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Israel airstrikes in Syria (confirmed)


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#46    Yamato

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 05:18 AM

View Postand then, on 01 February 2013 - 11:09 PM, said:

Actually, Israel has one of the best intel groups around and has NEVER wanted to go it alone in what they consider a truly existential threat from a nutjob regime. But since Oby is not going to help, Bibi finally admitted a couple days ago that Israel could severely damage Tehran's plans but only the US could make the damage enough to be worth the effort.  I don't believe the CT's about pipelines and takeovers and such.  But one has to be a bit of a dim bulb to just ignore the rhetoric and actions of the regime in Tehran over the past 3 decades.  A joint strike by Israel and the US - or just by the US and Iran's nuke facilities would be utterly ruined.  They would possess no navy of any kind and no airforce.  Any Republican Guards who were at home on the bases or who were clustered together densely would be enjoying their new time with virgins.  
On the other hand though..... Tel Aviv, Haifa and possibly even Jerusalem would be having thousands of funerals.  US embassies around the world as well as shops, bars, libraries and any other place Americans are known to congregate would become targets of opportunity for people who, while they've not declared war on anyone for a few hundred years, are pretty darned efficient at murder of innocents (practice makes perfect ) ... and then of course there would be the cells within the US that would be activated.  Nothing on the scale of 9-11 I think, but far more terrorizing due to the widespread randomness.  A mall here, an airliner there, a Lakers game.... you get the picture.  The Swiss cheese security we have would be really embarrassing for homeland security.  I can only imagine what freedoms they'd want next to promise us security.
No, I really don't think Israel wants war with Iran.  I KNOW America doesn't.  But we didn't want WWI or WWII either.
Israel is all about defying international law and going rogue.   They're the poster child of unilateralism.   Israel is a militarized police state, what it values is opposed to any America I would ever consider tolerating.   We are not the United States of Israel.  We didn't have a single Zionist Jew found our country.   We have a separation of church and state and we can't make exceptions to that because someone has a special oil interest wrapped up in Jewish wrapping paper 7,000 miles away from this country.   Yes we shower Israel in special treatment, but subsidizing something so deranged and anti-American makes no sense.   The Holocaust guilt trip has about another 10 years or so and it's not going to work on our people anymore, despite how valiantly some nuttier Americans are allowing their kids to be indoctrinated by Zionist propaganda.

The history is crystal clear.  The US saved Europe from Nazi aggression and Stalinist ambition.  For what little gratitude a bankrupt Europe has left, we're the last people on earth that should wear Holocaust guilt on our consciences.  Israel should be sending us billion dollar checks every year to thank us for saving the white European transplants who grew up into these little Nazis today, not the other way around.

Israel has been lying about Iran for years now and they're still at it.   We've got the economic clamps down on Iran based on those lies, and it seems to me we have convinced our Israeli puppets that it's necessary to strangle a power the size of Iran for a long time before we attempt military attacks.   The bombing campaign of Iran would follow years of crippling sanctions and would necessarily be much longer and larger than other nations we've shamelessly bombed.   So the end of the rainbow ground invasion and how many troops would be necessary is a nice discussion for someone who would actually consider such a nut idea.  Who knows how many Iranians are losing their lives over our statist force control of free markets.  

As I've said numerous times since late 2010, and as "Bibi" has only now admitted today, Israel wasn't going to attack Iran because their military is impotent to do any meaningful damage whatsoever.  They need US power for that, and who knows what evil the twin nutters Obama and Netanyahu have agreed to behind closed doors.  Markets should be free, not in chains.  When trade ends, war begins.   These sanctions are an act of war on Iran who has done nothing to deserve them.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#47    and then

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:59 AM

Fear the 7 million!  They want to take over the world.....  :w00t:    Or maybe, just maybe, they'd only like to live in peace ON THEIR OWN LAND.  

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
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#48    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:32 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 01 February 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

:lol:
Thank you, Aten.
You see, there’s this horrible historic forgery attempt, being peddled lately by extreme nationalist Serbian circles – they wish to make Chetniks suddenly anti-fascists, which is, of course, impossible, since there are vast archives of photos of Chetniks kissing German butts in WWII, complete with Serbian “prince” Pavle riding in Mercedes with Hitler himself. How anti-fascist of him.
So it’s nice to hear you know Chetniks were fascist collaborators, much like Ustashe.
Their attempt to switch sides by the end of WWII was successful, unlike Ustashe attempt to switch sides and join the Allies. Ustashe were physically exterminated, Chetniks pardoned and incorporated into Tito's partisan units. Thanks to both Churchill and Stalin. And that was the beggining of ex-Yugoslavia's end.

