254 replies to this topic

[and then]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 15 December 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

So, are you saying Lieberman forced his way into the coalition?

Not at all.  I'm just saying that the party is bigger than just Lieberman.  They will probably just find someone like him to take his place.  There is a strong force in Israeli politics that feels mostly as he does.  My guess is that Yisrael Beitanu will eventually have to ease back somewhat to the left if they are to survive but in Israel's system it seems easier for extreme's from both sides to maintain an influence due to the coalitions they form.

[and then]

Yamato, on 15 December 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

I posted this for discussion earlier this year.   While the thread had many replies, the content of the video itself was largely ignored.

I watched about 10 minutes and it seemed to be the same anti Zionist info I've seen in various forms for years.  When I have more time I may watch it all and see if there is any balance to it.  But my earlier points still stand.  Even if every negative thing about Zionism were admitted to without excuse the only solution for those who are against Zionism is for Zionism to cease to exist.  This means the State of Israel would need to cease to exist as a country of essentially Jewish character. I.E. to become the 23rd Arab State.  Yam it's just not ever going to happen before a regional and possibly global war is fought.  Those who are anti Zionism are deeply committed to it as a moral exercise.  Those who are pro Zionism who do not live in Israel look upon it the same way - as a moral exercise.  Those who live in Israel look upon it as their lives, their very survival in the world.

[Yamato]

and then, on 15 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

I watched about 10 minutes and it seemed to be the same anti Zionist info I've seen in various forms for years.  When I have more time I may watch it all and see if there is any balance to it.  But my earlier points still stand.  Even if every negative thing about Zionism were admitted to without excuse the only solution for those who are against Zionism is for Zionism to cease to exist.  This means the State of Israel would need to cease to exist as a country of essentially Jewish character. I.E. to become the 23rd Arab State.  Yam it's just not ever going to happen before a regional and possibly global war is fought.  Those who are anti Zionism are deeply committed to it as a moral exercise.  Those who are pro Zionism who do not live in Israel look upon it the same way - as a moral exercise.  Those who live in Israel look upon it as their lives, their very survival in the world.

No, Israelis are divisive on whether they agree with me or you.

You participated heavily in the thread I spoke of above.  I titled it 'The Zionist Story' in fact.    You should try to get through all of it.   If that thread wasn't closed down or deleted we can open up the discussion, this time about the video itself if you like.

[Codeblind]

Yamato, on 15 December 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

I posted this for discussion earlier this year.   While the thread had many replies, the content of the video itself was largely ignored.

That doesn't surprise me and I'm sorry I missed that thread, just reading the comments made on youtube alone... like Muslims are not human or they are cockroaches etc etc, that attitude needs exposing..but the over riding point is why was the Palestinian Arabs punished for the crimes of Hitler when the holocaust had nothing to do with Islam,

Edited by Codeblind, 16 December 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[and then]

Codeblind, on 16 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

That doesn't surprise me and I'm sorry I missed that thread, just reading the comments made on youtube alone... like Muslims are not human or they are cockroaches etc etc, that attitude needs exposing..but the over riding point is why was the Palestinian Arabs punished for the crimes of Hitler when the holocaust had nothing to do with Islam,

Actually there was a whole Islamic Division of the SS.  But I agree, the designs of Hitler were political more than religious.  As to punishing - I don't think that in the slightest.  Taking part of the mandate and giving it to the Jews was for political expediency.  It's done everyday on a different scale.  And before the Palestinians became a focus of resistance against the idea of an Israeli/Jewish state it had been largely an acceptable practice to redraw maps after aggressors were defeated.  But I realize the UN set up new rules about such things - just as they set up the state of Israel.  The point is that Israel exists and short of a very bloody war to remove her the hatred of Zionism is a pointless exercise.  Time would be better spent creating a truly just solution and then forcing both sides to see the error of their thinking - if possible.  Personally I don't think it IS possible.  But blaming one side by spewing vitriol constantly is never going to make the situation better - it just won't.

[Codeblind]

and then, on 16 December 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Actually there was a whole Islamic Division of the SS.  

The holocaust had nothing to do with Islam or Palestine so why bring up the fact there was a Muslim brigade of SS..what purpose does that serve ?

Yamato, on 15 December 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

No, Israelis are divisive on whether they agree with me or you.

