Roswell debris tested; Not from Earth

[bmk1245]

Great post Bison. Now keep your eyes open for some disinformation that will disregard these findings, and trash the lab that did the analysis. I would guess space.com or some branch of the MSM will be tasked with debunking this. It won't take long!

There is nothing to debunk. Results don't show any sign of "not from Earth". If we look for natural abundances for magnesium, we will find that numbers slightly differs from posted in OPs link:

78.99% ²⁴Mg

10.0% ²⁵Mg

11.01% ²⁶Mg

(Magnesium Technology: Metallurgy, Design Data, Applications, Horst E. Friedrich, Barry Leslie Mordike, Springer, 2006, page 64.)

So, differences between data for AH-1 and earthly abundances for Mg isotopes are less than 0.5%.

[The Religious Hoax]

There is nothing to debunk. Results don't show any sign of "not from Earth". If we look for natural abundances for magnesium, we will find that numbers slightly differs from posted in OPs link:

78.99% ²⁴Mg

10.0% ²⁵Mg

11.01% ²⁶Mg

(Magnesium Technology: Metallurgy, Design Data, Applications, Horst E. Friedrich, Barry Leslie Mordike, Springer, 2006, page 64.)

So, differences between data for AH-1 and earthly abundances for Mg isotopes are less than 0.5%.

I won't pretend to know anything about radiochemistry, but what is the standard deviation for isotope composition here on Earth? 0.5% can either be a lot, or just a little.

[JesseCuster]

Aluminum is an element that it not found in its pure, metallic state in nature but is usually extracted from bauxite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium

Wherever this aluminum alloy came from, the odds are overwhelming that it was manufactured by someone, not something found in nature.

Yes, I know that.

But if you find some sort of unidentified object or debris and tests show to be made of aluminium, it should be no surprise in itself, considering how widespread its use in everyday objects.

The post I was replying to made aluminium sound like some sort of exotic extraterrestial substance. It was probably just poorly worded.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Archimedes

[digitalartist]

Before there's even a discussion about earth and extraterrestrial possibilities for the metal fragments, Frank Kimbler's story needs to be checked out. I know what he claims but is it true.

Since I can not watch videos at this location, perhaps someone can see if any of the following questions are answered by it.

1. Was he in Roswell when he said he was?
   
2. Did he go out to the debris field?
   
3. Was he alone or with someone else when he went to the debris field?
   
4. If he was with someone else in the debris field, was it his only visit or did he visit the debris field prior to that?
   
5. If he was with someone else, who was it?
   
6. If he was with someone else and it was his only visit to the field were the two of them ever separated for a period of time?
   
7. Do the two labs verify that they tested the fragments for him and what were their conclusions?
   

edited to correct spelling

Edited July 13, 2011 by digitalartist

[TheMcGuffin]

Yes, I know that.

But if you find some sort of unidentified object or debris and tests show to be made of aluminium, it should be no surprise in itself, considering how widespread its use in everyday objects.

The post I was replying to made aluminium sound like some sort of exotic extraterrestial substance. It was probably just poorly worded.

That's all right. I'm definitely not going to say that it was from an alien spacecraft, either. No way. I've seen this type of thing before, and the story will get some publicity for a while then just fade away and never be heard from again.

There are many types of things that are built with aluminum alloys so I'd leave it to the real experts to determine if it was something exotic. I don't see any of those around here, but they must exist out there in the real world somewhere.

[TheMcGuffin]

There is nothing to debunk. Results don't show any sign of "not from Earth". If we look for natural abundances for magnesium, we will find that numbers slightly differs from posted in OPs link:

78.99% ²⁴Mg

10.0% ²⁵Mg

11.01% ²⁶Mg

(Magnesium Technology: Metallurgy, Design Data, Applications, Horst E. Friedrich, Barry Leslie Mordike, Springer, 2006, page 64.)

So, differences between data for AH-1 and earthly abundances for Mg isotopes are less than 0.5%.

Well, BMK, when it comes to something like this, I'd rather leave it to experts who I regard as neutral, objective and unbiased, and also knew a lot about alloys. I'm sorry, but you don't quite fit the bill there.

Let's see if anything comes of this. There have been lots of similar stories in the past that just faded away and went nowhere.