Now, I obviously love to comb through WWII, but shouldn’t we go back to Syria?
There’s WWIII about to break out there, certainly that’s a good excuse to leave Serbian princes and their undying shame alone for a moment?
No WWIII about to happen because of Syria, or Iran. There are people who post here who are intelligent and informed, yet some have blind spots and are rather disingenuous, particulary about Russia interests in the region. Russia has very good relations with Israel, and in recent years IDF has been to Russia to take part in major military exercises, not something ever granted to Syria. Russia is genuinely trying to be an honest broker in this tragedy, yet malicious people in west constantly poison minds with obfuscation and total lies because they have some neanderthal cold war atavistic hatred of Russia. Possible to tell these people here because they simply scream anti-Russian nonsense without offering any rational argument. It has been clear to me for some time that some posters here want blood and death in Syria. To paint Assad as a new Hitler is childish, and to support, seemingly without any intelligent thought to the matter, obvious terrorists, is disgusting given that some of these "freedom fighters" will happily kill you in your bed. Short terminism and knee jerk stupidy seem to rule here. BTW, because you and I, and a few others here know history of Balkans, does not mean others do. So, perhaps in interests of reality you should have explained who Ustashe and Chetniks were, and who Tito was. And just what, in this photo, were those two discussing? ........ You paint black and white picture, but all was grey splashed with red of blood.
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#49    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:13 PM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 02 February 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

No WWIII about to happen because of Syria, or Iran. There are people who post here who are intelligent and informed, yet some have blind spots and are rather disingenuous, particulary about Russia interests in the region. Russia has very good relations with Israel, and in recent years IDF has been to Russia to take part in major military exercises, not something ever granted to Syria. Russia is genuinely trying to be an honest broker in this tragedy, yet malicious people in west constantly poison minds with obfuscation and total lies because they have some neanderthal cold war atavistic hatred of Russia. Possible to tell these people here because they simply scream anti-Russian nonsense without offering any rational argument. It has been clear to me for some time that some posters here want blood and death in Syria. To paint Assad as a new Hitler is childish, and to support, seemingly without any intelligent thought to the matter, obvious terrorists, is disgusting given that some of these "freedom fighters" will happily kill you in your bed. Short terminism and knee jerk stupidy seem to rule here. BTW, because you and I, and a few others here know history of Balkans, does not mean others do. So, perhaps in interests of reality you should have explained who Ustashe and Chetniks were, and who Tito was. And just what, in this photo, were those two discussing? ........ You paint black and white picture, but all was grey splashed with red of blood.
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This post of yours is nice example why I don’t want Russia meddling in my part of the world in any conceivable way.

You are willing to call it all grey because it suits you, not because it actually is all grey.
How can an aggression on sovereign country be grey on both sides? How can disparity (Serbs armed to their teeth and everyone else with pitchforks or home-made guns) be grey?
Ex-Yugoslavia is clear as day, no grey areas. There was the aggressor, Serbia, and there were the attacked, Croatia and Bosnia&Herzegovina.

The very fact that we have been able to win proves who was in wrong – aggressions rarely succeed, while justified defence is almost always unbreakable, though it sometimes takes long time to get rid of the aggressor. Or inept leaders like the guy in the photo was.

You might want Serbian expansionism accepted as something benign, but wishful thinking won’t change the facts, now proven by ICTY in Hague too.
Note that Croats involved in crimes linked to attempts to break B&H were sentenced, while Croats who defended their own country were cleared of charges. Which brings me to Tuđman *rolleyes* who was doing everything wrong, whose party robbed Croatia undisturbed by war, hiding behind verbal-only patriotism.

I see either ignorance of the actual situation, either deliberate malevolence in attempt to reduce Croatian cause to Tuđman.
Who was he, except the wrong man in the wrong place in the wrong time? My grandmother could have led the country better than him, and his clumsy, old school Stalinist way of thinking is the only reason why Serbia almost squeezed some gain out their expansionist attempts.
Old communist general whose blunders are recognized and scorned by general public in Croatia. Is it the same across the border, in Serbia? Can average Serb reject the politics of Milosevic that is still their official stance?

In short, Aten, you can come to my house as a guest, but if you are coming armed, singing “Milosevic, send us salad, we’ll take care of meat, we will slaughter Croats” you bet I won’t call it grey and accept it peacefully.
I will also not accept silly ideas of small political body still existing in Croatia, mostly comprised of B&H born citizens, who wish to pact with Serbs in order to split B&H in half. No. Their home towns are in B&H and that will stay that way. Better luck in next reincarnation, but my country will not make aggressor of herself to suit their complexes.
What a perverted idea.  