You participated heavily in the thread I spoke of above.  I titled it 'The Zionist Story' in fact. You should try to get through all of it.   If that thread wasn't closed down or deleted we can open up the discussion, this time about the video itself if you like.

People like and then wont take on specific issues only dismiss them all as constantly spewing vitriol. Its almost like a rapist who has been caught by DNA and CCTV but yet continues to find excuse after excuse for their behaviour and then to even try to say your a hater because you question them about the crimes they commit...its hilarious and perhaps that's the reason anti semitism is growing when in the face of so much evidence they still continue with the charade.

Edited by Codeblind, 17 December 2012 - 12:11 AM.

[and then]

Codeblind, on 17 December 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

The holocaust had nothing to do with Islam or Palestine so why bring up the fact there was a Muslim brigade of SS..what purpose does that serve ?



People like and then wont take on specific issues only dismiss them all as constantly spewing vitriol. Its almost like a rapist who has been caught by DNA and CCTV but yet continues to find excuse after excuse for their behaviour and then to even try to say your a hater because you question them about the crimes they commit...its hilarious and perhaps that's the reason anti semitism is growing when in the face of so much evidence they still continue with the charade.

Those "specific" issues have been debated ad nauseum by better men than myself.  It is pointless to continue the arguments any longer.  Opinions will never change between these two groups of people.  If that were possible it would have happened long ago.  What will happen is that war will ensue at some point and both sides will suffer immeasurably.  Until then people like yourself will continue to tell the world how evil one side is in the conflict while ignoring the acts of the other side.  As if your personal morality is somehow superior.  It's interesting to me that people all over the world take sides in this conflict as though it is personal to them.   For my part, I support the people of Israel - always have, always will.  I do so full well knowing that those people are often wrong in their approach to living with their neighbors.  I don't hate the Palestinians but neither do I accept the myth of their victimization.  Truth is that if Israel desired to eradicate the problem of the Palestinians they could do so.  They choose not to because they are a democracy that believes in a core of values that is pointedly missing in the ideals of their enemies.  Israel will triumph in this struggle.  No doubt in my mind of that but I find it more and more incredible as time goes by, how many people look at this struggle and fail to see our common danger from it.  How they somehow expect the people of Israel to magically surrender to those that would slaughter their children.  That expectation is irrational to the point of insanity.

[Yamato]

Codeblind, on 17 December 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

The holocaust had nothing to do with Islam or Palestine so why bring up the fact there was a Muslim brigade of SS..what purpose does that serve ?



People like and then wont take on specific issues only dismiss them all as constantly spewing vitriol. Its almost like a rapist who has been caught by DNA and CCTV but yet continues to find excuse after excuse for their behaviour and then to even try to say your a hater because you question them about the crimes they commit...its hilarious and perhaps that's the reason anti semitism is growing when in the face of so much evidence they still continue with the charade.

Doing things that would make anyone hate you and then blaming them for hating you is ridiculous.   Equally ridiculous are how these blatantly anti-Arab mindsets have convinced themselves they're the ones who aren't anti-Semitic.   I can't have a discussion on this forum without another vitriolic spiel about ethnic groups coming around the next corner and it's a shame frankly.

[Codeblind]

and then, on 17 December 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Read some of the testimonies, and if you feel it pointless to continue debating them then why try to defend them..if its pointless then I guess we wont be seeing you anymore in the thread.
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

Edited by Codeblind, 17 December 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Codeblind]

More ex Israeli soldiers testimony,

[and then]

Codeblind, on 17 December 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Read some of the testimonies, and if you feel it pointless to continue debating them then why try to defend them..if its pointless then I guess we wont be seeing you anymore in the thread.
http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

As long as Itreat others here with respect I can come and go as I please.  And I said it was pointless to argue - which is what you seem increasingly intent on doing.  We simply disagree on this situation.  I admire the passions of person who support the Palestinians as long as they remain respectful.

[Codeblind]

and then, on 17 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I actually tried to give you some credibility using the word debate, as you haven't really said anything other than its pointless to argue, you did try with a reply on the weapon used by the kid that was killed, so you can debate when you feel you have the content to argue with, if when you can reply to specific issues instead of hiding behind the excuse that Those "specific" issues have been debated ad nauseum by better men than myself.  It is pointless to continue the arguments any longer.
then fine your'll get some respect from me, I think it lacks any respect for anyone who takes the time to comment in here only to have you try to defend against those comments generally but then to give that kind of statement.