Edited July 13, 2011 by TheMcGuffin

[bison]

We see from the chart in the linked article that the Roswell sample has a magnesium isotope ratio which deviates from the norm by twice as much as a meteorite (chondrite). Of course a meteorite is very likely not from Earth, but from the asteroid belt. A figure twice as far from the standard ratio might reasonably be considered to indicate something from even farther afield, such as a different solar system. I wouldn't mind knowing the chain of custody of the samples, though science generally tends to operate on the honors system. I have some serious doubts that even a dedicated hoaxer would be able to produce an an alloy of aluminum and other metals, including magnesium, wherein magnesium isotope ratios were so far from the norm. I doubt very much that this is simply a case of lying about the results of lab tests. What would be the point, really? If additional tests are not done, the results will remain questionable. If other tests are done, these will either confirm or deny the anomalous isotope ratio. If the latter, the story will fall apart. However, if other labs confirm the results of the first test, we will have, it seems, solid, if rather obscure confirmation of an off world civilization, and a new, powerful piece of evidence supporting the Roswell UFO crash story. If it is reported that additional labs confirm the odd isotope ratios, we will, of course, need to see confirmation from all those concerned that the tests were done, and the results were as represented.

Edited July 13, 2011 by bison

[psyche101]

We see from the chart in the linked article that the Roswell sample has a magnesium isotope ratio which deviates from the norm by twice as much as a meteorite (chondrite). Of course a meteorite is very likely not from Earth, but from the asteroid belt. A figure twice as far from the standard ratio might reasonably be considered to indicate something from even farther afield, such as a different solar system. I wouldn't mind knowing the chain of custody of the samples, though science generally tends to operate on the honors system. I have some serious doubts that even a dedicated hoaxer would be able to produce an an alloy of aluminum and other metals, including magnesium, wherein magnesium isotope ratios were so far from the norm. I doubt very much that this is simply a case of lying about the results of lab tests. What would be the point, really? If additional tests are not done, the results will remain questionable. If other tests are done, these will either confirm or deny the anomalous isotope ratio. If the latter, the story will fall apart. However, if other labs confirm the results of the first test, we will have, it seems, solid, if rather obscure confirmation of an off world civilization, and a new, powerful piece of evidence supporting the Roswell UFO crash story. If it is reported that additional labs confirm the odd isotope ratios, we will, of course, need to see confirmation from all those concerned that the tests were done, and the results were as represented.

Now that is an interesting take. Like the search for life. I was watching a debate some time ago that I mentioned here about the situation if we did find life on say Europa or Titan. The signatures this life carries may not be proof of ET. If it carries the same composition as life on earth, it may be a better model of proof for the hypothesis of Panspermia rather than ET life. If this is genuine, and did come from a chondrite that originated in a distant part of space, it may well offer some clues to a makeup that is different to our own. I suddenly see the find as intensely interesting considering this, and removing the Roswell tale.

[skyeagle409]

I suddenly see the find as intensely interesting considering this, and removing the Roswell tale.

On the contrary, the fact that there are two Air Force stories in effect to this very day, proves that the Roswell incident is not a tale by any means. In addition military and civilian personnel at Wright-Patterson AFB, have also confirmed that the Roswell material they examined was not of this earth.

[psyche101]

On the contrary, the fact that there are two Air Force stories in effect to this very day, proves that the Roswell incident is not a tale by any means. In addition military and civilian personnel at Wright-Patterson AFB, have also confirmed that the Roswell material they examined was not of this earth.

Have you read the thread title?

Why would you try to yet again engage me in pointless banter that we cannot agree on? Your credulous nature makes it impossible for me to so much as take you seriously anymore. We have discussed the reports at great length, until you read them there is no point in furthering this conversation as you just make no sense where they are concerned.

Now, the thread title is referring to the object found at Roswell, which has not been proven to be anything special as yet, some interesting characteristics have been suggested. Did this fragment get bent, and then return to original shape? No, so why is it connected to the campfire tale of Aliens in Roswell? Purely due to location, nothing more. That part of the tale is definitely hype, and such craziness I fear may hold back what may turn out to be a great discovery. This is where the ETH becomes damaging to progress. You Roswell junkies should just take a step back and see what the results herald. This may well be an important clue to other life. Possibly an actual answer that we have been seeking, not a fantasy of Aliens under the Presidents desk. It is a shame that nonsense has already infected this find.

