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Does god have free will?


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#46    shadowhive

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:00 PM

View PostKarlis, on 02 September 2012 - 02:54 PM, said:

Neither of the choices you present here are actual teachings from Scripture.That said, most mainline Christian denomination do teach variations of what you post.

As is all too often with your posts, you tell half a story.

Ok, if neither are actual teachings from scripture do you care to share what the teaching is?

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#47    JGirl

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:28 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 02 September 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

You probably have a clear inner picture of what you feel god is, but the description you have given doesnt contain enough information to transmit that understanding to me.

of course i have a clear understanding of what i think god is. it's my 'thought' afterall. it isn't my intention to make you understand it. you asked if we believe god has free will and i answered that question. i don't feel it's necessary to convince you of my belief.



To me, arguing that god cant have free will because free will is a human conceptual construct and label,  is like saying a snake can't be black because the colour black is a human conceptual construct  and label. Yes it is, but a snake can still be black or not black. And a non human entity can have, or not have, free will.

ok let me rephrase it. instead of human use the word mortal. there, easier?

As an aside, do you think apes dolphins etc will evolve a sense of self awareness, as they evolve human level sapience? What about an artificial intelligence with human level intelligence and sapience? Will it have an understanding of self/nonself ie a sense of self awareness? Will it ask, "who am I? What is my purpose in being etc?"

i think apes and dolphins already have some sense of self. they are social creatures, and i believe in order to be a social creature you must have a sense of individuality. please don't ask me to digress to explain that cuz i have only had one cup of coffee so far today

ok, in a nutshell.
god is a force, not a 'person'. i believe god is made up of all of our consciousness. not god's own consciousness. god is not an entity sitting somewhere having a tea and thinking about stuff. i do not believe god manipulates or interferes in any way with things that go on here with us mortal beings.
that is the simplistic version of my belief but this thread is about whether i believe that god has free will, not who or what i believe god is.

Ps, if any other readers want to throw in an opinion on these questions, Id be fascinated to hear some different views.



#48    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 02 September 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

I'm not saying it coudn't offer something and I'm certainly not saying we shou;dn't help other peoples. What I am saying is we have to be very, very careful about how we go about it. Something that could improve our lives, might not necessarily improve the lives of another race. For instance, we might encounter a race with increased sensititvity to certain wavelengths, in which case our very technology would be unintentionally) harmful to them. That's just one example and there'd be many, many others.

So I think we have to be very careful about how we go about such 'help' because while we think we could be helping, we could end up doing the opposite. Any race that has achieved such advances would also be aware that such intervention has to be done with great care.



I'm not surprised you empathise with the vulcans, due to your dim view of emotions.

Again, though great care must be taken. To use a Star Trek example to make my point. Imagine the Vulcans went to the Klingons and tried to pass on their 'religion'. How do you think the Klingons would react to that?



Well if such a thing is true, I must say it's done a terrible job of it.



Such altering is rather dangerous. There's a right way of going about it and there's a wrong way of goig about it. History has proven that we seem to prefer doing it the 'wrong' way, which ooften results in lose of life. I'd rather that not happen again.



I agree in that sesne we are better off.

Do I think that needs to happen though? To an extent. Most moden religions do need to evolve, because they are rapidly becoming outdated and stuck in the past. But I honestly think we'd be better off just shaking them off altogether. Maybe something new would be better, but I dunno.



And the only way of solving those problems is a common religion?

I agree with a lot of this. human history and the colonial period demonstrates  the problem. And i think startrek was influenced by this history, But times are changing a bit Today there is a more interventist view, partly in response to more modern understandings about human sociology and cultures.
I imagine the klingons would react violently. Hardly a surprise. In startrek ALL cultural responses were valued. In practice some are more positive than others. I tended to see the klingons as galactic bully boys. I think the viulcans and klingons were meant to represent the two alternate aspects of human nature. Our primeaval evolved responses, and those we are evolving as rational and self aware beings.
Perhaps  god has not done a great job. The "proof" wil be whether we survive the next couple of centuries and do manage to get off world.  
The altering i was speaking of comes from internal adjustment and is inevitable when two different cultures clash, especially where one has a clear technological advantage.

