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The Incas, explorers of the Pacific


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#46    lightly

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:03 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 January 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

The people living in the Pacific were capable of doing all that, the question is only: did they arrive in Peru and settle there?

There are these legends (like the one about Naymlap) that hint at people arriving from the sea at the west coast of South America, but where is they genetic proof the really did?

.

Well, i dunno,   but  the Ainu (Japan) and the 'inca'  were recently genetically related ? The 'sailors'  could have been other than "polynesian"?  Who knows where they might have come from.. or  Originally came from ?   People keep moving around.. and if sea faring is much older than we know......... who knows?   ya know?

??  ... just something to look at about indigenous blood groups :  Attached File  Mapa_del_grupo_O.GIF   14.84K   11 downloads        


http://en.wikipedia....of_the_Americas

Edited by lightly, 11 January 2013 - 03:09 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#47    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:02 PM

View PostEverdred, on 11 January 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

I can't imagine they would do that.  "Come on, everyone, let's all sail east and maybe some day we'll find more land."  That's basically mass suicide.

I think it's much more likely that their colonization of islands involved exploratory ventures of probably just a few people at a time going out for a set period to try and find land and then returning to report their findings.

OK, I should have thought a little more before I posted that. How about one of the 'exploratory ventures' missing the island and ending up in South America, though? Every boat needs a stonemason, right? :D


#48    Abramelin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostGaribaldi, on 11 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

it is not incredible....most people believe the first thing they hear and dont seek for more information...

P.S: Finalmente alguem que fala portugues?

If that was a hint at me, read this thread.

Maybe I should have written in Portuguese instead then both you and Mario would have understood what I posted.


#49    Abramelin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostPersonFromPorlock, on 11 January 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

OK, I should have thought a little more before I posted that. How about one of the 'exploratory ventures' missing the island and ending up in South America, though? Every boat needs a stonemason, right? :D

Unless it was common knowledge among the people on the boat because it was common knowledge among the people they belonged to..


#50    Abramelin

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 04:33 PM

View Postlightly, on 11 January 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well, i dunno,   but  the Ainu (Japan) and the 'inca'  were recently genetically related ? The 'sailors'  could have been other than "polynesian"?  Who knows where they might have come from.. or  Originally came from ?   People keep moving around.. and if sea faring is much older than we know......... who knows?   ya know?

??  ... just something to look at about indigenous blood groups :  Attachment Mapa_del_grupo_O.GIF


http://en.wikipedia....of_the_Americas

I know people sailed the seas already many thousands of years ago, but what did you mean with "the Ainu (Japan) and the 'Inca'  were recently genetically related" ?


#51    lightly

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:27 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

I know people sailed the seas already many thousands of years ago, but what did you mean with "the Ainu (Japan) and the 'Inca'  were recently genetically related" ?

   ..  it's just something i heard somewhere..  Could be Wrong i guess,   sorry if so.
All i can find right now to support that statement are a couple websites...

http://oniazuma.blog...f-japanese.html
"

Also shows the Ainu People, indigenous people to Northern Japan who have their own language, custom, and cultures. Genetic Research has uncovered that the Ainu, who some believe are partly Caucasian, are in fact direct descendants of the Jomon Japanese. It also uncovers that the Ketchua People of the South American Andes, who created the Incan Empire, are genetically the closest people on earth to the Ainu, in turn meaning that the Incans are genetically identical to Jomon Japanese."



http://mathildasanth...nu-dna-studies/
"Furthermore, several HLA-A-B and HLA-B-DR-DQ haplotypes common in the Ainu, are shared with some Native American populations. These observations strongly suggest a unique place for the Ainu as descendants of some Upper Paleolithic populations of East Asia, from whom some Native Americans may have descended."

Edited by lightly, 12 January 2013 - 01:32 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#52    Abramelin

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 07:29 AM

View Postlightly, on 12 January 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

   ..  it's just something i heard somewhere..  Could be Wrong i guess,   sorry if so.
All i can find right now to support that statement are a couple websites...

http://oniazuma.blog...f-japanese.html
"

Also shows the Ainu People, indigenous people to Northern Japan who have their own language, custom, and cultures. Genetic Research has uncovered that the Ainu, who some believe are partly Caucasian, are in fact direct descendants of the Jomon Japanese. It also uncovers that the Ketchua People of the South American Andes, who created the Incan Empire, are genetically the closest people on earth to the Ainu, in turn meaning that the Incans are genetically identical to Jomon Japanese."



http://mathildasanth...nu-dna-studies/
"Furthermore, several HLA-A-B and HLA-B-DR-DQ haplotypes common in the Ainu, are shared with some Native American populations. These observations strongly suggest a unique place for the Ainu as descendants of some Upper Paleolithic populations of East Asia, from whom some Native Americans may have descended."



The Japanese documentary is a bit confusing: why did the scientist go to Peru and not to for instance Mexico or the Cherokee?

I think it's because of the fact that in Peru there still are many native Americans with 'unmixed blood'.

The article says the Ainu share the same ancestry with Native Americans, not especially with the Peruvians.