I guess now you have clearer picture of the situation and therefore you might begin to realize you shouldn’t think the fringe opinion of one guy you have met on UM is the official and widely accepted political stance in Croatia. It is exactly the opposite.  
General population in Croatia is not interested in expansionism and our capital is Zagreb, not Mostar. Croatia will never enter deals with expansionist Serbia and she will never be part of Russian sphere of influence. Some people from Herzegovina could be bribed with prospect of Herzegovina being annexed by Croatia, but there are still more Croatian Croats to decide upon Croatian borders and pacts.
Croatia is NATO member and we are about to finally enter the EU, soon enough. That is the will of the very convincing majority of Croatian citizens in real life, so you can rest occasional internet oddities aside.


Ustashe and Chetniks, since you insist, started as patriotic resistance movements but both evolved into sinister, ultra-nationalist paramilitary organizations that chose wrong side to pact with in WWII.
Ustashe were actually pushed by Mussolini’s Italy while Chetniks were British baby, since they were Serbian royalists. And that’s why it couldn’t possibly end up well, since Serbian “kings” are invention of old school British politics, not real nobility with any real backup to their claims of territories outside Serbia, plus their claim on very Serbia is more than dubious, but I call it internal Serbian matter. If they want imaginary kings back, it’s their problem, thank god and NATO, not mine.

The absolute historic delicacy is the Chetnik collaboration with the Nazis, if you bear in mind they were the British favourites. Another hilarious fact is Stalin’s choice of Serbs because of the Orthodox connection. It’s so utterly insane you simply cannot crowbar it in officially accepted history versions.
And to make it more interesting, there comes Tito, leader of communists, simple peasant child who played piano, spoke foreign languages better than his own mother’s tongue, who was deemed retarded by his former KuK officers, establishes insanely good connections with the British and sweeps the royalist competition away.
Only one small concession he had to make: the Serbian dominance in his future quasi-socialist conglomerate kingdom... err... federation.
Ex-Yugoslavia was the cat flap in the Iron Curtain, no wonder many miss it even today, for purely sentimental reasons. “Back in my day, when everything was upside-down...” Well, not any more. Svaka sila za vremena. (Each force only for a while.)  


What is has to do with Syria?
Philosophically everything, practically nothing.

So there’s Syria with majority that doesn’t want Assad anymore. I expect Russia to finish their bargaining process already and remove him. I understand it’s sensitive area, important client etc. but it has to come to an end already.
I see possibility of WWIII not because Russia is involved, but because everyone is involved, meaning there are too many sides in the field, each with its own interests that – of course – are overlapping and clashing.
I trust there are talks and negotiations away from public eyes and I hope these will yield results soon. What worries me is the possibility of unsynchronized one-sided actions that could escalate and make the conflict even more complicated and uncontrolled.
So far it was controlled, sadly.  

I believe geostrategic matters have nothing to do with the moral principles (see the ex-Yu example to understand why I think the way I do), so you don’t have to froth about hated Russia, your country is not good or evil since countries possess no anthropomorphic qualities in my opinion, Russia is simply political and economic entity involved in the situation.
If it was only up to Russia, it would end by now, I suppose.
But it’s not, luckily for Syrians, because for some dictators, Milosevics and Assads, word “peace” apparently can mean the peace of graveyards.




Edit: aw, what a typo :lol: "What it has to do with Syria?", obviously.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 02 February 2013 - 01:12 PM.

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#50    and then

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:48 PM

This: I see possibility of WWIII not because Russia is involved, but because everyone is involved, meaning there are too many sides in the field, each with its own interests that – of course – are overlapping and clashing.
I trust there are talks and negotiations away from public eyes and I hope these will yield results soon. What worries me is the possibility of unsynchronized one-sided actions that could escalate and make the conflict even more complicated and uncontrolled.
So far it was controlled, sadly.  

IMO you have explained the problem as accurately and succinctly as can be done.  The danger is that Russia will miscalculate in their maneuvering and another actor will blow the whole thing up unexpectedly.  ENOUGH already!  Damn whoever is playing with these poor people's lives.  And I DO mean ANYONE  -including my own government.

