival in the honor of Hilda, during the 6th century in a convent near Whitby, England.


=====

Hidde, Hiddo, Hidske, Hidda, Hiddeke.

Afgeleid van het Germaanse 'hild', met de betekenis; strijd.

Voornamelijk in Friesland en Groningen voorkomende naam.

(...)

Mainly a common name in Friesland and Groningen

http://www.gerardlen...aam/namenh.html


I already quoted from another site that explains "Hidde" (and not Sandbach's "Hiddo", which is not in the OLB) as a girl's name meaning "brave heroin".


So what I am saying is this: a woman called "Hidde Aldgerda/Aldgerdis" , accompanied by her two sons Occo and Gergardus, sold her property, including 1400 books, to a nearby convent with the name Yesse/Jesse.

A day after her socalled "name-day".

I had never heard of a "name-day" before I met Hungarians and Serbians/Kroats. It is the day of the saint you have been named after. That day is to them as important as the day they were born and they have a party (I know, I was there).

Can you imagine this: a woman, a widow called "Hidde Aldgerda/Algerdis" decided, a day after the celibration of her name-day, to sell her property to some nearby convent. And she went accompanied by her two sons of which one was called "Occo".

You might think that - after reading the OLB - no Frisian was inclined to 'honor' Christian name-days, but I think they just had to. Those times were not like modern times when you can say , "Fk Christmas, I am not interested".

You would have to follow the 'Christian rules', or else be branded as a heretic and face the consequences.

And most often you would simply be killed by hanging, or be stoned to death, or drowned in some swamp.

People knew your first name, and they expected you to celibrate your name-day because some fkg 'saint' happened to have the same name as you had.

If you didn't, your ass was for the pious ones, heh.




.

Hi Abe, interesting tildes and numbers.
From my point of view I had to think of Simon Stevin who combined these 2 (f.e. ~p abbrevation of plus, ~m of minus, ...). This just to mention.
But to the point: i studied Latin, but I can remember how I couldn't understand how that awefull system came about.

I mean, if dates are that important: why such a rocketscience behind the 'system'.  Sorry for the dutch text below, but I couldn't describe it better with an English translation.  My fault I know, but just exemplary of what is involved to trace back the day of month.  The only thing i remember was my feeling: 'Who invent ssuch a method?'

De namen van onze maanden zijn afgeleid van de Latijnse benamingen, die eigenlijk adjectieven waren: (mensis) Ianuarius, Februarius, Martius, Aprilis, Maius, Iunius, Quintilis (later Iulius), Sextilis (later Augustus), September, October, November en December. Uit de namen Quintilis (vijfde maand), Sextilis (zesde maand) enz. blijkt dat maart oorspronkelijk de eerste maand van het jaar was. Vanaf 153 v.C. begon het jaar op 1 januari, omdat op die datum de meeste magistraten hun ambtstermijn aanvatten.

De Romeinen gaven speciale namen aan drie vaste dagen van hun maanden:

– Kalendae (afk. Kal.): kalenden, d.i. de 1ste dag van elke maand;
– Nonae (afk. Non.): nonen, d.i. de 5de dag van de maand (de 7de in maart, mei, juli en oktober);
– Idus (afk. Id.): iden, d.i. de 13de dag van de maand (de 15de in maart, mei, juli en oktober).

Een datum met een van die drie vaste dagen zette men in de ablatief: bv. Kalendis Ianuariis (1 januari), Nonis Decembribus (5 december), Idibus Martiis (15 maart). De overige dagen van de maand werden van die drie teruggeteld. De dag voor de kalenden, nonen en iden werd aangeduid door pridie met de accusatief: bv. pridie Idus Ianuarias (12 januari), pridie Kalendas Februarias (31 januari). De voorafgaande dagen telde men zo terug, dat de dagen van welke en tot welke men telde, werden meegerekend: bv. (die) tertio (ante) Idus Ianuarias (11 januari), (die) quarto (ante) Nonas Martias (4 maart). Door omzetting zei men echter, i.p.v. bv. (die) octavo (ante) Kalendas Decembres, gewoonlijk bv. ante diem octavum Kalendas Decembres en schreef men a. d. VIII Kal. Dec. (24 november).

Om een Romeinse datum in een moderne om te zetten moet je het getal in de Latijnse datum aftrekken van het volgnummer van de dag van de nonen of de iden vermeerderd met één: bv. quinto Nonas Iulias (7 + 1 – 5 = 3 juli), tertio Idus Octobres (15 + 1 – 3 = 13 oktober);
– het getal in de Latijnse datum aftrekken van het aantal dagen van de voorafgaande maand vermeerderd met twee, als het om de kalenden gaat: bv. quarto Kalendas Novembres (31 + 2 – 4 = 29 oktober).

When applied to your text, I wonder what is meant with the word before December (maybe for you clear?).  Is it Tils or something or Kalendis (I can't see it right away).  Just to be sure how to calculate (f.e. if it was III Idus Januarias -> 11 January).

The last sentance is just Dutch right?

[Abramelin]

Let's see if this works:

There appears to be an error with the database.

If you are seeing this page, it means there was a problem communicating with our database. Sometimes this error is temporary and will go away when you refresh the page. Sometimes the error will need to be fixed by an administrator before the site will become accessible again.

++

EDIT:

OK, it works (UM was inaccessible for like 90 minutes).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 February 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, the word before - what you call - December is "anno domini" or actually an abbreviation: "anno dni".

But that is my problem, what month is it?? I can't read that month 'hieroglyph'.

And yes, the last sentience is indeed in Dutch, and it says that.... it is a copy of the original, jeesh.

http://www.cartago.n...kla0006_001.jpg

++++

EDIT:

 ANNODOMINI_1245_2.jpg   5.21K   9 downloads

anno dni m cc xlv. xvm ???

