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Did Jesus think he was God ? or


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#46    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 03:46 PM

eight bits on Apr 28 2009, 07:17 AM, said:

Jesus is depicted as addressing the question directly in John 10: 30-38

"The Father and I are one."
The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.
Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?"
The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God."
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."


The scriptural reference ("written in your law") is apparently Psalm 82: 6. That short psalm depicts the "council of the gods" thought to be a typical belief of the northern branch of the Hebrew nation. Jesus, or John speaking through Jesus, gives the psalm what seems to me to be a gnostic interpretation. We are, by birth, the council of the gods. We need to act accordingly. Gods are those of us to whom the word of God came.

Jesus thinks that he is ahead of his listeners on the learning curve, but not different in kind from them. He is God, addressing the council of gods, the folks with the stones in their hands.


I understand you .. from the gnostic interpretation. in short we are all gods . no different than Jesus. Going by that however worshiping Jesus as God would be like worshiping any other human as God.

not to get into the aspect of Idols either .. or worshiping other Gods ...

but the blending in of gnositism with christianity seems overall at odds.. in it's present form.  Jesus may very well have been an Essene then that would make sense. Nazareth did have a large number of Essenes.  But at the same time the bible has him following Orthodox Judaism rules and not Essene ( like eating meat)  . Maybe he was a mix of both. ?

but does that fit the Psalm ?

A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
       he gives judgment among the "gods":


2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
       and show partiality to the wicked?
       Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
       maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
       deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
       They walk about in darkness;
       all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
       you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
       you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
       for all the nations are your inheritance

So if he is referring to this as him being God as much as any of us can be , seems we were judged not doing a good job.

and this still doesn't deter from the fact that Jesus was by blood a Moabite which would , according to the OT disqualify him entrance to heaven forever. ( even if Joseph had adopted him as well as some want to argue since Joseph would have been Moabite as well ... same tribe.)






#47    eight bits

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 10:03 PM

There are times I think that whoever put John in the canon must not have read the thing original.gif.

I agree, of course, that Jesus is an orthodox Jew, or maybe it would be better to say fundamentalist, except that the word is so degraded in American English. By fundamentalist, I mean someone saying that the forms are corrupt, so live the substance instead.

Psalm 82: 2-4 could be the first draft for the Sermon on the Mount. I don't mean that literally, I mean the content.

And as for verses 5-8, if the quotation marks are rearranged, then you have plain gnosticism: 5 - you have forgotten who you are, 6 - who you are are gods, 7- but in your present state of ignorance, you are pathetic, and so 8 - wake up.

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seems we were judged not doing a good job

As in sleepwalking instead of living.

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#48    Sherapy

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 10:18 PM

eight bits on Apr 28 2009, 04:17 AM, said:

Jesus is depicted as addressing the question directly in John 10: 30-38

"The Father and I are one."
The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.
Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?"
The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God."
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods"'? If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I do not perform my Father's works, do not believe me; but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."


The scriptural reference ("written in your law") is apparently Psalm 82: 6. That short psalm depicts the "council of the gods" thought to be a typical belief of the northern branch of the Hebrew nation. Jesus, or John speaking through Jesus, gives the psalm what seems to me to be a gnostic interpretation. We are, by birth, the council of the gods. We need to act accordingly. Gods are those of us to whom the word of God came.

Jesus thinks that he is ahead of his listeners on the learning curve, but not different in kind from them. He is God, addressing the council of gods, the folks with the stones in their hands.


It reminds me of the christian rebuke  that they are the true christian because of being  dunked in the lake therefore saved  and all others aren't......

In order to pimp a construct one has to create a spiderman  IMHO..


#49    Dr. D

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Posted 28 April 2009 - 11:55 PM

Tangerine Sheri on Apr 28 2009, 10:18 PM, said:

It reminds me of the christian rebuke  that they are the true christian because of being  dunked in the lake therefore saved  and all others aren't......

In order to pimp a construct one has to create a spiderman  IMHO..


Alexander the Great believed he was a god but that didn't make him one.  Viewing this question in the same light, I find little consequence in what Jesus believed or not.

Hello Sherri . . . . long time, no?


#50    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 12:55 AM

Dr. D on Apr 28 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

Alexander the Great believed he was a god but that didn't make him one.  Viewing this question in the same light, I find little consequence in what Jesus believed or not.