Humans cant shake religious belief while we think as we are evolved to do. It is inhernt in how we think and in our language . We are programmed from birth to  relate to our environment in this way.

No  not necessarily a common religion, that was a different point. A religion or form of spirtituality which works for educated modern, inteligent beings with a great database of knowledge and a scientific understanding of the world. A religion or sense of spirituality which enables us to be as happy content and adjusted as christianity (as one example) enabled people to be for 2000 years, and as earlier religions worked for people prior to christianity. Less tha 10% of modern humans claim to be atheists. All the rest acknowledge either a god or a spiritual element in their lives and in their view of the world. But today it doesnt seem to work as effectively as it once did. And in the  material west, suicide and depression are among the highest causes of death  and unhappiness, It really seems that humans (unless they are  physically reconstructed) cant live full lives without a spiritual/religious element,   perhaps to make sense of their lives.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#49    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:43 PM

Thanks for your last reply, j girl. That made sense to me, and i can understand what you are getting at.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#50    Karlis

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:45 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 02 September 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

As is all too often with your posts, you tell half a story.

Ok, if neither are actual teachings from scripture do you care to share what the teaching is?
Shadowhive, you have been on UM a long time. Perhaps you simply have not read any of my previous posts on this very subject. Below are a few of the many posts I have made on this theme. Why not do a word search through my posts, if you are really interested in my thoughts.

Regards,
Karlis




View PostKarlis, on 21 March 2008 - 12:06 PM, said:

QUOTE (itsnotoutthere @ Mar 21 2008, 10:04 PM)
So by that definition if you believe in the above & your lifelong partner or wife & children did not share your beliefs & say you were all killed in a car smash, then presumably you would accend to heaven, & your loved ones would decend to hell spending an eternity in physical agony.
Would you still be in a state of bliss in heaven knowing this?
Would you still want to belong to that exclusive club?
-=-=-=-


(Karlis replies)
Well, what you write may well be what is believed by some "Christian believers". My take is quite different, and I don't expect too many people to believe what I believe. So -- taking a deep breath -- here are my thoughts on your scenario:
* The whole family killed in the car smash remain dead till Jesus returns.
* At Christ's return, the believer is resurrected as an immortal spirit being (thus becoming born-again child of God the Father), and meets Jesus "in the clouds".  They all descend upon the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem.
* The resurrected, born-again children of God (now spirit beings) will "rule" the nations of the Earth for 1000 years.
* The rest of the dead remain dead (without any consciousness) during this 1000 years.
* After the 1000 year period, all other humans who ever lived are resurrected back to life, as mortal humans. They will be given total knowledge of the past history, and full memory of the role they lived out in their earlier life.
* From that point on, all these resurrected humans will have to make a choice: either to live according to God's way of life, or to choose otherwise. This is what I believe is the "time of judgment" -- their one and only time to choose "salvation" (eternal life as spirit beings); or to knowingly choose the second death.
* After an indeterminate period of time, those who have accepted God's way are also resurrected as spirit beings (children of God). The rest of mandkind remain as mortals. This planet then will be set on fire, and will burn till all is burned; and when all oxygen is consumed, the fire ends. This is the second death in the lake of fire for those who are left behind.
* Then "the new earth" -- this same planet renewed by God, etc., etc.
-=-=-



  style_emoticons/default/cool.gif  

View PostKarlis, on 05 June 2008 - 10:51 AM, said:

QUOTE (JoeyBombs @ Jun 3 2008, 09:35 PM)
Karlis - That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read

Bringing forth children who will become immortal beings in Gods Family!!!
What the f....?

The reason God cares for mankind is that he's creating Immortal beings?
Is that what you're trying to tell me?
Where are they then?
Am I one?

If he cares so much why is their all the bad sh** going on everywhere?
Oh yeah that's right.... He shows he cares be creating these non-existant immortal children

I don't blame God
I've got RE qualifications and have served at mass - I've seen religion up close

Then I got to the age of reason - and reasoned that religion is ridiculous!

