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Best Objection against Jesus' Resurrection -


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#1    markdohle

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:47 PM




#2    Likely Guy

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:36 AM

Sorry Mark, I don't do You-tube. In these day's a you-tube is worth a million blah-blahs.

I admire your spark, spirit and nature in the meanwhile. :)

/just relate what you mean in your own words!


#3    White Crane Feather

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:25 PM

I agree. I think the hallucination theory is silly.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#4    eight bits

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:46 PM

The video, which runs just under three minutes, shows Gary Habemas, answering a request for the "best" objection to the Resurrection, and how he refutes it.

He dodges the question, and answers instead about the "most frequent" objetcion in his experience. He describes this as the hallucination theory, but he never states the objection in a specific form. There is no way to assess the relevance of his refutations without a clear statement of what he is refuting.

Nor is it possible to "reverse engineer" the details of the objection from his refutations of it. They are all over the map. Some are appeals to the number of people, the varitey of personalities, and the different physical situations in which Jesus was seen. There is even a "meta objection," that Habermas can think of so many objections is itself evidence against the objection.

All of these factors come up in discussions of Fatima. Unless you believe that the Earth left solar orbit for a while and then returned later the same day, then you believe that hallucinations of the sort Habermas discusses have happened.

Fatima is an almost exclusively Roman Catholic miracle, since it involves Mary. On information and belief, Dr Habermas isn't a Roman Catholic. Apparently, then, evidence of the same sort that fails to convince Habermas that Mary rose from the dead and ascended into heaven does convince him that Jesus did those things. I have no idea how he distinguishes the two cases.

Another line of objection had to do with the psychology of the disciples on "Holy Saturday," but there are no sightings reported on that day. Habermas specifically mentions James and Paul. There is no report that James saw the resurrected Jesus, only that he took over his dead brother's business, not an unusual move. Paul is never reported to have seen the person of Jesus, just a voice. It's entirely possible that Paul wouldn't have recognized Jesus anyway.

There is also some discussion of the empty tomb as somehow arguing against the applicability of the hallucination objection, but it's altogether unclear what one has to do with the other. The tomb wasn't empty according to Mark, there was another living man in it when the women found it, wide open. Mark was the first Gospel. No other Gospel agrees with him; maybe the closest being the last Gospel, John. Mary Magdalene thought that the body had been removed from the tomb, according to John. Maybe she was right.

What has that to do with a bunch of people, many of whom are depicted as having a history of seeing things that others do not, seeing (or hearing) something that others didn't?

And if this isn't the best objection, Dr Habermas, then what is?

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#5    redhen

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:44 PM

"Best Objection against Jesus' Resurrection?"

Dead people don't usually come back to life.


#6    eight bits

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:30 AM

Quote

Dead people don't usually come back to life.

Yes, that would be my nominee for best objection as well. Bart Ehrman takes a lot of heat for his formulation of the principle, using it against miracles in general. He has gotten into some trouble in debate, because he is not facile with the math of probabilities. Nevertheless, his point is correct and the math does back him up.

And that's the difference between a "best objection" and a "most frequent objection," which Habermas & Company bait and switch in the OP video. The best objection is that any coherent natural explanation is more credible than supernatural revivification. However unlikely any one naturalistic alternative is, supernatural revivification is less likely than that. (Christians differ among themselves whether it has happened exactly once or exactly twice in all time.)

The most frequent objection is simply picking one from among the unboundedly many alternative coherent explanations, ignoring the rest, and pronouncing the chosen one to be unlikely. So, yes, (I'm guessing here about which objection Habermas chose, he was vague) a cluster of correlated hallucinations is very rare. So what? Revivification is rarer than that.

And compared with the probablility that some one among the many alternative possibilities occurred, the probability of revivification is vanishingly tiny.

The one and only basis for belief in the Resurrection is faith. If that is someone's faith, then that's fine with me. What I object to is schlock like the OP video, which tries to discredit unbelief by pretending that unbelief is anything except looking at the facts without faith's characteristic suspension of critical thought.

Edited by eight bits, 15 April 2013 - 08:33 AM.

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#7    White Crane Feather

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:01 PM

View Postredhen, on 14 April 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

"Best Objection against Jesus' Resurrection?"

Dead people don't usually come back to life.
You think!!!

Its funny aswell. If you read the bible, the reappearance of Christ fits well with modern peoples reactions to the death of charismatic figures.

Has anyone seen Elvis lately?

Also the other day I caught a rattlesnake at my kids school. It's next to a green belt. Now every day I spend about ten minutes poking the bushes where the kids get out and start to play.

Last week one of the kids that witnessed my catch, said he saw another one. He pointed out where it was. I had checked that spot thoroughly not 3 minutes before he got there after school. But then another kid said he saw one. Then a parent was on her phone texting and calling the office. Pretty soon there was yellow caution tape surrounding the whole area and like ten kids saw the rattle snake. I could do nothing but shake my head in amusement. People are just nuts.

Edited by Seeker79, 15 April 2013 - 03:04 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#8    GreenmansGod

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:02 PM

I kind of go along with the BS theory.   It is an allegory like so many other ancient hero stories, as in "Jason and the Argonauts"

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#9    White Crane Feather

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:06 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 15 April 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

I kind of go along with the BS theory.   It is an allegory like so many other ancient hero stories, as in "Jason and the Argonauts"
I'm inclined to think that way to, but the story is so typically human it's hard for me to doubt that the followers of a beloved teacher didn't go through some of these motions. To me it's a much more plausibly human story than a myth of ancient literature. It's just exaggerated like legends tend to be.

Edited by Seeker79, 15 April 2013 - 04:06 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#10    GreenmansGod

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:54 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 15 April 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm inclined to think that way to, but the story is so typically human it's hard for me to doubt that the followers of a beloved teacher didn't go through some of these motions. To me it's a much more plausibly human story than a myth of ancient literature. It's just exaggerated like legends tend to be.

Ever read about the story of the Buddha's death.  He died of old age in a grove of trees. The trees burst into bloom and rained flowers on his body. If the Jesus story is true then I guess that one is too.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#11    White Crane Feather

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:29 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 15 April 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:



Ever read about the story of the Buddha's death.  He died of old age in a grove of trees. The trees burst into bloom and rained flowers on his body. If the Jesus story is true then I guess that one is too.
Right. The legends that grow up around spiritual leaders are exotic.

That dosnt mean that their lives are complete fabrications just the "lightning bolts from their eyes and fire balls from arses" parts. :)

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#12    flbrnt

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:48 PM

Great men attract great legends. The convincing things about Jesus, Buddha and others is what they taught, not the stories. How sad we need fairy tales to make us take notice.


#13    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:33 AM

View Postredhen, on 14 April 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

"Best Objection against Jesus' Resurrection?"

Dead people don't usually come back to life.

Logical presupposition that miracles cannot occur and therefore backed on no logical grounds.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#14    redhen

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:22 AM

View PostAquilaChrysaetos, on 17 April 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

Logical presupposition that miracles cannot occur and therefore backed on no logical grounds.

I don't presume to know, a priori, that miracles cannot occur. For a working definition of miracle I use Hume's. I would have to accept a miracle as the best explanation if all other alternatives would be even more implausible.


#15    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:30 AM

View Postredhen, on 17 April 2013 - 01:22 AM, said:

I don't presume to know, a priori, that miracles cannot occur. For a working definition of miracle I use Hume's. I would have to accept a miracle as the best explanation if all other alternatives would be even more implausible.

Good. :) So please, thoroughly research the resurrection of Jesus Christ and notify me when you've accepted it's miraculous. :D :P

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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