Hello Sherri . . . . long time, no?


true !! as did the Pharaohs !  for thousands of years they were thought of as Gods physically...... yet that died out too . all religions do eventually or  they get traded up. like baseball cards.  Lose their potency. Some faster than others.

in 5000 years the abraham 3 may be gone or nothing more than a whisper in history ... kinda like the shakers .


#51    GIDEON MAGE

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 02:53 AM

Lt_Ripley on Apr 28 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

true !! as did the Pharaohs !  for thousands of years they were thought of as Gods physically...... yet that died out too . all religions do eventually or  they get traded up. like baseball cards.  Lose their potency. Some faster than others.

in 5000 years the abraham 3 may be gone or nothing more than a whisper in history ... kinda like the shakers .

which three?  karaism?essenism?pharaseeism?

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#52    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:53 AM

GIDEON MAGE on Apr 28 2009, 10:53 PM, said:

which three?  karaism?essenism?pharaseeism?


I meant the big 3 and not the auto industry ....... Judaism , Islam , and Christianity.




#53    danielost

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 05:50 AM

Lt_Ripley on Apr 24 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

Did Jesus think he was God or was this made up by man ?  

Jesus was a Othodox Jew and according to their beliefs about the messiah , which he would have been well aware ....

Jews do not believe that the messiah will be divine. A fundamental difference between Judaism and Christianity is the Jewish conviction that God is so essentially different from and beyond humanity that he could never become a human.

Moreover, Jews find no foundation in the scriptures for such a belief about the messiah. Passages viewed by Christians as indicating a divine messiah (such as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53) are viewed by Jews as speaking of the people of Israel,

Jesus would have been well aware of the above... that God could never become human.  

So if Jesus , being a good Jew , wouldn't think himself God why do Christians ?



Good question.  Because if you look in the new testiment it clearly states that he is not god.


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I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#54    Karlis

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 08:10 AM

Lt_Ripley on Apr 29 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

I understand you .. from the gnostic interpretation. in short we are all gods . no different than Jesus. ...
Hi Ripley, eight bits, Sheri, Dr. D, Gideon Mage, Danielost, and anyone else I may have missed – according to the Bible we are all *potential* Gods. Those people whose human spirit is impregnated with God’s Spirit, have been conceived with the imperishable ‘seed’ of the Spirit of God. These people will be ‘born again’ as immortal spirit beings aka children of God, at Jesus' return … then they will be Gods, as per the Scriptures.
Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
And
Psa 82:6  I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
The problem is, all humanity has sinned, with the result that:
Psa 82:7  But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
The ‘Good news’ aka the Gospel, is that Jesus has paid our penalty for us, if we are willing to accept that payment. In that case we will not suffer the second death but have the *potential* to be born into God’s family as God’s children aka as Gods, at Jesus' next coming.

Too simple, maybe? original.gif


Lt_Ripley on Apr 29 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

Going by that however worshiping Jesus as God would be like worshiping any other human as God.

not to get into the aspect of Idols either .. or worshiping other Gods ...

but the blending in of gnositism with christianity seems overall at odds.. in it's present form.  Jesus may very well have been an Essene then that would make sense. Nazareth did have a large number of Essenes.  But at the same time the bible has him following Orthodox Judaism rules and not Essene ( like eating meat)  . Maybe he was a mix of both. ?
That's good gnostic thinking, Ripley. thumbsup.gif


Ripley -- you ask: but does that fit the Psalm ?
The answer is "No", your ideas do not fit the Scriptures.

A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
       he gives judgment among the "gods":


2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
       and show partiality to the wicked?
       Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
       maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
       deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
       They walk about in darkness;
       all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
       you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
       you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
       for all the nations are your inheritance


Lt_Ripley on Apr 29 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

So if he is referring to this as him being God as much as any of us can be , seems we were judged not doing a good job.

and this still doesn't deter from the fact that Jesus was by blood a Moabite which would , according to the OT disqualify him entrance to heaven forever. ( even if Joseph had adopted him as well as some want to argue since Joseph would have been Moabite as well ... same tribe.)
You are right Ripley; Mankind is not doing a good job.
And, no, the fact that Jesus' blood line is Moabite does not disqualify Jesus as you so often have said. Your reasoning has been faulty, that's all.