Karlis - I'm sorry... but you're diluded
GOD DOESN'T CARE

Read it - believe it
Look outside your window on see it
Turn on your TV and witness it

It's out there my friend style_emoticons/default/wink2.gif
-=-=-=-

(Karlis replies to the above)
Hi Joey B -- Not that the following is likely to change your opinions, but read it anyway.

(ESV) Rom 2:6  He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;  


(MKJV)  Joh 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29  and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.


(MKJV) Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.
Rom 8:17  And if we are children, then we are heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ


1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.


1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the first-fruit, and afterward they who are Christ's at His coming;

1Co 15:35  But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36  Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
1Co 15:37  And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest).
1Co 15:38  And God gives it a body as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body.
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh; but one kind of flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fish, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40  There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;
1Co 15:41  one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42  So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43  it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:50  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51  Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
1Co 15:52  in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.


What are your thoughts, Joey B?
By the way -- did you use similarly coarse language while you were serving at mass. Hope you don't speak like that to your Mom and Dad. style_emoticons/default/angry.gif

Regards,
Karlis
-=-=-=-


View PostKarlis, on 01 November 2008 - 06:35 PM, said:

QUOTE (universal legend @ Nov 2 2008, 04:41 AM)
Do you belive in life after death?...........coment..............

(Karlis replies to the above post)
In my opinion, there are two answers to your question universal legend:

First answer is that when people die now, they are dead as a dead dog ... non-sentient, and their consciousness ceases to exist.

Second answer is that all people who die will be resurrected at a future time; and it is important to understand that there is more than one resurrection.

***The "first" resurrection will be of those who died with God's Holy Spirit within them, at Jesus' next coming. They will be resurrected as immortal spirit beings, and will be children of God in God's family.

***Another resurrection will be a thousand years after Jesus' return, when people without the Spirit of God within them will be resurrected as mortal humans. These people will be susceptible to death at that time, exactly as we are susceptible to death now.

I won't go into this any deeper here, because I think I have given a very basic answer to your question. Of course, there is much more to be said. style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Kind regards,
Karlis
-=-=-=-



View PostKarlis, on 10 January 2009 - 07:21 PM, said:

Hi folks – here are parts of my previous posts on this thread, concerning my personal opinion based on Bible Scriptures God developing Godly character in Man. Hope what I wrote makes some sense as to how God is growing his future Family, through developing character in mortal humans, who eventually will be 'born again' as immortal spirit children of God the Father.



… in "growing", we grow in spiritual character. Or, by not choosing to exercise free will in a positive way, we stunt our spiritual growth.
Either way, our character grows or fails to grow -- and that growth will determine our future. That is my view concerning "free will", folks.



… if one does not believe in the God of the Bible then one's choices will not be based on the principles laid down by that Creator God. That person will do what seems right in his own mind.
However, this is in line with Bible teachings as I see these teachings; such a person will live out their life according to their perceptions of "right and wrong", and will die, to be later resurrected back to a mortal physical body. Then the principles will be revealed to them by God, and they will have their first and only opportunity to chose their eternal future.



According to the Bible there is only one true Creator God who has laid out Man's destiny, and given Man the choice. God has advised: choose life.
By the way -- as I see it, there is no "second chance", according to Bible Scriptures. Once a person understands the way to salvation (immortal life in God's Family), but consciously rejects it, that is the end of the story for that person's future, since Christ will not shed His blood of reconciliation a second time for anybody.




For some specific reason God has not revealed God's plan of salvation to the majority of humanity -- don't ask me why not. It's just the way it seems to be.
For instance, one of the reasons why Jesus spoke in parables to the crowds, was so that they would not understand about salvation, and not repent and be saved, during their lifetime.


I wonder how many on these boards see what I mean?
Kind regards to one and all,
Karlis
-=-=-



View PostKarlis, on 26 January 2009 - 06:24 PM, said:

QUOTE (Mistydawn @ Jan 27 2009, 05:11 AM)
So you don't have to die first then? Maybe he just meant, to be born in the spirit, us mortals have got to die first?

(Karlis replies to the above post)
Hi Mistydawn, according to the Bible you do not *have* to die first. According to the Bible, if one has the Spirit of God at the time when Jesus next returns, that person will be changed from a mortal, physical being (as you and I are now) into immortal spirit beings ... children of God the Father, in God's family.