And you know, go back far enough and we end up in the Olduvai Gorge.

With possible genetic links I meant something much more recent.


#53    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 08:48 PM

This is slightly offtopic but its new and mentioned Muisca.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-20975815

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#54    docyabut2

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:17 AM

View Postlightly, on 12 January 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

   ..  it's just something i heard somewhere..  Could be Wrong i guess,   sorry if so.
All i can find right now to support that statement are a couple websites...

http://oniazuma.blog...f-japanese.html
"


Also shows the Ainu People, indigenous people to Northern Japan who have their own language, custom, and cultures. Genetic Research has uncovered that the Ainu, who some believe are partly Caucasian, are in fact direct descendants of the Jomon Japanese. It also uncovers that the Ketchua People of the South American Andes, who created the Incan Empire, are genetically the closest people on earth to the Ainu, in turn meaning that the Incans are genetically identical to Jomon Japanese."



http://mathildasanth...nu-dna-studies/
"Furthermore, several HLA-A-B and HLA-B-DR-DQ haplotypes common in the Ainu, are shared with some Native American populations. These observations strongly suggest a unique place for the Ainu as descendants of some Upper Paleolithic populations of East Asia, from whom some Native Americans may have descended."

Interesting. it is a possibility since the  Ainu were part Caucasian , the skulls of Easter Island and Peru are more elongated then the Clovis indians that were more rounder. :)

Does skull prove that the first Americans came from Europe?

Skull measurements on the remains of an isolated group of people who lived at the southern tip of Mexico's Baja California has stirred up the debate on the identity of the first Americans once again.


http://www.utexas.ed.../1stpersons.htm

Edited by docyabut2, 13 January 2013 - 12:21 AM.


#55    lightly

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 01:57 AM

Yup docyabut2 ...     i've read conflicting opinions about  Ainu ancestry .   The Baja skulls are very interesting ...   once again,  some disagreement there too ...  but  ya,   not everything is all sorted out and explained quite yet.  

from your link:  . . .  "But more recent discoveries challenge the Clovis story. In 1996, archeologists in southern Chile found weapons and tools dating back 12,500 years. In Brazil, they found some of the oldest human remains in the Americas, among them a skeleton—named Luzia—that is more than 11,000 years old.
Luzia did not look like American Indians. Instead, her facial features matched most closely with the native Aborigines in Australia. These people date back to about 60,000 years and were themselves descended from the first humans who probably originated in Africa.

The researchers believe Luzia was part of a people, referred to as "Paleoamericans," who migrated into the Americas—possibly even by boat—long before the Mongoloid people. These Paleoamericans may later have been wiped out by or interbred with Mongoloids invading from the north."

  from another link: . . .
http://news.sciencem...3/09/04-03.html
    ... "Anthropologists from Spain, Mexico, and Argentina describe newly discovered skulls from people who inhabited the Baja peninsula about 2000 years ago. The team, headed by Rolando González-José of the University of Barcelona, took detailed measurements of 33 skulls found on the tip of the peninsula and stored in two museums in Mexico and compared them to skulls from around the world. Despite their relative recency, the Baja skulls bore little resemblance to the skulls of Aztecs and other native Americans. They most resembled paleoamerican skulls, which have features in common with some South Asians and Pacific islanders."  

   ... something i wonder too is....   If sailors might have Island hopped to S. America  from far flung outposts  of  someone like..  the Japanese ( the Ainu were renowned sea farers)  or Chinese or whoever else might have been sailing around back then in S. &  S.E. Asia.     ...   i read somewhere of a Spanish chronicler mentioning Incan royalty wearing Silk.    Jade in the mouth of the deceased is another practice shared by the Chinese and Mesoamericans.   There's lots of quirky things.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#56    Abramelin

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 07:33 AM

View Postthe L, on 12 January 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

This is slightly offtopic but its new and mentioned Muisca.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-20975815

But it was a great video, nevertheless. Thanks.


#57    lightly

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:49 AM

... i think these  guara  boards are interesting. ... Chinese ships had Lee boards ( a somewhat similar concept and function )  .. European ships didn't.   And Chinese junks are still flat bottomed...   like a raft.    * i wish i could find  an example of the same idea / boards  being used  Earlier on the opposite side of the Pacific. .. or somewhere in between.

http://www.21stcentu...2003/Guara.html
" When the Conquistadores came with their highly unseaworthy ships, they found extremely seaworthy rafts off the Andean coast. These rafts could, for example, land unharmed through the surf, and could carry Indian merchants and their whole extended families, along with 20 tons or more of cargo on board. The Spaniards recorded that the Incas remembered times when large organized flotillas of rafts would set out on direct exploring expeditions to very remote islands."


“In 1953, Emilio Estrada of Guayaquil arranged for a small test raft to be constructed like the Kon-tiki, of nine balsa logs lashed together and covered by a bamboo deck. Likewise, for navigation, a square sail was hoisted on its usual bi-pod mast in native fashion, and similarly six guaras were inserted between the logs, two in the extreme bow and two in the stern. No paddles, rudder, or steering-oar were carried on the raft, which was launched from the open coast of Playas, Ecuador, with a crew of four” (Kon-tiki, p. 109).

