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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#7576    The Puzzler

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:48 AM

2345 B.C. - Eco-disaster focused in the Levant as shown in tree-rings. End of Egyptian Old Dynasty?
The French archaeologist, Marie-Agnes Courty, presented a paper at the Society for Inter-Disciplinary Studies' July 1997 conference at Cambridge University, in which she first detailed the findings of excavations at a site in northern Syria, at Tell Leilan. This was the first time ever that an archaeological excavation had been initiated where the main purpose was to examine the stratigraphical record of the area with a view to searching for evidence of 'scorched earth' due to a suspected episode of extra-terrestrial 'fireball bombardment'.

She and her team found much evidence of microscopic glass spherules typical of melted sand and rock which is caused by the intense heat resulting from an asteroid impact or air-burst. She recommended further excavations there and at other sites. It would make sense that attention should be focussed on sites once occupied at dates where the tree-ring chronologies show evidence of abrupt climate changes - as at Tell Leilan in northern Syria, where the 'burn event' has now been dated by Courty as immediately prior to 2345 BC, a 'narrowest tree-ring' date.
Another with no human fatality numbers included in the calculations.
Scientists have found the first evidence that a devastating meteor impact in the Middle East might have triggered the mysterious collapse of civilisations more than 4,000 years ago.

Studies of satellite images of southern Iraq have revealed a two-mile- wide circular depression which scientists say bears all the hallmarks of an impact crater. If confirmed, it would point to the Middle East being struck by a meteor with the violence equivalent to hundreds of nuclear bombs. Today's crater lies on what would have been shallow sea 4,000 years ago, and any impact would have caused devastating fires and flooding. The catastrophic effect of these could explain the mystery of why so many early cultures went into sudden decline around 2300 BC. - The crater's faint outline was found by Dr Sharad Master, a geologist at the University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, on satellite images of the Al 'Amarah region, about 10 miles north-west of the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates and home of the Marsh Arabs. (Robert Matthews Science Correspondent, The Telegraph - London 11-4-1)

http://www.sott.net/...ery-Close-Calls

God does send fire and brimstone onto Sodom and Gomorrah. This indicates imo some kind of cataclysm in that area in the time given to Abraham, which is around 2000BC.

I really don't think it is in it for the sake of it.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#7577    Alewyn

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:08 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 15 November 2011 - 10:36 PM, said:

You can repeat the ScienceDaily article all you want, but it's still in agreement that the earths axial tilt changes in a continuous cycle. And contrary to what the OLB says, this tilt did not happen in 2193/2194 BC. It was something that was already in progress as were its affects, as well, for some 1300 years before the OLB's claims.

None of this is validation for the 2193/2194 BC date, which is something I've been saying for awhile.

cormac
Agreement” only says that at this stage it is the most acceptable theory in scientific circles. It does not mean that it has been proven.

How would you explain this quote from the book of Enoch, which is from the other side of the world and which was not known to anybody in the Netherlands in the 1860’s?

The Book of Enoch
Chapter 55
(4) And when that agitation took place; the saints out of heaven perceived it; the pillar of the earth shook from its foundation; and the sound was heard from the extremities of the earth unto the extremities of heaven at the same time.

Chapter 64
In those days Noah saw that the earth became inclined, and that destruction approached.(2) Then he lifted up his feet, and went to the ends of the earth, to the dwelling of his great-grandfather Enoch. (3) And Noah cried with a bitter voice, Hear me; hear me; hear me: three times. And he said, Tell me what is transacting upon the earth; for the earth labours, and is violently shaken. Surely I shall perish with it. (4) After this there was a great perturbation on earth, and a voice was heard from heaven. I fell down on my face, when my great-grandfather Enoch came and stood by me.

This echoes what the OLB says and what scientists have found. Scientists, however, are not certain whether it happened gradually (over millennia) or suddenly (over centuries). Both these ancient and independent sources are very clear that it happened almost instantaneously.

Your claim that it is part of a continuous cycle or that it was a gradual process is an unproven theory despite your efforts to promote it as a proven fact.