Those who died with the Spirit of God within them, will be resurrected as immortals when Jesus returns.

In my personal opinion, the idea that one is "born in the spirit" (as charismatics teach) is non-Scriptural.

But, that's how I read the Bible; most people hold different views, style_emoticons/default/original.gif  
Karlis
-=-=-



View PostKarlis, on 10 February 2009 - 09:31 PM, said:

QUOTE (Abby Mac @ Feb 10 2009, 03:02 PM)
~~~ ...
... We were created, in his image, to be companions, to fellowship with him. ...

(Karlis replies to the above post)
Hi Abby Mac, Scriptures say a great deal more than that, as to why God created Mankind. style_emoticons/default/original.gif

Scriptures state that Mankind is intended to become literal children of God -- immortal spirit beings, who will be "born" (a second time) into the very family of God the Father; with Jesus as our elder brother. That in fact is the reason that those who have received the Spirit of God  (while they are still living, breathing humans) have the right to address God as "Abba" ... aka as their literal Father.

Having written the above, I realise it is a very broad statement, and to back it up would require quoting lots of Scriptures; and to do that would become preaching the Bible. So, I'll leave it at that, and anyone who is interested these days has lots and lots of Bible study-sources available on the Internet to find out all of that through their own study. style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Kind regards,
Karlis
-=-=-=-




View PostKarlis, on 29 April 2009 - 08:10 AM, said:

QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Apr 29 2009, 01:46 AM)
I understand you .. from the gnostic interpretation. in short we are all gods . no different than Jesus. ...

(Karlis replies to the above post)
Hi Ripley, eight bits, Sheri, Dr. D, Gideon Mage, Danielost, and anyone else I may have missed – according to the Bible we are all *potential* Gods. Those people whose human spirit is impregnated with God's Spirit, have been conceived with the imperishable 'seed' of the Spirit of God. These people will be 'born again' as immortal spirit beings aka children of God, at Jesus' return … then they will be Gods, as per the Scriptures.

Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
And
Psa 82:6  I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

The problem is, all humanity has sinned, with the result that:

Psa 82:7  But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

The 'Good news' aka the Gospel, is that Jesus has paid our penalty for us, if we are willing to accept that payment. In that case we will not suffer the second death but have the *potential* to be born into God's family as God's children aka as Gods, at Jesus' next coming.

Too simple, maybe? style_emoticons/default/original.gif
-=-=-=-




QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Apr 29 2009, 01:46 AM)
Going by that however worshiping Jesus as God would be like worshiping any other human as God.

not to get into the aspect of Idols either .. or worshiping other Gods ...

but the blending in of gnositism with christianity seems overall at odds.. in it's present form.  Jesus may very well have been an Essene then that would make sense. Nazareth did have a large number of Essenes.  But at the same time the bible has him following Orthodox Judaism rules and not Essene ( like eating meat)  . Maybe he was a mix of both. ?

(Karlis replies to the above post)
That's good gnostic thinking, Ripley. style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif


Ripley -- you ask: but does that fit the Psalm ?
The answer is "No", your ideas do not fit the Scriptures.

A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
   he gives judgment among the "gods":


2 "How long will you [a] defend the unjust
   and show partiality to the wicked?
   Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
   maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
   deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
   They walk about in darkness;
   all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
   you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
   you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
   for all the nations are your inheritance
-=-=-=-




View PostKarlis, on 18 March 2010 - 02:34 AM, said:

Folks, I'm commenting specifically on the above aspect in Mr Walker's post, because imo it pretty well perfectly fits in with the idea that God is creating character in human minds -- to learn to choose one specific way in life, against all opposition, and in all circumstances. When "perfect" character develops within one's psyche, that person could then be regarded as spiritually, emotionally and otherwise of the same nature as God; aka "in God's likeness".

Only such developed character would be suitable for those humans who are to be raised as immortal spirit children of God, as members of God's family.

Just tossing in a thought here, without enlarging on it, :)
Karlis
-=-=-=-




#51    shadowhive

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:51 PM

View PostKarlis, on 02 September 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

Shadowhive, you have been on UM a long time. Perhaps you simply have not read any of my previous posts on this very subject. Below are a few of the many posts I have made on this theme. Why not do a word search through my posts, if you are really interested in my thoughts.

Regards,
Karlis

Being on a long time doesn't translate into 'I have read every post on every board', especially since many posts seem to run into many pages (and cover topics I'm simply not interested in). As such, it's not that much of a leap to suggest I've missed what your thoughts may be. You don't need to act like that's such an impossibility.