+++++++++++

EDIT:

God, I should have my eyes checked:

 ANNODOMINI_1245_3.jpg   2.32K   7 downloads

Yes, it is of course December, but I have no idea what comes right after "anno dni m cc xlv. xvm"

Well, anyway, it's December.

But it is a copy of the original, and like I showed you yesterday, another source claims the month is November.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 February 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 25 February 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

What I find most significant about it is the number of books (1400!?).

It shows how much must have been lost/ gone.

That there is similarities in names does not surprise me, but it suggests they were part of the same culture.
(In the area where I live there are Okkema's, Halbertsma's etc.)

If you have ever studied a family tree, you'll see the same names coming back over and over again.
(My brother, father, g-father, g-g-father and g-g-g-father (and the latter's father's-brother) all have/ had exactly the same name: "Alewijn". I was named after a g-uncle, who was named after his uncle, who was named after his uncle, who was named after his g-father, who was named after his g-father.)

There's not that many names (now more than in the past).

Also, I don't believe that naming by name-days has ever been a big thing here.

~ ~ ~

I'm busy reading "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" by dr. M. de Jong Hzn. (1927).

And I prepare a follow-up (conclusion) of my posts about criticism of religions.

Yes, 1400 books !! This Alfgerdis/Alfgerda family were not poor peasants. Well, at the moment they decided to sell all they had, they of course must have had financial problems.

What is interesting about this Yesse convent is that its people were famous for their waterworks: canals, dikes, sluices and so on. And archeologists are right now busy with a dig at what was left of the convent/monastery. At the end of the 16th century it was abandoned because of the wars and occupations by soldiers/knights.

The name "Alfgerda" or "Alfgerd" is an interesting one: you will only find it in Norway and Iceland.

ALFGERD
http://www.babynolog...lfgerd-f49.html

http://www.suggestba...me_alfgerd.html

http://norwegianbaby...ian&gender=girl


Another woman named "the healer" is Álfgerðr læknir of Droplaugarsona saga:

Another woman doctor (læknir) is mentioned in Droplaugarsona Saga. When Helgi, one of the famous brothers in the saga, was killed in battle along with his brother Thorkell and several other men, his brother Grim was severely wounded and thought to be dead. Their aunt Groa came out to meet those bringing back the dead and wounded, and thought Grim might be still alive. She announced that she and her son would watch over the bodies that night, and while people slept she went to find Alfgerd the doctor, and brought her back with her. The bodies of Helgi and Thorkell were prepared for burial next morning, and it was thought that Grim was laid in the mound with them, but he was taken away secretly by Alfgerd after she had attended to his wounds, to prevent news of his survival reaching his enemies. He spent the winter recovering and then stayed some years with a kinsman in another part of the country, finally returning to slay the man who had killed his brother Helgi.

http://www.vikingans.../medicine.shtml



Landnámabók- THE BOOK OF THE SETTLEMENT OF ICELAND

Thorgeir first had to wife Gudrid, the daughter of Thorkell the Swart, their sons were Thorkell Flake and Hoskuld, Tjorfi, Kolgrim, Thorstein, and Thorvard, and a daughter, Sigrid. After that he married Alfgerd, the daughter of Arngeir the Eastman or Norwegian; Thorgeir also had for wife Thorkatla, the daughter of Dales-Koll; his sons with these wives were the following: Thorgrim, Thorgils, Ottar, these were b=astard born: Thorgrim and Finn the Dreamwise, his mother was named Lecny, of foreign kindred.

http://www.northvegr...amabok/023.html


The Book of Settlements: Landnamabok Door Hermann Pálsson
http://books.google....alfgerd&f=false

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 February 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, I discovered what that mysterious 'hieroglyph' means:

 ANNODOMINI_1245_2.jpg   5.21K   9 downloads
 ANNODOMINI_1245_3.jpg   2.32K   7 downloads

Here:

 ANNODOMINI_1245_4.jpg   18.39K   2 downloads

It means "kal.", short for 'kalendri'.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

EDIT:

Someone working in the archives did indeed make a mistake:

ogd0105 105 14 nov. 1245 Het bestuur en de inwoners van Groningen verklaren, dat Alfgerdis en haar twee zoons goederen aan het klooster Jesse hebben verkocht.

http://www.cartago.n...ogd/ogd0001.htm

And then read the text in the head of the copy itself, and then what's in the text itself, at the bottom:

http://www.cartago.n...nde/ogd0105.xml

That is a real blunder, I'd say.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 February 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 25 February 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Van Gorp, I discovered what that mysterious 'hieroglyph' means:

ANNODOMINI_1245_2.jpg
ANNODOMINI_1245_3.jpg

Here:

ANNODOMINI_1245_4.jpg

It means "kal.", short for 'kalendri'.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

EDIT:

Someone working in the archives did indeed make a mistake:

ogd0105 105 14 nov. 1245 Het bestuur en de inwoners van Groningen verklaren, dat Alfgerdis en haar twee zoons goederen aan het klooster Jesse hebben verkocht.

http://www.cartago.n...ogd/ogd0001.htm

And then read the text in the head of the copy itself, and then what's in the text itself, at the bottom:

http://www.cartago.n...nde/ogd0105.xml

That is a real blunder, I'd say.

.

Yo Abe,

Was calculating further.
I really don't want to hassle you, just help :-)

Indeed I think also it is abrevation of Kal.  So 18 days to be counted before Kalendas December (1 December)
For these Latin calenders it matters, what a hassle they make of it :-)
As in the Dutch text I posted before, just from internet (the ante or priedi falls away frequently).
So both are right in that sense that Latin date XVIII Kal Dec points to 18 days  before 1 December (included) :-)

In attach my calculation: 14 November.