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Genesis and Egypt


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#16    Rafterman

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:36 AM

View Postdmgspycat, on 04 May 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

I think raftermans post is devoid of merit. Who wants to listen to a stupid naval engineer rant about his opinions based on opinions...I think Americans have this syndrome where they can't believe evidence in front of them, speaking of Ron Wyatt's discovery and carbon dated evidence, they need to be told what to believe by 'proper' authorities.  So I'm supposed to dismiss real evidence and instead embrace an opinion based on what...

What real evidence are you dismissing?

If it was impossible for the Ark materials to be gathered and be built and that there was no way in hell that the vessel could be seaworthy, then that somewhat blows a bit of a hole in the "they found it" argument, doesn't it.

Not to mention, the utter and complete rediculousness of the whole 2 by 2 thing and, frankly, the entire story itself.  Anyone with even a minimal ability for critical thinking should be able to see that.

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#17    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:21 AM

View PostRafterman, on 04 May 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

What real evidence are you dismissing?

If it was impossible for the Ark materials to be gathered and be built and that there was no way in hell that the vessel could be seaworthy, then that somewhat blows a bit of a hole in the "they found it" argument, doesn't it.

Not to mention, the utter and complete rediculousness of the whole 2 by 2 thing and, frankly, the entire story itself.  Anyone with even a minimal ability for critical thinking should be able to see that.




What make's You think that people in those days could NOT build a seaworthy vessel, while there have been various other archaeological evidence that suggest's they were more advanced than we realise, or care to admit

I think that it is a very high probability that what the late Ron Wyatt discovered/investigated is the Ark of Noah
It is in the right area (on the mountain range of Ararat) and it is the right size  

Most people read it as the Ark resting on the actual mountain of Ararat, for some reason, even though Genesis 8:4 states Mountain's

Genesis 8:4...

"4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat."

There is various other information and Archaeological evidence that suggest's the various other stories in the Bible and of Noah's Ark is true...


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#18    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:34 AM

View PostLikely Guy, on 04 May 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

Why is this in the 'Conspiracies' section and not 'Alternative History'?

Edit: Nevermind. I'll report this thread and help get it moved. You might get more traffic if it's in the right forum.

I was also wondering why this was in the CT section and not some other section of the site....

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#19    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:53 AM

View Postdmgspycat, on 03 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Secondly the Hebrews and the hyksos both have the same time line in Egypt. From 1800 BC to about 1200BC.
Really? so Ahmose did not defeat them in approximately 1550 BC? Where is the historical record, not fantasy stories mostly about "Moses", to show an identifiable Hyksos presence in Egypt for, as you contend, a further 350 years after they were expelled. As for the earliest historical record of the existance of Hebrews, well, they were not Hyksos, that is simply wishful thinking not backed up by any real research. This attempt to have clearly identifyable Hebrews in the 18th Dynasty has been hit on the head time and again, not least on this forum. As for the other elements of your contention, well, I am sure there are plenty here too dismantle such ideas.


#20    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:30 AM

https://www.youtube....h?v=yTnqRpXKcaQ

Evidence that Canaanites/Israelites lived in Goshen,  Egypt ?

Although I have not watched the video fully, it does seem interesting

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Edited by Jackofalltrades, 04 May 2013 - 11:31 AM.

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#21    cormac mac airt

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:21 PM

View Postdmgspycat, on 03 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

My stupid phone keeps cutting out on me so I can't type that much. this is my 3rd attempt at posting from my phone. I cant elaborate for fear that my phone might cut off again. A few things:
Noah's Ark has been found across from Mount ararat it is so old that the cedar wood it was made from was petrified. Carbon dated to 10000 BC.
Secondly the Hebrews and the hyksos both have the same time line in Egypt. From 1800 BC to about 1200BC. I believe they are the same people so do a lot of researchers based upon language and blood type.

Moses recreated the Hyksos time line to fit over Egypt's more older time line. This is why Hebrew Bible patriarchs live for so long . They didn't really it was just to cover up the 8000 missing years. Noah and Adam were not Hebrew. It is an Egyptian legend not Hebrew and not Hyksos.

Lastly there is so much proof to prove that there was a cataclysm in 10000 BC which matches the carbon dating of the boat across from Mount Ararat. So much evidence of tsunami's of gigantic proportions washing up over the lands 10000 BC . This event is an Egyptian one that has nothing to do with the Epic of Gilgamesh which is a Sumerian legend. Egypt is older than Sumer.

Do you now understand why In the story of Genesis You have the story about ten thousand year old ship then after chapter 9 in Genesis after the flood story, it immediately jumps to the story of Abraham. A man that lived 8000 years later. A man that had nothing to do with Egypt's beginning. My friends real history has been hijacked.