[TheMcGuffin]

Have you read the thread title?

Why would you try to yet again engage me in pointless banter that we cannot agree on? Your credulous nature makes it impossible for me to so much as take you seriously anymore. We have discussed the reports at great length, until you read them there is no point in furthering this conversation as you just make no sense where they are concerned.

Now, the thread title is referring to the object found at Roswell, which has not been proven to be anything special as yet, some interesting characteristics have been suggested. Did this fragment get bent, and then return to original shape? No, so why is it connected to the campfire tale of Aliens in Roswell? Purely due to location, nothing more. That part of the tale is definitely hype, and such craziness I fear may hold back what may turn out to be a great discovery. This is where the ETH becomes damaging to progress. You Roswell junkies should just take a step back and see what the results herald. This may well be an important clue to other life. Possibly an actual answer that we have been seeking, not a fantasy of Aliens under the Presidents desk. It is a shame that nonsense has already infected this find.

It could be several things: another hoax or fake (boring); debris from a plane crash (boring); debris from some other conventional object (very boring); debris from a spaceship (exciting); or maybe a meteorite of very unusual composition (slight chance).

Edited July 14, 2011 by TheMcGuffin

[skyeagle409]

Have you read the thread title?

Yes, and that is why I added the folks of WPAFB, because they came to the same conclusion as well, so their accounts are pertinent too.

[psyche101]

It could be several things: another hoax or fake (boring); debris from a plane crash (boring); debris from some other conventional object (very boring); debris from a spaceship (exciting); or maybe a meteorite of very unusual composition (slight chance).

Exactly! Well said. If it can be determined to have a technical function, the ball park may well change, but for now, this remains an interesting anomaly worthwhile of further consideration.

Edited July 14, 2011 by psyche101

[psyche101]

Yes, and that is why I added the folks of WPAFB, because they came to the same conclusion as well, so their accounts are pertinent too.

Can you please post the conclusions that they came to with regards to this metallic artifact. That is what this thread pertains to.

[Varelse]

Ive recently seen first hand how some technologies most of us understand are simply way beyond others' comprehension. And I can also imagine rural 1940s America, and I can still imagine a silvery skinned weather balloon that went too high crashed in that field.

[Ashotep]

I always figured Roswell was a real UFO incident that the government tried to cover up.

[bison]

I don't think there is too much chance of a meteorite, chondrite or otherwise, being mistaken for shreds of an aluminum alloy, which is what the sample under discussion has been analyzed to be. Even the metallic asteroids are predominantly iron and nickel, not aluminum.

[Varelse]

Ive recently seen first hand how some technologies most of us understand are simply way beyond others' comprehension.

So I can also imagine rural 1940s America, a silvery skinned weather balloon that went too high crashed in that field and to this day the same exact thing could happen in any rural area with 2010 technology and still get the same reaction those first people got all those years ago.

[DONTEATUS]

Its got to be all the alum,tin foil that we make our hats out of ! How eles can one travel to the Stars ?I have mine on right this moment!

[psyche101]

I don't think there is too much chance of a meteorite, chondrite or otherwise, being mistaken for shreds of an aluminum alloy, which is what the sample under discussion has been analyzed to be. Even the metallic asteroids are predominantly iron and nickel, not aluminum.

How disappointing, I thought we were going to have a good conversation about the possibilities in deep space for a minute there.

If this is a different type of bollide, from a place where conditions differ to earth, I think it is quite possible that we have a good discovery, and considering that we know little of the processes that go on in different types of stars, I do feel it very premature to make such an assumption. For all we know this may be common fallout from a Magnetar maybe something like a coalesced collection of pre-solar grains. We did just find a star "shooting" water bullets into space. No doubt explains the formation of some comets. However, reading the article back again, my excitement is waning quickly. There is a specific agenda in the article that is designed to push the Roswell ETH, sadly I feel my initial suspicions were correct. From the link:

• Furthermore, this debris was found near the location where pieces from an alleged flying saucer were discovered outside of Roswell in 1947.
  
• So when he moved to Roswell, he decided to put his expertise to the test and take a shot at investigating the most famous UFO incident of all time, the crash at Roswell.
  
• He says his main goal was to find some physical evidence. (well, he has achieved that!)
  