#7578    Alewyn

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:25 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 16 November 2011 - 01:12 AM, said:

Alewyn, I hope you have caught up with this latest revelation...

[1] A POSSIBLE NEW IMPACT SITE NEAR NALBACH (SAARLAND, GERMANY)

http://www.chiemgau-impact.com/

Thanks Puzzler. No, I was not aware of this website.
I just glanced over it and it would appear that scientists have not dated it conclusively (yet). Some of the diagrams would seem to indicate that the most recent pre-impact layers, however, dates to about 4000 years BP (2000 BC). This could make it very relevant to our discussion.
Thanks.


#7579    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:40 AM

Quote

“Agreement” only says that at this stage it is the most acceptable theory in scientific circles. It does not mean that it has been proven.

It DOES mean, however, that you're going to have to come up with something more substantial than "because the OLB says so".

Quote

Chapter 55
(4) And when that agitation took place; the saints out of heaven perceived it; the pillar of the earth shook from its foundation; and the sound was heard from the extremities of the earth unto the extremities of heaven at the same time.

Earthquake.

Quote

And he said, Tell me what is transacting upon the earth; for the earth labours, and is violently shaken.

Earthquake. And if we have to pretend that Noah was a real person then he'd apparently started in Mesopotamia and ended in Mesopotamia, as that's the area the story comes from. Considering that this isn't evidence of anything, least of all an impactor, then your point is what?

Quote

Your claim that it is part of a continuous cycle or that it was a gradual process is an unproven theory despite your efforts to promote it as a proven fact.

The multiple Bond Events and the Milankovitch Cycles support a continuous, gradual process and NOT a one-off impactor as you'd like to believe.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#7580    Otharus

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:19 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 15 November 2011 - 11:59 PM, said:

Who cares about why?
Good example of your mentality:

Just ignore things you don't understand.

Quote

And even Ottema translated it as "pilot's apprentice". APPRENTICE.
He did not:

[p.41]
de jongste scheepsjongens elk een derde deel

[p.43]
Zijn er ligtmatrozen verongelukt

(An 18th century term for this was "hooploper".)

Something to consider:
[OLB p.32]
ÉWA THÀT SÉIT SETMA THÉR BI ALLER MÀNNISKA ÉLIK AN HJARA MOD PRENTH SEND

Edited by Otharus, 16 November 2011 - 07:20 AM.


#7581    Otharus

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:38 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 12:05 AM, said:

Icelandic is a language of about a 1000 years old, and still taught in schools, because it is the language they use daily.
You think languages are as old as the oldest surviving written record of it.
They are of course much older than that and the result of a gradual evolutionary process.

Quote

I can read most of the OLB with only my knowledge of Middle Dutch
My point was that this does not prove anything.

Besides, you read the translation first.
You can't tell how much you would have understood without that.


#7582    Alewyn

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:00 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 12:42 AM, said:

I'd like to add: where is the geological proof lands rose up or submerged around that time? All these volcanoes erupting? Catastrophic floods? Fires burning for years? And all that in Europe, or around the North Sea or the Atlantic? In 2194 BC?
You want proof? Try this:

China
The extract of a paper written by Chun Chang Huang and others from the Department of Geography, Shaanxi Normal University, Xi’an, Shaanxi in the People’s Republic of China in 2010, Extraordinary floods related to the climatic event at 4200 a BP on the Qishuihe River, middle reaches of the Yellow River, China,:

A paleo-hydrological study was carried out in the Qishuihe River valley in the middle reaches of the Yellow River.
The results show that successive floods occurred between 4300 and 4000 a BP in association with the abrupt climatic event of 4200 a BP. These overbank floods had the riverbank settlement inundated repeatedly.
The climatic event of 4200 a BP and the climatic decline at 3100 a BP were believed to be characterized by droughts previously. This work provides solid evidence that both severe droughts and extreme floods were parts of the climatic variability during abrupt climatic event and climatic decline in the semi-arid to sub-humid zones over the world
.

We also have ample archaeological evidence of ancient Chinese cultures that were destroyed in c. 2200 BC.

