Humans in SE Europe were of a different sort

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Then those in west europe.

http://popular-archa...say-researchers

Humans in southeastern Europe were never geographically isolated from Asia and Africa by glaciers, and according to these researchers, this resulted in different evolutionary forces acting on early human populations in this region. The BH-1 hominin was an example of one of these populations.

Edited February 8, 2013 by the L

[Clarakore]

I don't want the ice to melt but what will we find underneath when it does?

So can someone read this and give me the gist of it all?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

So can someone read this and give me the gist of it all?

I already did.

Humans in southeastern Europe were never geographically isolated from Asia and Africa by glaciers, and according to these researchers, this resulted in different evolutionary forces acting on early human populations in this region (then those in west europe who were geographicly isolated). The BH-1 hominin ( found in Serbia) was an example of one of these populations.

Edited February 8, 2013 by the L

[Clarakore]

I already did.

Humans in southeastern Europe were never geographically isolated from Asia and Africa by glaciers, and according to these researchers, this resulted in different evolutionary forces acting on early human populations in this region (then those in west europe who were geographicly isolated). The BH-1 hominin ( found in Serbia) was an example of one of these populations.

In English and what exactly does it mean? How were they different? Come on what you have offered so far is just saying they are different but now how...

[Big Bad Voodoo]

In English and what exactly does it mean? How were they different? Come on what you have offered so far is just saying they are different but now how...

Since Im not biologist or paleontologist this could be hilarious discription. Also since my mother language isnt English and you didnt understand article in English I doubt that I can be helpful.

But to be social, easygoing and friendly I could try.

It means that eraly human on Balkan were different from early human in West europe. Why? Because they were not isolated and didnt evolve and developed indentpendently as those humans in west Europe traped by ice glaciers.

Edited February 8, 2013 by the L

[+ouija ouija]

You two are a great double act!

[Big Bad Voodoo]

You two are a great double act!

Its like one of those conversation in Pulp fiction. Only not that cool.

Edited February 8, 2013 by the L

[Clarakore]

Since Im not biologist or palaetnologist this could be hilarious discription. Also since my mother language isnt English and you didnt understand article in English I doubt that I can be helpfull.

But to be social, easygoing and frindly I could try.

It means that eraly human on Balkan were different from early human in West europe. Why? Because they were not isolated and didnt evolve and developed indentpendently as those humans in west Europe traped by ice glaciers.

I understand that perfectly my friend, you and the article both stated why they were different....but how were they different?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

BH-1 had no Neanderthal-derived characteristics.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

With a complete lack of derived Neandertal traits, these specimens are distinct from the more westerly penecontemporary hominins. Although the sample size is small, and consists of unassociated crania and mandibles, this pattern is consistent with a lack of isolation during glaciations that resulted in different morphological outcomes from those at the west of the continent. In that context, the Balkan Peninsula could be part of the geographic spread of a Southwest Asian “source” population [9] for the purported successive repopulation of Europe in the Middle Pleistocene.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054608

[Big Bad Voodoo]

While in West Europe humans have had neanderthal traits Balkan people were civilized.

Which is preserved to this day.

Edited February 8, 2013 by the L

[+ouija ouija]

While in West Europe humans have had neanderthal traits Balkan people were civilized.

Which is preserved to this day.

Did you just add that yourself?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Did you just add that yourself?

Yes.

That was a joke....Me out of order.

[Helen of Annoy]

Did you just add that yourself?

He shouldn’t have, since

one of the most important Neanderthal finding sites is in Croatia, near Krapina (yes, town is really called Krapina ).

http://www.culturenet.hr/default.aspx?id=23639

Of course, the nations more to the south and to the east, like, say, Greeks or Bulgarians, are different story, but still they were not outside the possible Neanderthal interbreeding area (see map on the link above).

Logically, more east or south you go, greater the chance of seeing Asiatic or African influences. It's not just about glaciers, it's about constant migrations and interbreedings with no "pure" or "original" populations left anywhere in Europe. Especially not in Balkans, that was part of Ottoman Empire for 500 years. Unlike Balkan, Croatia was the European border, never part of that empire.

There are no national genomes, only more and less prevalent mixtures, but certain political options are ignorant of that obvious fact, probably because they need to feel special. Oh, they are special. Specially transparent, to be more precise.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

He shouldn’t have, since

one of the most important Neanderthal finding sites is in Croatia, near Krapina (yes, town is really called Krapina ).

I would rather choose Vindija cave instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindija_Cave

[Helen of Annoy]

I would rather choose Vindija cave instead.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Vindija_Cave

Choose both and add some loyalty to the heritage you claim you belong to.

(Balkan Croatia? Really? Genetically separated from the West Europe? Why would anyone want that hilariousness to be true?)

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Choose both and add some loyalty to the heritage you claim you belong to.

That was a me out of order.

[+ouija ouija]

Was this meant to be a comedy thread?

[Helen of Annoy]

Probably not, but since it turned that way, you might as well visualize us beating each other with Pleistocene bones over our respective heads

The finding from the article is interesting, but to be honest the way Pleistocene (!) can be sensitive issue for south-east Europe is even more interesting. I deliberately avoid the word "Balkan" or I'll go ballistic again.

On a little bit more serious note, it turns out the populations today are mixed, due to migrations, but - to surprise of no one sane - the "original" genomes are still present. In other words, old populations, Illyrians for example, didn't evaporate, they simply became part of new social construct together with the newcomers.