Since the Hyksos were expelled by the Egyptians by Ahmose I c.1550 BC and the earliest mention of the Israelites per the Merneptah Stela dates to c.1208 BC as a tribe who were defeated by Egypt the no, they weren't one and the same. The only thing they have in common is that they were Canaanite/Semitic in origin. And what 'blood type' are you claiming links the two?

Moses did a poor job of calculating the chronology then as the given chronology, per the Bible, only takes one back to the 4th millenium BC. Also, the Egyptians had no legend of a Great Flood.

Actually there's not while there actually IS evidence of the destruction of Lake Agassiz-Ojibway c.6470 BC, the Storegga Slide/destruction of Doggerland c.6200 BC, the Black Sea flood c.7400 BC, the flooding of the Persian Gulf after c.14,000 BP (12,000 BC) and the marine transgression of the Persian Gulf into southern Iraq c.4000 - 3000 BC. None of which validates a story of the 'Great Flood' as an event that happened 10,000 BC.

Again, the Egyptians had no Great Flood story.

There is no story of a 10,000 year old ship. Per the Bible's own chronology there is only the story of a c.4100-4200 year old ship/event. Which is nowhere in evidence in the Middle East.

cormac

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#22    jaylemurph

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:55 PM

View Postdmgspycat, on 04 May 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

I think raftermans post is devoid of merit. Who wants to listen to a stupid naval engineer rant about his opinions based on opinions...I think Americans have this syndrome where they can't believe evidence in front of them, speaking of Ron Wyatt's discovery and carbon dated evidence, they need to be told what to believe by 'proper' authorities.  So I'm supposed to dismiss real evidence and instead embrace an opinion based on what...

Your first mistake is in assuming the Bible is some sort of historical document. It's not. It's religious fiction, and like all religious fiction, its purpose is in making its audience believe in a very specific form of god, and the various good things that happen to the people who subscribe to that view and the bad things that happen to people who don't. Any 'historical' details are therefore verisimililitude -- the same way the Golden Gate Bridge is shown in future San Fransisco in Star Trek.

And if you think you have any (actual, physical) evidence to overturn this reading, I urge you to share it, rather than making an argument based on a /huge/ statement of general character.

View PostJackofalltrades, on 04 May 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

What make's You think that people in those days could NOT build a seaworthy vessel, while there have been various other archaeological evidence that suggest's they were more advanced than we realise, or care to admit.

The problem with believing in Noah's Ark is /not/ the idea people could not build a seaworthy vessel out of gopherwood, and it's either hopelessly naive or stupidly disingenuous to suggest it is. The problem lies with suggesting all mankind is descended from eight people, that the entire world was covered with water and that all life on it now descended from two or fourteen individuals. Or that one ship could fit one of every species, for that matter.

Why don't you provide some actual evidence for your statements, too  -- or are we just supposed to take your genius in historical interpreatation for granted and believe anything you say?

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I think that it is a very high probability that what the late Ron Wyatt discovered/investigated is the Ark of Noah
It is in the right area (on the mountain range of Ararat) and it is the right size

Most people read it as the Ark resting on the actual mountain of Ararat, for some reason, even though Genesis 8:4 states Mountain's

Genesis 8:4...

"4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat."

Great, that's one fictional object found. How's about joining me on my upcoming Expedition to Find Hogwarts? Or possibly the Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS?

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There is various other information and Archaeological evidence that suggest's the various other stories in the Bible and of Noah's Ark is true...

Really? Why don't you share and let us all discuss it? Or are we back to just trusting your archaeological genius?

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Edited by jaylemurph, 04 May 2013 - 05:56 PM.

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#23    Jackofalltrades

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:21 PM

My reply is in Blue....



View Postjaylemurph, on 04 May 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:


The problem with believing in Noah's Ark is /not/ the idea people could not build a seaworthy vessel out of gopherwood, and it's either hopelessly naive or stupidly disingenuous to suggest it is. The problem lies with suggesting all mankind is descended from eight people, that the entire world was covered with water and that all life on it now descended from two or fourteen individuals. Or that one ship could fit one of every species, for that matter.

My reply was to Rafterman, who seems to think that "it was impossible for the Ark materials to be gathered and be built and that there was no way in hell that the vessel could be seaworthy"

So, You was saying ?



Why don't you provide some actual evidence for your statements, too  -- or are we just supposed to take your genius in historical interpreatation for granted and believe anything you say?

Why dont You take a look at the videos that I posted ?
IF You want to believe anything that I say, then feel free to, but I dont expect You to, unless of course You want to buy this UFO that I recently found...