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#51    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:24 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 02 February 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

You might want Serbian expansionism accepted as something benign, but wishful thinking won’t change the facts, now proven by ICTY in Hague too.
Note that Croats involved in crimes linked to attempts to break B&H were sentenced, while Croats who defended their own country were cleared of charges. Which brings me to Tuđman *rolleyes* who was doing everything wrong, whose party robbed Croatia undisturbed by war, hiding behind verbal-only patriotism.

I support Serbs about Kosovo, that is all. You seem to have convinced yourself that I am a Serb, or have decided that on this forum I am some Serb apologist for you to fire at. This is ridiculous, and you make yourself seem foolish. I have no quarrel with Croats or Slovenes, why should I?. I never here said one word in support of Milosevic etc. You have your opinion based on your nationality, you make many comments that are simply opinion, and nobody on this forum has put hand up and said you are not right in everything you say. You have had a soft ride here and clearly do not like any other veiw expressed. I see the situation from outside perspective, and am not biased. You are very biased and your comments should be taken with huge heap of salt by all here. You are lucky this is English forum and many posters here do not know some realities about other countries except propaganda from their politicians, media and such as you. You have tied yourself in knots about Ustashe and Chetniks, and Tudman, and I think others here who know reality will be laughing at your comments. You are blinkered, I suggest you remove the veil from your eyes....

When Syria has collapsed in a sea of blood and chaos, and becomes a terrorist hell, will you be satisfied? after all, presumably Assad will then be dead, and that is all that counts, isn't it? And when Christians are massacred, will you jump for joy? after all, they support Assad, so they must deserve death, mustn't they? And when the terrorists launch missiles against Israel from the rubble of what was syria, then you will applaud, because it doesn't matter does it, for Assad wlil be dead, and all others can go to hell I suppose. You people never heard of unintended consequences? never heard of realpolitik? You all seem like turkeys voting for Christmas

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 02 February 2013 - 01:32 PM.


#52    Yes_Man

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

Serbs are fascists they beat up anyone  who isn't a Serb.


#53    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:22 PM

:lol: Aten... thank you for all the wonderful opportunities you keep creating, for me to make my points and for you to instantly prove them :D
Check any fact I've stated :yes:  I'm sure that research will lead you to an outright revelation.  



View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 02 February 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Serbs are fascists they beat up anyone  who isn't a Serb.

Not Serbs in general, there are great people over there in Serbia, only those primitive ultra-nationalists among them are royalist pain in the ass.


Speaking of which, I owe short Kosovo digest. Here it is:
Unfortunately, and Aten should pay attention to that, current president of Serbia is sworn Chetnik vojvoda. That means he belongs to archaic movement that is thoroughly intolerant and violent, and their goal is uniting “all Serbian lands into one”. According to them, Serbian land is each land “where one Serbian grave could be found.”
Their prime-minister was nick-named “mali Sloba” (Slobodan, meaning “little Milosevic”). Though he's not formally high ranked Chetnik, his party is the source of the whole revisionist plague in Serbia.  
These are the people who cannot recognize Kosovo because they came to power though violent ultra-nationalist rhetoric, that sadly is still passable in Serbia, but at the same time they are aware Serbia has no means to keep any occupied territories by force anymore. And they certainly can’t sweet-talk anyone anymore into any form of union with them. (How come no one wanted to stay in the same country with holy Serbia? Not even Montenegro, known as "the other eye of the same head" :lol: where head is the Greater Serbia, now with only one eye and less and less territory after each aggression they attempt.)

So they beg for at least the secession of part of Kosovo, to achieve the old Slavic goal of being promiscuous and chaste at the same time. Not to translate that proverb literally.  
And they would like to collect some sympathies for their ethnically cleansed cause by appealing on their huge Christianity while some Albanians are Muslim.
  
I’d rather have sane Muslim friend than Christian murder by my side. Especially since true Christian would not kill to steal my refrigerator, which was common practice of Serbian forces in the last war.




Edit: Back to Syria, people, seriously, the obvious Milosevic-Assad parallel was covered, let’s move on.
Aten can start a separate thread about Serbian woes.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 02 February 2013 - 02:26 PM.

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#54    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:38 PM

View Postand then, on 02 February 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Fear the 7 million!  They want to take over the world.....  :w00t:    Or maybe, just maybe, they'd only like to live in peace ON THEIR OWN LAND.  

If only it were true that they want to live 'on their own land'.


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Posted 02 February 2013 - 04:09 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 02 February 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

If only it were true that they want to live 'on their own land'.
I assume you are speaking of the homes, land and businesses stolen from them prior to and after WWII?  The property they were thrown off of after 1948?  But then we never hear about THAT aspect of the tragedy of Palestine.  No, it's only the people that Jews displaced for whom we must cry.