I can't tell you how amused I'll be when genetic screening becomes cheaper and reliable genetic maps leak out. It will literally destroy the current politics in SE Europe.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Helen of Annoy

[cormac mac airt]

Probably not, but since it turned that way, you might as well visualize us beating each other with Pleistocene bones over our respective heads

The finding from the article is interesting, but to be honest the way Pleistocene (!) can be sensitive issue for south-east Europe is even more interesting. I deliberately avoid the word "Balkan" or I'll go ballistic again.

On a little bit more serious note, it turns out the populations today are mixed, due to migrations, but - to surprise of no one sane - the "original" genomes are still present. In other words, old populations, Illyrians for example, didn't evaporate, they simply became part of new social construct together with the newcomers.

I can't tell you how amused I'll be when genetic screening becomes cheaper and reliable genetic maps leak out. It will literally destroy the current politics in SE Europe.

Politicians won't care about genetic maps unless they can put their own spin on what it all means. The article itself is only saying that whatever line of human the BH-1 remains belonged to, it wasn't likely Neanderthal, but apparently not us (HSS) either. So possibly either Homo heidelbergensis before a split (if true) into Neanderthals and Homo sapiens or (unmentioned in the article) a member of Homo erectus or some other as yet unknown human line. None of which is going to help in making southeast Europe, specifically, in any way special where we (Homo sapiens) are concerned. The timeframe is well before we existed. As to the genomes you're referring to, it should be pointed out that they only apply to AMH/Homo sapiens sapiens from no further back than c.40,500 BP. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the timeframe from the article, circa 397,000 to 525,000 BP.

cormac

[coolguy]

I guess they where driffent human race

[Helen of Annoy]

Politicians won't care about genetic maps unless they can put their own spin on what it all means. The article itself is only saying that whatever line of human the BH-1 remains belonged to, it wasn't likely Neanderthal, but apparently not us (HSS) either. So possibly either Homo heidelbergensis before a split (if true) into Neanderthals and Homo sapiens or (unmentioned in the article) a member of Homo erectus or some other as yet unknown human line. None of which is going to help in making southeast Europe, specifically, in any way special where we (Homo sapiens) are concerned. The timeframe is well before we existed. As to the genomes you're referring to, it should be pointed out that they only apply to AMH/Homo sapiens sapiens from no further back than c.40,500 BP. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the timeframe from the article, circa 397,000 to 525,000 BP.

cormac

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough:

The very reason why I chose to post in this thread was linking Pleistocene finding from the OP to contemporary gene situation.

But your post will be useful to guys from the page 1.

Politicians in south-east Europe are scared ****less of possible objective generic maps, because you can hardly spin the fact that you’re not genetically different than your enemy, that populations in certain areas share more than mutual animosity, that modern national borders don't match genetic distribution etc. but it's all - thank god for small favours - off-topic.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Helen of Annoy

[Abramelin]

L, this thread makes me think of this post of mine:

Haplogroup I-M253 arose from haplogroup I-M170, which appears ancient in Europe. Haplogroup I-M253 has been estimated to be some 15,000 years old. It is suggested that it initially dispersed from Denmark.

http://en.wikipedia....roup_I1_(Y-DNA)

http://en.wikipedia....group_I_(Y-DNA)

Denmark? It could have been all over Doggerland at that time.

http://www.unexplain...c=179840&st=825

I had the idea the survivors of the flooding of Doggerland may have fled along the Rhine and Danube to the Balkan, but that must have happened around 8150 BP/6150 BCE.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Abramelin

[Big Bad Voodoo]

From Doggerland trough Danube to Black sea. I saw your post earlier in other thread. Its interesting. But didnt know what to say. Maybe we would found more genetic evidence on shores of Black sea if it wasnt Black sea flooded. Maybe they were more people there. Then run. Of all flood theories Doggerland, Med, Sunderland, Black sea, meteors every 1000 years theory by 6 scientists I must say that Doggerland is among most interesting ones.

[Abramelin]

From Doggerland trough Danube to Black sea. I saw your post earlier in other thread. Its interesting. But didnt know what to say. Maybe we would found more genetic evidence on shores of Black sea if it wasnt Black sea flooded. Maybe they were more people there. Then run. Of all flood theories Doggerland, Med, Sunderland, Black sea, meteors every 1000 years theory by 6 scientists I must say that Doggerland is among most interesting ones.

The Black Sea event wasn't as catastrophic as was first thought, and it also happened much earlier:

According to a study by Giosan et al. the level in the Black Sea before the marine reconnection was 30 m below present sea level, rather than the 80 m, or lower, of the catastrophe theories. If the flood occurred at all, the sea level increase and the flooded area during the reconnection were significantly smaller than previously proposed. It also occurred earlier than initially surmised, ca. 7400 BC, rather than the originally proposed 5600 BC. Since the depth of the Bosporus, in its middle furrow, at present varies from 36 to 124 m, with an average depth of 65 m, a calculated stone age shoreline in the Black Sea lying 30 m lower than in the present day would imply that the contact with the Mediterranean may never have been broken during the Holocene, and hence that there could have been no sudden waterfall-style transgression.

A new study based on process length variation of the dinoflagellate cyst Lingulodinium machaerophorum shows no evidence for catastrophic flooding.

http://en.wikipedia....luge_hypothesis

The people living near the Black Sea didn't have to run for the hills.

The Med flooded some 5.3 millions of years ago, when the Atlantic breached through what is now the Strait of Gibraltar:

http://en.wikipedia..../Zanclean_flood

.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Abramelin