Edited by Codeblind, 17 December 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[and then]

Codeblind, on 17 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I actually tried to give you some credibility using the word debate, as you haven't really said anything other than its pointless to argue, you did try with a reply on the weapon used by the kid that was killed, so you can debate when you feel you have the content to argue with, if when you can reply to specific issues instead of hiding behind the excuse that Those "specific" issues have been debated ad nauseum by better men than myself.  It is pointless to continue the arguments any longer.
then fine your'll get some respect from me, I think it lacks any respect for anyone who takes the time to comment in here only to have you try to defend against those comments generally but then to give that kind of statement.

What is it with you?  You seem intent on making this into some kind of personal disagreement.  Codeblind I have no desire for your brand of "respect", you obviously have some set of rules by which you feel things need to be debated.  I'm not a "debater".  Nor is that a requirement to be on this forum.  I have enjoyed reading many informed and interesting debates in my year here but I usually only give an opinion because that's all I am capable of doing.  You'd do well to relax a bit and just allow for differences of opinion.  They're quite common here, you know?  

[Codeblind]

I apologise if you feel this is personal, but seeing as your very active in this thread and continued to reply I was hoping you might respond specifically like you did with the shooting last week, and with your Muslim SS, I assumed you was being evasive purposely, especially as you continued to defend Israel but not against any specific issues, and as you then went on to described others opinions as spewing vitriol constantly but without actually attempting to respond to any criticism only to state "Those "specific" issues have been debated ad nauseum by better men than myself.  It is pointless to continue the arguments any longer."

But I have no idea what your talking about my kind of respect, I just think its respectful to respond to what people post, especially after dismissing them as "Cruel and bitter criticism" I fail to see how highlighting Israeli or even Palestinian wrongs as cruel criticism, if its true its true.

Edited by Codeblind, 18 December 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[and then]

Codeblind, on 17 December 2012 - 11:58 PM, said:

I apologise if you feel this is personal, but seeing as your very active in this thread and continued to reply I was hoping you might respond specifically like you did with the shooting last week, and with your Muslim SS, I assumed you was being evasive purposely, especially as you continued to defend Israel but not against any specific issues, and as you then went on to described others opinions as spewing vitriol constantly but without actually attempting to respond to any criticism only to state "Those "specific" issues have been debated ad nauseum by better men than myself.  It is pointless to continue the arguments any longer."

But I have no idea what your talking about my kind of respect, I just think its respectful to respond to what people post, especially after dismissing them as "Cruel and bitter criticism" I fail to see how highlighting Israeli or even Palestinian wrongs as cruel criticism, if its true its true.

I will try again.  First of all the comment about a Muslim SS division was simply a statement to reply to this comment made by you: " why was the Palestinian Arabs punished for the crimes of Hitler when the holocaust had nothing to do with Islam",  I was attempting to point out that Islam did in fact play a small role in the holocaust.  That was all I intended by the comment.  My comment that there was no point in continuing the argument about the differences between the Palestinians and Israelis was simply an acknowledgement that the two sides themselves have chosen conflict over peace.  Sometimes both are guilty, other times they are ready to come to the table at different times.  You can post up videos and reference news and book evidence of Israeli actions against the Palestinians and If I chose to I could do the same against the Palestinians - believe me - it has been done to death here.  What it comes down to for me is that I support Israel.  Not every action of a secular government but the people of Israel.  I understand and have come to respect that most on UM support the Palestinians.  But neither side in this conflict are guiltless.  You know little of me unless you have studied my content (which I'm sure NO ONE would ever bother to do) so I'll explain myself a bit.  I stated as soon as I came to UM that I was (and am) a Christian Zionist.  I never realized before I came to this forum that that was (in certain circles) like calling myself an aids infested leper.  A Zionist is one who believes that Israel was deeded the land now called Palestine by God Himself.  I do NOT think that Israelis have a right to brutalize people and take their homes from them.  The settler issue troubles me much.  But overall I believe that the land IS their's by right.  Since I think it's safe to say that most here at UM are lukewarm at best to even acknowledging that there IS a God, I  understand why not too many folks here would agree with my POV.  But I am consistent in my support for Israel and always will be.