The Caribbean
Dr. Sander R. Scheffers of the School for Environmental Management and Science at Southern Cross University, NSW, Australia, and others,  in an article, Tsunamis, hurricanes, the demise of coral reefs and shifts in pre-historic human populations in the Caribbean (Quaternary International, Volume 195, 15 February 2009, Pages 69-87):

Three extreme impacts with different magnitudes can be clearly distinguished. The youngest event occurred at approximately 500 BP, a second event at 3,100 BP, and the oldest at 4,200 BP (Scheffers, 2002; Scheffers et al. 2006).

Spain
Francisco Ruiz  from the Department of Geodynamics and Palaeontology, University of Huelva, Avda, Spain, and others, noted in the research article, Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain) (Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, Volume 229, Issue 3, 20 December 2005, Pages 212-229):

This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.

Sri Lanka
Ranasinghage, P. N et al in Signatures of Paleo-coastal Hazards in Back-barrier Environments of Eastern and Southeastern Sri Lanka (The Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System: American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2010, abstract #NH21A-1397):

The most recent pre-2004 tsunami event likely occurred around 1000 yrs BP with the older events around 4200 yrs BP and 4900 yrs BP.

The ~ 4200 and ~ 4900 yrs BP events were recorded in multiple cores from Kirind and Vakarai as well as in cores from Hambantota by Jackson (2008).


Syria, Palestine, Iraq & Egypt
Prof Harvey Weiss, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut (The Sciences, May/June 1996 P. 33,34)

Whether at Tell Leilan or Tell Taya, Chagar Bazar or Tell al-Hawa, the results told the same story: between 2200 and 1900 BC people fled the Habur and Assyrian plains en masse

In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, during which the great pyramids were built, gave way to the turmoil of the First Intermediate Period; in Palestine, Early Bronze Age towns were abandoned; in Mesopotamia Akkad collapsed and nomadic people made strange movements across and down the Euphrates and Tigris valleys.

Only decades after the city’s massive walls were raised, its religious quarter renovated and its grain production reorganized, Tell Leilan was suddenly abandoned. In our excavations, the collapsed remains of Akkadian buildings are covered with erosion deposits that show no trace of human activity


In collaboration with soil scientist and archaeologist Marie-Agnés Courty of the National Centre for Scientific Research in Paris, it was noted that the remains of the city (Tell Leilan) was covered with a thin layer of volcanic ash followed by some 200mm of fine sand. She found very little evidence of earthworm activity, which pointed to a prolonged period of aridity.

The Netherlands
Otto S. Knottnerus from Zuidbroek in the Netherlands wrote an article, Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, in the Wadden Sea Newsletter 2000 (No. 2). Of note was the following statement in the article:

Near Delfzijl (Netherlands), Neolithic settlers built a megalithic-chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC, the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat

North Africa
(Mentioned earlier)
The Potsdam-Institut fuer Klimafolgenforschung (Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research) in Germany, headed by Prof. Dr. Martin Claussen, analyzed climate feedbacks from the last several thousand years as reported in ScienceDaily

Before that time, the Sahara was covered by annual grasses and low shrubs, as evidenced by fossilized pollen.
The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.
The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.


In pre-historic times, Lake Yoa in North Eastern Chad was part of the greater Lake Megachad and then, about 4000 years ago, its waters suddenly turned salty (Scientific American, May 9, 2008: From Bountiful to Barren: Rainfall Decrease Left the Sahara Out to Dry - How a once-wet landscape became one of the world's great deserts. By Adam Hadhazy ).

This happened around the same time when the salt content of the ground increased at Tell Leilan in Syria, more than 2500 kilometres away. Scientists speculate that the cessation of fresh water recharge to the lake from rain or rivers and subsequent evaporation would have dramatically increased the salt content over the ensuing millennia. Archaeologists, however, noted that the salinity suddenly increased 4000 years ago. This was not a gradual process. Many of the lakes in North Africa today are salt-water lakes.

Do you still believe that the authors of the OLB dreamed up the catastrophe of 2193/12194 BC?


