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[Merged] Proof of Heaven


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#106    libstaK

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:46 AM

View Postmonk 56, on 20 October 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Hi LibstaK,

You had better have a word to your government then, a lot of mystical societies tend to think of Sirius and Alnilam as heaven, and indeed Australia's Federation Day of 1st January 1901 in Sydney was aligned to Sirius and Alnilam!

http://www.abc.net.a...s/fev_inaug.htm

Love the Australian Coin below ha ha:-

http://www.australia...er/200131oz.htm
Oh so Australia really is "God's country" :P , well most Aussies would agee B)

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#107    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 11:53 AM

Perhaps an analogy will help. I might have missed something when I came up with this but I think it works:

Imagine an airtight empty building the size of the Houston Astrodome made of fiberglass. Imagine inside being zero gravity. Now imagine it filled with iron particles that float around it.

That iron represents consciousness.

In the center of the Astrodome is a massive electronic magnet that is powered by electricity. That magnet itself is the brain, and the electricity is the blood (or the "life" energy however you wish to think of it). When the electromagnet is switched on all the iron immediately comes and fastens itself to the magnet.

The consciousness (the iron) is now located in the "brain" (the magnet) and will be retained by the brain (magnet) as long as the brain (magnet) is "alive." The moment the switch is flipped and the "blood" (electricity) stops feeding the "brain" (magnet), the "brain" (magnet) is "dead" (shut off) and "consciousness" (iron particles) drifts off to other places.

The idea of the iron "filling the void" of the Astrodome is because that is what higher paths of mysticism teach, and many near-death experiences hint at (many say they felt "one with the universe" or that "all living things are one").

My guess is that this didn't make it any clearer, and likely made it worse, lol, but I figured I'd give it a shot.  :)


#108    joc

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:09 PM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 22 October 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I hate to quote Wikipedia on anything but it was the quickest in this case so here goes:



"Blood" does not produce consciousness. The ONLY question is whether it is the brain that produces that consciousness, or the brain merely houses that consciousness while we are "in the body" (alive), with the brain directing that consciousness through it's various functions.

This entire thread is arguing that consciousness is separate from the brain and that once the "housing" (the functioning brain) is removed from the equation, then that consciousness leaves the brain and moves on to other, higher realms.

Blood plays no part in consciousness, other than in keeping the brain working and either:

1) "Housing" that consciousness as long as it is working (and that consciousness moves on after it stops working),

or

2) Creating that consciousness and keeping it active only as long as the brain is working.

The only question here is whether that consciousness is always confined to the human brain or is, in fact, only temporarily confined to it as long as the brain is functioning.

Blood isn't related to consciousness in any other way than, if you believe option number 2, it helps keep that brain functioning. Blood is no more important than the liver or pancreas, etc. In those cases, as well as with the blood, if you removed them the brain stops functioning. The only question then is whether or not consciousness then ceases or continues in a different form.


.
Wikipedia?  Really?  Okay.  I just have a different mind set I guess.  I tend to think outside of the 'general information box'.  
Consciousness isn't something produced by the brain...it is something that just Is.   When we are in a conscious state...it means we are aware of our surroundings and processing information in real time...but Consciousness exists without the body, without the brain.   That being said...

The only question here is whether that consciousness is always confined to the human brain or is, in fact, only temporarily confined to it as long as the brain is functioning.

I have other questions.  Again, we have a corpse and we have living oxygenated blood.  Now, we all know that blood can be frozen, and re transfused into a living patient.  But how do we know that if it is living and oxygenated that it is not experiencing consciousness?  Without the blood...the brain doesn't function.  Yet, without the brain, the blood can function.  So, I am not convinced that blood is not aware.
As far as that goes, I am not convinced that the 'corpse' on the table is not aware either.
This is all trying to be explained through 'scientific' studies.  And while they are exhaustive...they are not by any means the final word.

Pehaps the blood IS the living entity.  Perhaps the blood is not just the carrier of nutrients and oxygen to the brain.  Perhaps the soul purpose of the body and brain is to house the Blood.   There are many other questions...but I will just say now that the studies are inconclusive.  

I remember a study done back in the 70s.  A line of people walk by plants connected to an EKG type device.  One person burned the plant with a cigarette lighter....the EKG needle responded accordingly.   Then, the same line of people walked by the same plant.  No one had a cigarette lighter, but, when the person who had burned the plant walked by, the EKG needle reacted the same as when the plant had been burned.  This would make one consider the possibility that plants experience conscious awareness.

I just had a wild thought.  What if...the 'other side' is the actual 'real world' and we are numb to it by our addiction to oxygen?  And what part does Gravity play in Conscious Awareness?
There are other questions.