How about You read everything, and in context before posting (what seem's like) sarcastic remark's



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#24    jaylemurph

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:33 PM

View PostJackofalltrades, on 04 May 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

My reply was to Rafterman, who seems to think that "it was impossible for the Ark materials to be gathered and be built and that there was no way in hell that the vessel could be seaworthy"

Fair enough point. I interpreted your statements incorrectly and did not pay attentiont to the context provided. I was wrong. I apologise.

However, my error aside, you still haven't provided any proof for your allegation for any general level of sophistication in an ancient civilisation, any specific evidence for advanced proto-Hebrew (I guess) ship-building or literal reality of a Biblical text. You could start with telling exactly what gopherwood is, since centuries of Biblical archaeology hasn't been able to arrive at a clear consensus. Seems like a good place to start.

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So, You was saying ? [sic]

Quote

Why dont You take a look at the videos that I posted ?

Because in general, I don't watch Youtube videos. The level of what I have seen varies from risible to pathetic, the sourcing and citation is sketchy at best (so whatever information is presented is not reliable), and I find people who are unable to break down and repeat arguments they see have seen in Youtube clips on their own here to be poor discussion partners. I find that there's a crucial difference between the mindless repetition of Youtube/internet "documentaries" and understanding material on its own terms enough to actually debate a point.

Quote

IF You want to believe anything that I say, then feel free to, but I dont expect You to, unless of course You want to buy this UFO that I recently found...

Only if it's a tall, blue, wooden box with "Public Call" written on it. Then we'll talk.

Quote

How about You read everything, and in context before posting (what seem's like) sarcastic remark's

Fair enough, but how about being prepared to defend the material you discuss on your own?

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph, 04 May 2013 - 09:35 PM.

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#25    scowl

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:30 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 04 May 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Moses did a poor job of calculating the chronology then as the given chronology, per the Bible, only takes one back to the 4th millenium BC. Also, the Egyptians had no legend of a Great Flood.

How could they? They were all killed in the Great Flood! Don't you read your Bible? God killed everyone on the planet including everyone in Egypt.

Don't listen to these eggheads blather on about the ancient history of Egypt or any other countries. They can't be right. If they were right then that would mean that the Bible isn't historically accurate.


#26    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:25 AM

View Postscowl, on 05 May 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

How could they? They were all killed in the Great Flood! Don't you read your Bible? God killed everyone on the planet including everyone in Egypt.

Don't listen to these eggheads blather on about the ancient history of Egypt or any other countries. They can't be right. If they were right then that would mean that the Bible isn't historically accurate.

So since the Bible is supposed to be "the word of God" then according to what you are saying the Judeo-Christian God doesn't know how to count either. Well, so much for being "all-knowing".

As a book allegedly dealing with human history it's not.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 05 May 2013 - 01:26 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#27    scowl

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:42 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 May 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

So since the Bible is supposed to be "the word of God" then according to what you are saying the Judeo-Christian God doesn't know how to count either. Well, so much for being "all-knowing".

As a book allegedly dealing with human history it's not.

The history of Egypt, China, and other countries is another subject that baffles college students who were taught that everything in the Bible is true. Their history should have ended after the Great Flood. In fact all of the Far East should have been void of all human life after it, yet there have been humans there before Biblical times and are still there. As far as I know, no one has found any evidence of a large number of Jews ever living in Egypt (certainly not the numbers stated the Bible) and we have found no evidence of a massive exodus of people from Egypt into Canaan.

It is frustrating to see people believing that Biblical events were true historical events when all evidence shows they were legends, most likely embellished to give the Jewish culture a strong sense of identity and purpose in the midst of so many other cultures. All cultures had their legends told as if they were true. It's silly (if not arrogant) that we choose to believe that ours is the true one.


#28    Harte

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:45 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 May 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:

So since the Bible is supposed to be "the word of God" then according to what you are saying the Judeo-Christian God doesn't know how to count either.

What you fail to consider here is that God is all-powerful.

Obviously, he changed the way numbers work after he did the flood thingy.

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#29    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:59 AM

View PostHarte, on 05 May 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

What you fail to consider here is that God is all-powerful.

Obviously, he changed the way numbers work after he did the flood thingy.

Harte

Which assumes he didn't know how they worked to begin with. I guess this qualifies as the origin of CYA. :w00t:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#30    dmgspycat

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:05 AM

Wearer of hats and rafterman I have done the work for you. Its easy, just look at my original post. You don't have to argue with me, just go check out ron Wyatt's website, which doesn't sound like you have. Maybe I'm just old school or something but the way I think this works is I present a theory based on evidence then you check out that evidence first before dismissing all of it. You can't just say..."no it hasn't". Well this Ark or ship that was opened up after the earthquake looks real to me. I'm going with the evidence and carbon dating as there was no worldwide flood other than 12000 years ago.

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