#7583    Otharus

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:05 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 12:30 AM, said:

Even the Nazis were convinced - eventually - that Wirth had been talking from a place where the sun never shines.
You are very naive.
As I pointed out before (twice), they had very good political reasons to reject it:

From Tex Frya's (the oldest 'laws'):

- don't give up your freedom
- don't take another's freedom
- don't start wars

BTW, Himmler apparently kept believing in OLB's authenticity till his death.

In the German speaking countries OLB is known as "Himmler's Bibel" (and this could very well be the reason why it is not popular there either...)

Quote

How did he know Wralda wasn't known to represent God in the 19th century? Because HE couldn't find an older source?
Obviously, your omniscient hoaxer was the only one who knew.

There has been an extensive discussion about OLB in the 19th century and nobody ever brought this most relevant fact up. That's how Wirth knew.

Quote

I'd like to tell you it was no one else but Puzzler who showed you it was known.
That's not correct. The very first time it was mentioned in this forum was in my post of 10 November 2010:

View PostOtharus, on 10 November 2010 - 03:00 PM, said:

There has been talk about how much of what is in OLB was already known to the 19th century elite.
...
Jensma (p. 92-93 of "De Gemaskerde God"):

"WR.ALDA is the most explicit character in the whole OLB. His name, that is used 96 times, is a great find in itself. 'Wralda is Oldfrisian for 'world', but the point in the word makes it possible to read the name as 'Oer.alda' - the 'over-old one', and possibly also as 'Oeral.da' - 'where-all there' (omnipresent)." (improvised translation by me)

(original text:) "WR.ALDA is het meest uitgewerkte personage uit het hele Oera Linda-boek. Zijn naam, die maar liefst 96 keer wordt genoemd, is op zichzelf al een vondst van formaat. 'Wralda is Oudfries voor 'wereld', maar de punt in het woord (in het OLBees staat WR.ALDA) maakt dat de naam ook kan worden gelezen als 'Oer.alda' - de 'oeroude', en mogelijk ook nog eens als 'Oeral.da' - 'Overal aanwezig'."

What Jensma did not know - or maybe he deliberately ignored it - is that varieties of the word Wralda exist in old Nordic archaeology, mythology, poetry in a similar context; and it does not only mean world...

1. Frey or Freyr, the twin-brother of Freya (and associated with fertility) is refered to as "Veraldar God".
2. In old-Laplandic the term "Weralden Olma" refers to what we would call God or Allah.
3. The creation myth of the poetic Edda starts with "Ar Var Alda"; first was old-one (or big wave, see video).
(4. I even dare suggest an etymological relationship between 'Alda' and 'Allah', but I don't even need this here to make my point.)

Prof. Dr. H. Wirth mentioned 1. and 2. in a newspaper article in 1925 (Leeuwarder Courant 31 october) and added:

"... the Ingvaeonic name for God, Wralda, that was not known to science in the time that the manuscript supposedly would have been created, and partly still isn't!" (improvised translation by me)

(original:) "... de Ingvaeonische naam voor God, Wralda, die in den tijd waarin het handschrift vervalscht zou moeten zijn, aan de wetenschap onbekend was en ten deele nog is!"

So if it takes almost 50 years for Dutch scholars to notice that Wralda does not only mean World, but in other old cultures was also used to refer to the oldest or most important deity or spirit, it is not likely that a few conspirors knew this and used it for their hoax. I find it reveiling that even present day Frisian expert Jensma did not seem to know this when he wrote his publications (or he ignored it, which would be even more suspect).

View PostAbramelin, on 16 November 2011 - 12:30 AM, said:

And why don't we read that nonsense you talk about in the OLB? Well, I do, but you don't, apparently.
I have no idea what you're referring to here.

Edited by Otharus, 16 November 2011 - 08:07 AM.


#7584    Alewyn

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:18 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 06:40 AM, said:

It DOES mean, however, that you're going to have to come up with something more substantial than "because the OLB says so".