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#109    White Crane Feather

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:21 PM

a receiver of conciousness. Much like a radio tuned in.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#110    joc

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:27 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

a receiver of conciousness. Much like a radio tuned in.
yep...btw...any one who quotes Bruce Lee is a friend of mine! :yes:

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#111    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 01:50 PM

View Postjoc, on 22 October 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Wikipedia?  Really?  Okay.  I just have a different mind set I guess.  I tend to think outside of the 'general information box'.


As i said, i used it because it happened to be the very first link and Google showed the first few lines and they happened to be what I knew virtually every other source of the definition would be, and i didn't want to search for "Stanford University's" definition just to make it somehow seem more relevant. It would have been the same thing.

If you believe there is a different definition then you are free to search for it. I already knew what the definition was and was only getting it because you didn't seem to understand what consciousness meant..


View Postjoc, on 22 October 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Consciousness isn't something produced by the brain...it is something that just Is.   When we are in a conscious state...it means we are aware of our surroundings and processing information in real time...but Consciousness exists without the body, without the brain.


If consciousness exists without the body, then it obviously exists without the blood too.


View Postjoc, on 22 October 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:


I have other questions.  Again, we have a corpse and we have living oxygenated blood.  Now, we all know that blood can be frozen, and re transfused into a living patient.  But how do we know that if it is living and oxygenated that it is not experiencing consciousness?  Without the blood...the brain doesn't function.  Yet, without the brain, the blood can function.


Blood "functions" only by the fact that it is not "dead." A liver can also "function" without the brain as can a heart or kidney or anything else that can be put in another living human being. Heck, the recent 'transplant" of a face show that a face can still function without a brain. Skin grafts are almost the same thing as blood transfusions.


View Postjoc, on 22 October 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:


Pehaps the blood IS the living entity.  Perhaps the blood is not just the carrier of nutrients and oxygen to the brain.  Perhaps the soul purpose of the body and brain is to house the Blood.   There are many other questions...but I will just say now that the studies are inconclusive.  



Well, belief that if you wish. As i said before that is crazy and would take too long to counter and would be a colossal waste of time to try. If you are enamored with that idea then that's great. I'm not looking to win any arguments. I am only looking to add to this discussion wherever I might prove to have something to add. Talking about blood having consciousness is definitely not worth my spending any more time on.


View Postjoc, on 22 October 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I just had a wild thought.  What if...the 'other side' is the actual 'real world' and we are numb to it by our addiction to oxygen?  And what part does Gravity play in Conscious Awareness?
There are other questions.


Short answers that echo my personal convictions and those of countless accomplished mystics throughout history (so take them or leave them as you wish):

The "other side" IS the "real word" (which is why almost all near-death experiencers describe a "hyper-reality" that makes our existence here seem like a dream rather than reality). And "addiction to oxygen" plays no part other than until we stop breathing we will never understand that (unless "death" is experienced prior to that via NDE or mystical pursuits).

"Gravity" has nothing to do with consciousness.


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View PostSeeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

a receiver of conciousness. Much like a radio tuned in.

View PostSeeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

a receiver of conciousness. Much like a radio tuned in.


Exactly.


#112    joc

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:44 PM

Quote

Shabd Mystic' timestamp='1350913811' post='4512130']


As i said, i used it because it happened to be the very first link and Google showed the first few lines and they happened to be what I knew virtually every other source of the definition would be, and i didn't want to search for "Stanford University's" definition just to make it somehow seem more relevant. It would have been the same thing.

I usually do the same thing when I don't know what a word means....






Quote

If consciousness exists without the body, then it obviously exists without the blood too.
Yes, most defintitely.  I wasn't meaning to put forth the notion that blood is Consciousness...merely the thought that blood is the 'living entity' and the body is just a host for the blood.  I'm not saying that is what I believe...I am just speculating on the possibility.





Quote

Blood "functions" only by the fact that it is not "dead." A liver can also "function" without the brain as can a heart or kidney or anything else that can be put in another living human being. Heck, the recent 'transplant" of a face show that a face can still function without a brain. Skin grafts are almost the same thing as blood transfusions.

You mention the liver, and skin grafts, etc.  These cannot live without the blood.  The blood obviously can live without the body.  When the blood dies...everything else dies along with it.  But specifically in the case where the woman's blood is being kept alive while her body undergoes death is what I am talking about.  I seriously doubt that if they had transfused her corpse with frozen blood, oxygenated and run through tubes at the correct temperature that she would have survived.  I am just speculating on all of this.  Questioning out of the box...which is the exercise of the video itself.



