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'Reasonable force' or 'murder'?

burglars shot reasonable force murder

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127 replies to this topic

#1    ouija ouija

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

http://www.dailymail...anksgiving.html

Friends and relatives say the teens should not have been shot dead. This is the eighth time his home has been robbed and the dead teens were more than likely responsible for at least some of those crimes.

I think if you trespass you have to accept that anything could happen to you ..... that's a risk you choose to take. From the article, I think he was perfectly justified in what he did. What do you think?

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#2    smokedog

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:25 PM

anyone breaks into my place i would do the same. how did he know they weren't gonna kill him? u do the crime u take ur punishment. if they didn't break in they would still be alive.


#3    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:32 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 26 November 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

http://www.dailymail...anksgiving.html

Friends and relatives say the teens should not have been shot dead. This is the eighth time his home has been robbed and the dead teens were more than likely responsible for at least some of those crimes.

I think if you trespass you have to accept that anything could happen to you ..... that's a risk you choose to take. From the article, I think he was perfectly justified in what he did. What do you think?

I tend to agree with you. If you are in your own home/property, you should be able to defend yourself from any percieved risk. Having said that, if this case was in my country, the shooter would be facing 10 years in jail because you can only defend yourself with the same force that the criminal is using.


#4    Grey14

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:32 PM

No he was not justified in killing them. He was justified in shooting them intially. But he outright murdered them after the first shot. He went so far as to perform a coup de grace on the girl. It is murder if they are incapacitated and you them shoot them again killing them. He deserves the charges he is facing.

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#5    Grey14

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:41 PM

View Postsmokedog, on 26 November 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

anyone breaks into my place i would do the same. how did he know they weren't gonna kill him? u do the crime u take ur punishment. if they didn't break in they would still be alive.

So you going to put a bullet in a young womans head if she is lying on the ground after you have already shot her several times and is no longer a threat? I am not defending what they did and I am not saying he did not have the right to shoot them intially. But something changes when you you go out of your way to make sure someone is dead, which is what this guy did.

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#6    Babe Ruth

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

He was certainly entitled to defend his home, but it does seem he over reacted a bit.  That he stashed the bodies suggests he knew that.


#7    Taun

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:47 PM

I couldn't read the article because my work computer blocked it for some danged fool reason...

I am a firm supporter of the "Make My Day" laws allowing a person to use deadly force if necessary to defend their lives and the lives of their families...  However, if he did indeed shoot them after they were down and clearly not a threat, he is guilty (IMO) of man-slaughter at least...


#8    QuiteContrary

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:03 PM

I'm a firm believer in warning shots and scaring the living sh* out of someone with everything you got.
It sounds like he had  opportunity for a warning shot. Yet when the kid laughed at his his jammed gun and didn't run what did he think? This guy is wacked? and shot him.

However, shooting a second time in the face because the kid laughed at you, is not even close to protecting your home. But it's like when cops beat up suspects after a chase. It's wrong but it happens, there is a psychological reason for it, and no it is not "because they are racist or bullies or love to beat up people".


#9    Ryu

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:08 PM

Butchery and moronic vigilantism...this was no longer anything close to defense.
He was living out some cowboy and indian fantasy....he deserves jail time.

They were down, he could have fled but he seen them as nothing more than targets. I have no sympathy for him.


#10    Grey14

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

View PostQuiteContrary, on 26 November 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I'm a firm believer in warning shots and scaring the living sh* out of someone with everything you got.
It sounds like he had  opportunity for a warning shot. Yet when the kid laughed at his his jammed gun and didn't run what did he think? This guy is wacked? and shot him.

The girl is the one that laughed at him.
The gun jammed after he had already shot the girl once and she had fallen down the stairs and thats when she laughed at him. And then this happened from the article

He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'.
'Smith described it as "a good clean finishing shot",' according to the compliant, and acknowledged he had fired 'more shots than (he) needed to'.


That sir is murder


Edited by Grey14, 26 November 2012 - 08:41 PM.

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#11    Professor Buzzkill

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:45 PM

View PostRyu, on 26 November 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Butchery and moronic vigilantism...this was no longer anything close to defense.
He was living out some cowboy and indian fantasy....he deserves jail time.

They were down, he could have fled but he seen them as nothing more than targets. I have no sympathy for him.

The cliche cowboy story where you are at home alone when criminals break in.... i must have missed that one,


#12    Hasina

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 08:58 PM

I'm all for defense of the home, including the use of deadly force, but when it's clear you've got the upper hand, don't kill someone. Then again, I don't have much sympathy for people who die in the act of a crime, especially ones that can end up getting you killed.

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#13    QuiteContrary

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:22 PM

View PostGrey14, on 26 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

The girl is the one that laughed at him.
The gun jammed after he had already shot the girl once and she had fallen down the stairs and thats when she laughed at him. And then this happened from the article

He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'.
'Smith described it as "a good clean finishing shot",' according to the compliant, and acknowledged he had fired 'more shots than (he) needed to'.


That sir is murder

He shot both and they each tumbled down the stairs.

Yes, it was the girl who laughed at him after he had shot her, my mistake. But I said what he did was wrong, yet, and I don't know his specific psychological make-up, excessive force is a result sometimes of high test situations, there is a psychological reasoning for it. I still said it was wrong, and not in defense of his home anymore.

I'd have used warning shots right passed their heads! Killing, no matter why, is a tough one, and one I don't understand myself. If I had a lot of break-ins and expected more, I'd do all else I could so as to hopefully, never have to shoot someone.

I've been in a similar situation, it is terrifying. And I had no exit either. Did I wish I had a gun, yup! But not to shoot them, hopefully.

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Edited by QuiteContrary, 26 November 2012 - 09:25 PM.


#14    DieChecker

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:23 PM

View PostGrey14, on 26 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

The girl is the one that laughed at him.
The gun jammed after he had already shot the girl once and she had fallen down the stairs and thats when she laughed at him. And then this happened from the article

He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'.
'Smith described it as "a good clean finishing shot",' according to the compliant, and acknowledged he had fired 'more shots than (he) needed to'.

That sir is murder
I going to agree. I'm pro-gun and believe firmly in home and personal defense, but this guy is an idiot that went too far. You shoot, retreat, and call 911. Repeat as needed. What you do not do is Hunt down the intruders. You simply defend where you are.

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#15    Ryu

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:27 PM

It's so easy to just pull the trigger, isn't it? See the person you are about to kill as nothing more than an animal..a "target".
What sort of mindset does it take to cripple an attacker then pump more shots into them then deliver the "clean shot" as if blowing the head off a dog?

Sometimes I wonder if our society is even mature enough to handle the responsibility of using guns?





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