And if we have to pretend that Noah was a real person then he'd apparently started in Mesopotamia and ended in Mesopotamia, as that's the area the story comes from. Considering that this isn't evidence of anything, least of all an impactor, then your point is what?

cormac
"Something more substantial":
See my previous post.

"Pretending that Noah was a real person":
So now we have independent hoaxes in Mesopotamia and the Netherlands? Funny that both, being hoaxes and unaware of each other, should tell exactly the same story and date from the same time.

This is exactly what Abramelin and Knull are doing. By declaring something a hoax or simply by going into denial, they hope that the evidence will go away. Well friend, it will not go away despite all your yapping at my heels.

Fortunately you and I are not the only ones reading this.


#7585    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:46 AM

Quote

So now we have independent hoaxes in Mesopotamia and the Netherlands?

Do you have evidence that Noah WAS a real person? And that the story of Noah's Flood WASN'T a reworking of the flood story of Utnapishtim? And that the flood story of Utnapishtim involved an impactor? And that evidence would be what?

Based on what you're using as 'evidence' I have evidence that there once was a warrior who travelled through the skies in a chariot pulled by two rams and wielded a hammer, which caused thunder and lightning. Guess we should start looking for him too. My source? The vikings said so!  :rolleyes:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#7586    Alewyn

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:46 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 16 November 2011 - 02:08 AM, said:

[i]Paleoenvironmental Data for Abrupt Climate Change:
The Workshop on Third Millennium BC Climate Change
and Old World Collapse
etc. etc.
Your last few posts contain some very powerful evidence in favour of the OLB's date of 2193 BC.
I am afraid, however, you will never convince the likes of Cormac, Abramelin and Knull. They are simply not able to challenge the status quo.


#7587    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:49 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 16 November 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Your last few posts contain some very powerful evidence in favour of the OLB's date of 2193 BC.
I am afraid, however, you will never convince the likes of Cormac, Abramelin and Knull. They are simply not able to challenge the status quo.

Nope, I'm just not able to pull an idea out of my butt and call it a fact.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#7588    Alewyn

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:55 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Do you have evidence that Noah WAS a real person? And that the story of Noah's Flood WASN'T a reworking of the flood story of Utnapishtim? And that the flood story of Utnapishtim involved an impactor? And that evidence would be what?

Based on what you're using as 'evidence' I have evidence that there once was a warrior who travelled through the skies in a chariot pulled by two rams and wielded a hammer, which caused thunder and lightning. Guess we should start looking for him too. My source? The vikings said so!  :rolleyes:

cormac
Yes. I have Biblical evidence that was penned down by numerous authors over thousands of years. Obviously you don't accept this.
So, now give us your evidence that he did not exist. Don't give us your opinion or gut-feel - that means nothing. A single proven source will suffice.

Having said that, look past the characters and names and concentrate on the description of the event; regardless of who wrote it.
It still matches the OLB's description. How do you explain this?

Edited by Alewyn, 16 November 2011 - 09:05 AM.


#7589    cormac mac airt

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:04 AM

Quote

Obviously you don't accept this.

You're right. Biblical stories are only evidence that the early Jews and later Christians believed it. That doesn't make them true.

Quote

So, now give us your evidence that he did not exist.

Outside of math, perhaps, you can't prove a negative. Not to mention that I'm not the one claiming these stories are real. And at their earliest the Biblical stories would only date to the last centuries BC while Israelites, as even a tribe, are unattested before 1207 BC. NONE of which supports your claim.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#7590    Alewyn

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 09:06 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2011 - 09:04 AM, said:

You're right. Biblical stories are only evidence that the early Jews and later Christians believed it. That doesn't make them true.



Outside of math, perhaps, you can't prove a negative. Not to mention that I'm not the one claiming these stories are real. And at their earliest the Biblical stories would only date to the last centuries BC while Israelites, as even a tribe, are unattested before 1207 BC. NONE of which supports your claim.

cormac
See my edit above

Edit.
I see that you, true to form, conveniently ignore the scientific evidence I gave to Abramelin re a global disaster in c. 2200 BC.

Edited by Alewyn, 16 November 2011 - 09:15 AM.