• He was surprised to find an area that was similar to what witnesses had described
  
• at looked aluminum. This was strange because there were no indications of any sort of aluminum objects in the area. He occasionally found tin, which would come from parts of tin roofs blowing around, and some nails. (I take it in Texas Soft drink and Beer never comes in cans?)
  
• He also found some aluminum buttons that appear to be the type used on military fatigues in the later 40’s. If that is the case it demonstrates that the military was in the area.
  
• To get some help he went to the Roswell International UFO Museum and Research Center.
  
• He showed the material to the museum’s director, Julie Shuster, and was able to meet with researcher Don Schmitt.
  
• This further inspired Kimbler to get some isotope work done on the piece. (Because the material was normally used in construction, and not foil? What? How they hell did that discovery inspire a quest for Isotopes??)
  
• Bigelow Aerospace showed some interest in helping Kimbler with his analysis, but after spending months with little results, Kimbler had to go elsewhere. (anyone else suddenly reminded of the Starchild Skull quest? Just keep trying Unis till you get the one that says what you want them to?)
  
• Another important aspect of the material being aluminum and showing unearthly origins is that aluminum must be manufactured. (They can confidently say as an absolute, that this was manufactured can they?)
  
• Could he have the smoking gun to prove we are being visited by an intelligent civilization from another planet, and that they crashed outside of Roswell in 1947?
  

There is more about the Roswell incident in this article than there is about the meteorite. If there is no agenda, I'm a Monkeys Uncle.

[DONTEATUS]

We could all in here from the U of M go to Roswell N.M right now and spend the rest of our days and nights with every known type of dector devise ,digging,searching,ect. We will all come back with nothing more than a Hot sunburn,boreing story about Roswell,and maybe some scrap alumn,Empty Beer cans to bee sure ! Maybe a bit of humor and knowledge that we came together to search for nothing more than a Dusty plot in the New Mexico planes.

I think I will pass on this trip. Its Hot enough in Texas.

Until someone finds a Tri-corder,Plasmaneturon Power plant,Or working Gizzmo that makes a 26 inch Pizza thats to die for in one mili-sec outta thin air,Im walking back to the Chow Line.

[Lilly]

Frankly, even if the piece of debris tested is of an unusual aluminium alloy that (in and of itself) simply isn't enough to prove ET origin.

[bison]

Frankly, even if the piece of debris tested is of an unusual aluminium alloy that (in and of itself) simply isn't enough to prove ET origin.

The alloy may not be especially unusual. Its possible that an aluminum alloy from another planet could resemble one from Earth. This isn't the point of the openminds article, linked in the OP.

The author of that article, though not a professional scientist, and having a tendency to strongly suspect a connection to the Roswell crash and extraterrestrials, did a very objectively-minded thing. He had the metal fragments analyzed in a certified laboratory. The results indicated an unusual combination of isotopes of magnesium, not expected to be found on Earth*. When faced with these results, the discoverer of the material resolved to continue the objective scientific process, and have the samples analyzed at other labs, in order to confirm the initial results. As long as he is continues in this direction, I believe he should be forgiven his enthusiasm and tendency to advocate for a particular, and fascinating, possibility. *Isotopes have nothing to do with the metallic constituents of an alloy. All isotopes of magnesium are still magnesium, and all stable isotopes make the same metallic contribution to an alloy.)

Edited July 14, 2011 by bison

[Mentalcase]

Does anyone else remember how many times this sorta conclusion (not exactly the same) on tested materials, has been proposed? I don't buy into this article at all. I know some people are adamant about Roswell and the chance of materials proving the ETH. Lilly pointed out the obviousness that we have to remember.

How many pieces of rock are on this Earth? How many of those rocks, fell from space? How many of those rocks, test positive for non-terrestrial sources? I would say it's extremely premature to state that certain materials do not exist on Earth. All the material we see, use, etc., came from outer space at one point. Whether is was billions of years ago, or five minutes ago. I can find rocks all day long that test positive for materials not regularly scattered in abundance.

As much I as believe Roswell was a UFO (that opinion comes from the government's first press release). I still think it's WAY TOO LATE to try and resolve it.

[TheMcGuffin]

This is and Landsat picture of the alleged debris field--one of the alleged debris fields anyway:

Kimbler claims the dark circular area with the trail behind it is where The Thing crashed.

http://www.openminds.tv/test-confirms-roswell-debris-733/