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#56    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 05:27 PM

View Postand then, on 02 February 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I assume you are speaking of the homes, land and businesses stolen from them prior to and after WWII?  The property they were thrown off of after 1948?  But then we never hear about THAT aspect of the tragedy of Palestine.  No, it's only the people that Jews displaced for whom we must cry.

While still not completely just, Jews were (and still are being) paid money for their losses. How much have the displaced Palestinians been paid?

I was referring to the land that is being actively stolen, every day. And has been, bit by bit, for over half a century.


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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:34 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 02 February 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

While still not completely just, Jews were (and still are being) paid money for their losses. How much have the displaced Palestinians been paid?

I was referring to the land that is being actively stolen, every day. And has been, bit by bit, for over half a century.
I don't justify the thefts that are occurring today - nor any true thefts from the past.  But I don't consider land that was occupied as a result of defending oneself in war as a theft.  It is true that a substantial portion of Israelis consider all of Judea (funny name that) and Samaria to be Jewish by right and so they will build on it because they feel justified.  I personally believe they are correct in that assumption but I also realize that we live in a modern world where the Bible and it's tenets have largely become a joke and irrelevant to most people.  I expect all that to change quite shortly but that is a different issue.  That aside however, I have said long that the people of the state of Israel have a right to the land that the mandate gave them.  It is the responsibility of the Palestinians and their intransigence on accepting a small Jewish state in their midst that leads us to this point.  IF they would sit down and compromise on giving up right of return - perhaps with monetary compensation - and allow Jerusalem to be an international city where they could locate their official capitol then the actual borders could be worked out without too much chaos.  Everyone would have to have equal rights to the water of course.  And unless a general war in the region starts before March, I expect the EU to push both sides to a table and hammer out just such a deal.  The timing and the politics in Israel are perfect right now for such a deal.  The Hamas/PA/Fatah et. al. smell this and will be willing to grab what they can before starting the next round of shelling.  I am as confident of their renewed aggression as I am the sun rising tomorrow.  WHEN they start with the rockets and the rhetoric from their new and improved firing points however, it is my sincere hope that Israel will finally put paid to the negotiation route and then proceed to sweep these warmongering haters from their midst once and for all time.  This scenario would be just.  Only a person who truly does not care about justice could try to gainsay that.

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#58    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:33 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 02 February 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Aten can start a separate thread about Serbian woes.
Which shows your deliberate misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my posts. You have lied about Kosovo, and you know it. Anybody can google the history and see your lies and obfuscations laid bare. You are obsessed with Serbia, so take your complaints and ranting to any Serbs here, not me, I'm not a Serb, and your rants and insults mean nothing to me.

Yesterday Sergei Lavrov said that any military intervention in Syria is unaceptable. Biden cannot even bring himself to agree with such a statement. But what else to expect from a country of hypocrites and immoralists whose only purpose is global financial domination. Russia speaks about stabilty and dialogue, US and it's pathetic poodles like only war and blood, and the $$$ they make from death and misery.


#59    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:03 AM

View PostAtentutankh-pasheri, on 03 February 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Which shows your deliberate misunderstanding and misrepresentation of my posts. You have lied about Kosovo, and you know it. Anybody can google the history and see your lies and obfuscations laid bare. You are obsessed with Serbia, so take your complaints and ranting to any Serbs here, not me, I'm not a Serb, and your rants and insults mean nothing to me.

Yesterday Sergei Lavrov said that any military intervention in Syria is unaceptable. Biden cannot even bring himself to agree with such a statement. But what else to expect from a country of hypocrites and immoralists whose only purpose is global financial domination. Russia speaks about stabilty and dialogue, US and it's pathetic poodles like only war and blood, and the $$$ they make from death and misery.


:sleepy:

Yeah, yeah, holy Serbia, holy Russia, evil all around you, the perfect ones, evil US makes bucks from death and misery, while holy Russia has only "defence contractors", not arms dealers :lol:

And the facts will go away if you point at others and scream "hypocrisy" :lol: First take the profiteering plank out of your own eye, then you'll see clearly to remove the oil speck from your brothers eye. Or something like that.

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#60    Zaphod222

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:34 AM

View PostI believe you, on 31 January 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Syrians need to end their civil conflict, join sides, and defend themselves against Israel.

Ridiculous. The Syrian conflict is a power struggle between the Sunnis and the Alavite Assad regime.
Israel simply wants to stay alive, and prevent chemical weapons from reaching the Hizbollah.
Gee, what a crime.

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