Quote

Well, belief that if you wish. As i said before that is crazy and would take too long to counter and would be a colossal waste of time to try. If you are enamored with that idea then that's great. I'm not looking to win any arguments. I am only looking to add to this discussion wherever I might prove to have something to add. Talking about blood having consciousness is definitely not worth my spending any more time on.
It may sound crazy.  But if blood doesn't have consciousness, then plants don't have consciousness, earth worms don't have consciousness, because none of these have a brain.


Quote



Short answers that echo my personal convictions and those of countless accomplished mystics throughout history (so take them or leave them as you wish):

The "other side" IS the "real word" (which is why almost all near-death experiencers describe a "hyper-reality" that makes our existence here seem like a dream rather than reality). And "addiction to oxygen" plays no part other than until we stop breathing we will never understand that (unless "death" is experienced prior to that via NDE or mystical pursuits).
Again, I am just speculating on thoughts that come into my mind.  I am not saying this is what I believe.

Quote

"Gravity" has nothing to do with consciousness.
Have you ever really considered that question before?  Neither had I until it came across my conscious awareness as a thought.   The entire Universe has one thing in common...gravity.  As a 'mystic' you at times seem rather closed minded on topics that don't fit your belief system.  Not criticizing...just saying.



Quote


Posted ImageSeeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

a receiver of conciousness. Much like a radio tuned in.
Posted ImageSeeker79, on 22 October 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

a receiver of conciousness. Much like a radio tuned in.


Exactly.


Pretty much what I believe.  Consciousness is.  There is only one thing that really exists.  Energy.  Infinite Energy.  Infinite Energy IS Consciousness...and it manifests itself, in an infinite number of forms, on an infinite number of levels, for an infinite number of reasons.   When we exist as humans, we exist as Infinite Energy manifested in the form of a human being.  The drops of rain, the ocean, the air, the stars, the space between the stars...all Energy...all Consciousness.  How can you know that the rock beside the road, even the road itself has Awareness?  Because it is.  It is because it has been manifested out of the pool of infinite potential by Infinite Energy.

Edited by joc, 22 October 2012 - 05:50 PM.

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#113    monk 56

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:16 PM

Hi libstaK,

Indeed Australia is a beautiful country, and generally uneffected by the religious wars of Europe, if you want to delve into its esoteric history with astronomy about Federation Day in Sydney, please scroll down link below to thread section #38:-

http://www.unexplain...ic=232340&st=30

The most esoteric part to live in Australia is probably around the area of Childers, Queensland, being the Shire of Isis, link below:-

http://en.wikipedia....i/Shire_of_Isis

Love the logo, link below ha ha:-

http://en.wikipedia...._shire_logo.png


#114    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:30 AM

Hey Joc,

Sorry if my last post seemed a bit "brisk." I haven't been feeling well today and I was hurrying to finish. I didn't mean to be rude.


#115    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:32 AM

Analysis of Atheists' NDE's

Quote

When the famous English novelist, Somerset Maugham, was expiring in France, aged 91, he summoned the world-class atheist, A.J. Ayer, like a priest to his deathbed, to reassure him that there was no afterlife. Professor Ayer duly delivered the words of consolation Maugham longed to hear.

But when Ayer himself was dying two decades later, he wasn't so sure. Having choked on a piece of smoked salmon that stopped his heart for at least four minutes, the famed philosopher saw, and heard things he had spent a lifetime denying.

On his return from he knew not where, Ayer wrote a chagrined but enigmatic account of what has become known in Britain and beyond as Near Death Experience.

...

For much more follow the above link ...


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#116    joc

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:44 AM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 23 October 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Hey Joc,

Sorry if my last post seemed a bit "brisk." I haven't been feeling well today and I was hurrying to finish. I didn't mean to be rude.
Hope you are feeling better.  :)

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#117    joc

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:54 AM

View Postjoc, on 23 October 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Hope you are feeling better.  :)
From the article: he found 100 per cent of people calling themselves atheists had experienced "tremendous ecstasy".

Tremendous ecstasy!  They all have one thing in common.   They all were 'dead' so to speak...meaning their brain went through extreme trauma...and they returned, all experiencing, Tremendous Ecstasy.  The brain flooded with endorphins and dopamine I would gather.

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#118    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:17 PM

View Postjoc, on 23 October 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

From the article: he found 100 per cent of people calling themselves atheists had experienced "tremendous ecstasy".

Tremendous ecstasy!  They all have one thing in common.   They all were 'dead' so to speak...meaning their brain went through extreme trauma...and they returned, all experiencing, Tremendous Ecstasy.  The brain flooded with endorphins and dopamine I would gather.