If you care to discuss any of these points, please do so,
Karlis



#55    eight bits

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 11:03 AM

Hello, Karlis

I don't think that Psalm 82 contains material related to the Christian theory of original sin and redemption by death. All of that will come centuries after this psalm was written down.

This psalm is uncontroversially of northern origin, where cosmopolitan exposure to a variety of religious ideas would plausibly shape the psalmist's notion of godhood. On the world stage, there is nothing about being a god that excludes dying or suffering other reversals of fortune. Verse 7 would fit comfortably in the Eddas, addressed to Odin, verbatim.

What sin there is in the psalm is actual sin (verse 2), for which remedial action is needed and available to the living (verses 3 and 4). The basis for that remedial action is, you should pardon the expression, knowledge of good and evil (verse 5).

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#56    Sherapy

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 04:11 PM

Dr. D on Apr 28 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

Alexander the Great believed he was a god but that didn't make him one.  Viewing this question in the same light, I find little consequence in what Jesus believed or not.

Hello Sherri . . . . long time, no?


OMG, long time  is an understatement, are you back posting Dr. D.? I have to say  since you left it has been no fun...I sure miss ya old friend....(((HUGS)))


#57    Lt_Ripley

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 09:06 PM

Quote

The ‘Good news’ aka the Gospel, is that Jesus has paid our penalty for us, if we are willing to accept that payment. In that case we will not suffer the second death but have the *potential* to be born into God’s family as God’s children aka as Gods, at Jesus' next coming.



that's an opinion , not fact.

another opinion ... Rabbi David Wolpe

The idea that one can be saved only through Jesus is contrary to simple compassion and justice. Judaism teaches that "the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come." Maimonides writes in a letter that there are non-Jews who "bring their souls to perfection." That is the simple truth that all faiths should acknowledge and celebrate. Otherwise, there can be no kinship. As Abraham Joshua Heschel once wrote about attempts to convert the Jews: "How can we take seriously a friendship that is conditioned ultimately on the hope and expectation that the Jew will disappear? How would a Christian feel if we Jews were engaged in an effort to bring about the liquidation of Christianity?"

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/20...-Jesus.aspx?p=2

from another Rabbi and at the moment can't find the quote ... basically they didn't need a middle man like Jesus to get to God ... they have a direct line .







#58    Karlis

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 10:54 PM

eight bits on Apr 29 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

Hello, Karlis

I don't think that Psalm 82 contains material related to the Christian theory of original sin and redemption by death. All of that will come centuries after this psalm was written down.

This psalm is uncontroversially of northern origin, where cosmopolitan exposure to a variety of religious ideas would plausibly shape the psalmist's notion of godhood. On the world stage, there is nothing about being a god that excludes dying or suffering other reversals of fortune. Verse 7 would fit comfortably in the Eddas, addressed to Odin, verbatim.

What sin there is in the psalm is actual sin (verse 2), for which remedial action is needed and available to the living (verses 3 and 4). The basis for that remedial action is, you should pardon the expression, knowledge of good and evil (verse 5).
8bits -- could you rephrase that into English, please? original.gif
Karlis



#59    Karlis

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Posted 29 April 2009 - 10:59 PM

Lt_Ripley on Apr 30 2009, 07:06 AM, said:

that's an opinion , not fact.

another opinion ... Rabbi David Wolpe

The idea that one can be saved only through Jesus is contrary to simple compassion and justice. Judaism teaches that "the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come." Maimonides writes in a letter that there are non-Jews who "bring their souls to perfection." That is the simple truth that all faiths should acknowledge and celebrate. Otherwise, there can be no kinship. As Abraham Joshua Heschel once wrote about attempts to convert the Jews: "How can we take seriously a friendship that is conditioned ultimately on the hope and expectation that the Jew will disappear? How would a Christian feel if we Jews were engaged in an effort to bring about the liquidation of Christianity?"

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/20...-Jesus.aspx?p=2

from another Rabbi and at the moment can't find the quote ... basically they didn't need a middle man like Jesus to get to God ... they have a direct line .
And what's 'your' opinion, Ripley? This is one of the very few posts where you have not specifically told us. tongue.gif

<Just in fun>, wink2.gif
Karlis



#60    eight bits

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 12:07 AM

Quote

8bits -- could you rephrase that into English, please?

Oh, friend Karlis, you can come back better than that. I know you can.

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