“The whole secret of how the Incas could sail their rafts into the wind was rediscovered and, like all ingenious inventions, the trick was exceedingly simple once it was known. It was found, by a crew consisting of Estrada, the two archaeologists Reed and Skjolsvold, and [Heyerdahl] that by quickly turning the sail and equally rapidly reversing the ratio of submerged guara surface respectively fore and aft of the mast, at the very critical moment when the turning raft was taking the wind straight abeam, then the raft would willingly turn all about and resume a new course into the contrary wind. [Kon-tiki, p. 121].” (See figure.)
So, Heyerdahl had been wrong, but his correction of that error further strengthened the argument against the isolationists: Early man had been even more mobile than optimists like Heyerdahl had thought. By using ideas, concepts of physics, moments around a pivot, and the like, they had freed themselves from helplessly drifting in the direction that the winds and the currents pushed them.

Edited by lightly, 14 January 2013 - 01:08 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#58    Abramelin

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 09:22 PM

This is something that never fails to intrigue me:


Posted Image

Sukuh (Indonesian: Candi Sukuh) is a 15th-century Javanese-Hindu temple (candi) that is located on the western slope of Mount Lawu (elev. 910 m (3000 ft)) on the border between Central and East Java provinces.

The central pyramid of the complex sits at the rear of the highest of three terraces. Originally, worshippers would have accessed the complex through a gateway at the western or lowest terrace. To the left of the gate is a carving of a monster eating a man, birds in a tree, and a dog, which is thought to be a chronogram representing 1437 CE, the likely date of the temple's consecration.

The main structure of Sukuh temple is like no other ancient edifice; it is a truncated pyramid reminiscent of a Maya monument and surrounded by monoliths and meticulously carved life-sized figures.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukuh



Posted Image

An ushnu is a pyramid-shaped, terraced structure that was used by the Incas to preside at the most important ceremonies of the Tawantinsuyu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushnu


The Inka ushnu was of great importance in the ideological domination of the Wamani in the Central Sierra of the Chinchaysuyu during the expansion of the empire. Based on my recent researches of the tampus of Huanuco Pampa, Taparaku, Chakamarka and Pumpu. I propose that the ushnu initially served to receive offerings, specially liquids following a ceremonial calendar. Later, the Inka superimposed astronomical observation functions, which demonstrates that several of the Inka great tampu were planned according to both the location of the ushnu and specific astronomical alignments following a possible model of radial astronomical space organization.

http://www.scielo.cl...ipt=sci_arttext



.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 January 2013 - 09:28 PM.


#59    Everdred

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 08:10 AM

Just stumbled upon a recent genetics study that has given some evidence for Amerindian genetic influence on Easter Islanders predating European contact.  Here's a news link from the time of its presentation 2011:

http://www.telegraph...ican-roots.html

And here is the full journal article published last year:

http://rstb.royalsoc...7/1590/812.full


Basically they tested two sets of samples, one which had been collected in 1971 and frozen, and another collected in 2008.  They restricted the sampling to people with documented lineages to avoid picking up markers from modern mixing.  Thus they can be almost certain that the Amerindian genetic contribution predates the slave trade of the 19th century, and that it probably predates all European contact (given the possibility that a European vessel might bring some Amerindians along with it).

They performed three types of tests: mtDNA, Y-DNA, and HLA.  For both sets of samples they found mtDNA to be exclusively Polynesian, while the Y-DNA was mostly Polynesian with a few samples having European haplotypes.  But the HLA revealed traces of Amerindian ancestry.  The first set revealed alleles exclusive to Amerindians, and most concentrated in the northern Peru/Ecuador/Colombia region (fitting with the idea of Inca contact).  The second set revealed different alleles than the first, but which were still exclusive to Amerindians.  But these are most concentrated in the southern reaches of the continent, in Chile/Argentina/Southern Brazil.  So this might suggest that contact occurred at multiple times with different groups.

The authors also noted a study from 2007 which found that chicken remains, dated to 1300-1400 and found in Southern Chile, carried mtDNA typical of Polynesian chickens.  So it seems there is a growing body of evidence for contact between Polynesia and South America, including food (chicken, sweet potato) and human genetics.


#60    Harte

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 10:42 PM

View PostProfessor Buzzkill, on 08 January 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

I think there is ample evidence that South American people interacted with polynesians. This is because the staple food for most polynesians is the sweet potato, which is native to South America. So far no solid theory has been made as to how polynesians had sweet potato since at least 700 AD. Maybe there was a meeting of two cultures on Easter Island?



http://en.wikipedia....ki/Sweet_potato
The sweet potato makes a good argument for some sort of contact, but it proves nothing because, though the plant is usually propagated through cuttings, the fact is, it can be propagated through seeds.  But floating is not the only way to get seeds across an ocean.  Birds do that too.

Problem is, in either case there should be sweet potatoes on Pacific Islands in between.  AFAIK, there are not.

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