That was an idea that many "non-believing" scientists had pushed forward but many NDE experiencers have been doctors and scientists themselves and have completely discredited that idea on MANY grounds, but none more than the fact that they say no amount of endorphins or even morphine or any drug or hormone known to man can even come close to comparing to what is experienced in "the beyond."

Countless mystics have told the same story, and very much like the extraordinary level of "reality" they experience that leaves them feeling as though everyday life is no more than a dream, the bliss experienced, and not even at the higher spiritual levels but much before that, is so incredible that there is no way to make the human mind even grasp it.

The very same thing is told about the incredible love that is experienced. It is said that God is NOTHING but "love and bliss" (as the New Testament also says but the Old Testament completely defies) and when you experience it you are changed forever. It is nothing even remotely like love experienced on earth, even the most incredible and intense love we can ever feel. It is very unconditional and very intense.

I am not allowed to discuss my own experiences but there are countless sources of mystics who have done so, from Christian mystics (who only ever attain the "lower" spiritual realms) to incredibly accomplished mystics such as Rumi, Nanak, Kabir and many others (who achieved the highest possible levels). And they try as best as possible to describe the love and bliss that "defies explanation." Just Google those names along with terms like love and I'm sure there will be much to read.


.


#119    joc

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostShabd Mystic, on 23 October 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

That was an idea that many "non-believing" scientists had pushed forward but many NDE experiencers have been doctors and scientists themselves and have completely discredited that idea on MANY grounds, but none more than the fact that they say no amount of endorphins or even morphine or any drug or hormone known to man can even come close to comparing to what is experienced in "the beyond."

Countless mystics have told the same story, and very much like the extraordinary level of "reality" they experience that leaves them feeling as though everyday life is no more than a dream, the bliss experienced, and not even at the higher spiritual levels but much before that, is so incredible that there is no way to make the human mind even grasp it.

The very same thing is told about the incredible love that is experienced. It is said that God is NOTHING but "love and bliss" (as the New Testament also says but the Old Testament completely defies) and when you experience it you are changed forever. It is nothing even remotely like love experienced on earth, even the most incredible and intense love we can ever feel. It is very unconditional and very intense.

I am not allowed to discuss my own experiences but there are countless sources of mystics who have done so, from Christian mystics (who only ever attain the "lower" spiritual realms) to incredibly accomplished mystics such as Rumi, Nanak, Kabir and many others (who achieved the highest possible levels). And they try as best as possible to describe the love and bliss that "defies explanation." Just Google those names along with terms like love and I'm sure there will be much to read.


.
Why are you not allowed to discuss your own experiences?

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#120    Shabd Mystic

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:44 PM

Some examples of quotes from mystics about the bliss they experienced:


Buddha:

There is pleasure and there is bliss.
Forgo the first to possess the second.


Ramana Maharishi:

Bliss is not added to your nature, it is merely revealed as your true natural state, eternal and imperishable.


Kabir:

My mind has returned
To its own primal state;
I realized the Lord
When I died while living.
Says Kabir: I am merged
In the bliss of Sahaj;
I no longer know fear,
Nor inspire it in others.


Johann Wolfgang von Goethe:

Ha! A rush of bliss
flows suddenly through all my senses!
I feel a glow, a holy joy of life
which sets my veins and flesh afire.
Was it a god that drew these signs
which soothe my inward raging
and fill my wretched heart with joy,
and with mysterious strength
reveal about me Nature's pulse?
Am I a god? The light pervades me so!
In these pure ciphers I can see
living Nature spread out before my soul.
At last I understand the sage's words:
“The world of spirits is not closed:
your mind is shut, your heart is dead!
Pupil, stand up and unafraid
bathe your earthly breast in morning light!


"Here in this body are the sacred rivers: here are the sun and moon as well as all the pilgrimage places... I have not encountered another temple as blissful as my own body." ~ Saraha


Kabir:

I have attained
The dazzling state of bliss —
Free from fear, free from pain,
I am the weaver, O Lord, of Thy Name;
I weave and reap the profit
Of inner rapport with Thee.
I am the weaver of the Lord’s Name.


Swami Sivananda:

Life is a pilgrimage. The wise man does not rest by the roadside inns. He marches direct to the illimitable domain of eternal bliss, his ultimate destination.


I have tasted the bliss of the Original Abode which alone is true. The world, on the other hand, is only a fleeting show, and only if one ponders over this, one will be able to realize the essence and then alone will one's boat of life be able to cross the ocean of worldly existence. ~ Tulsi Sahib



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