I will give your stuff a look over now.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#52    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:51 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 01 September 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

Does the christian /jewish/ muslim god, in particular, have free will?

Do entities labelled god(s), in general, have free will?

Any opinions appreciated, but rationales/reasons for your opinions would be particularly interesting.

You dont have to believe in the existence of a god or gods to answer this.

It is a theological/philosophical/cosmological  question,  which goes to the potential nature of god(s),

imagined, constructed or real.
I think so. Higher conciousness would have free will just as much as we do. I'm not a determinist so I do believe any sort of god that us alive would have free will.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#53    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:53 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 02 September 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

That would be understandable. However the big problem I have with that, is what christians claim happens after death. Either a: most of us get sent to a spiritual death or b: people get 'cleansed' of their negative sides. So if the point is that growth and experience, and god wants us to have it, why erase it at the first oppportunity?

As karlis says, neither of these concepts comes from biblical scripture. HAving said that, to me  life after death is belief based and has to be taken on faith. I have no faith or belief in life after death although neither do i disbelieve its possibilty.

Gods teachings to me are alll about improving myself and my world in the here and now.  They are also about species growth development and evolution/maturation Each generation grows upon the backs of the preceding ones.

God, in my experience, works to falicitate this species growth and development by working on the personal growth and development of individuals. This depends a lot on the individuall And god can only work with what a person is or has. So, for example, god working with an italian from 1500 would be very different from god working with me in 2012.  And very different again from god working with a person from the neolithic period. Gods aims and intentions in each case might be the same,  but methods understandings and relationships would be quite different.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#54    Mr Walker

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:56 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 02 September 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

I think so. Higher conciousness would have free will just as much as we do. I'm not a determinist so I do believe any sort of god that us alive would have free will.

I am not suprised that this is almost precisely the answer  thatIi would have given to the question. :innocent:

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#55    shadowhive

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:57 PM

View PostKarlis, on 02 September 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

Shadowhive, you have been on UM a long time. Perhaps you simply have not read any of my previous posts on this very subject. Below are a few of the many posts I have made on this theme. Why not do a word search through my posts, if you are really interested in my thoughts.

Regards,
Karlis

Look it over. As I expected, it all sounds quite ridiculous, bordering on the insane but hey, that's religion for you.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#56    shadowhive

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 04:09 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 02 September 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

I agree with a lot of this. human history and the colonial period demonstrates  the problem. And i think startrek was influenced by this history, But times are changing a bit Today there is a more interventist view, partly in response to more modern understandings about human sociology and cultures.

I don't think there's anything wrong with intervening, as long as it's done with care. That is my main point. We shouldn't just simply see another species and think they're in trouble and try to intervene. We'd need to be careful before we did anything, just in case we don't actually make things worse, or take things the wrong way.

I'd be very against us going out into the stars and intervening with the affairs of every civilisation we meet simply because we think we know the 'right way' for them to be.

Example: if we see a person screaming, we rush to their aid, because they might be in pain. If we hear an alien scream, are they in pain, or is that how they communicate? Maybe a scream is a laugh to them, or a way of frightening others off? We'd need to know what it is before we acted and did something foolish.

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I imagine the klingons would react violently. Hardly a surprise. In startrek ALL cultural responses were valued. In practice some are more positive than others. I tended to see the klingons as galactic bully boys. I think the viulcans and klingons were meant to represent the two alternate aspects of human nature. Our primeaval evolved responses, and those we are evolving as rational and self aware beings.

Exactly. Which is why if you had where faced with a situation that was effecting the Klingons you'd handle it in a different way than you'd handle the same situation with the Vulcans. You'd not want to accidentally start a war with the 'galactic bully boys' simply over a misunderstanding.

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Perhaps  god has not done a great job. The "proof" wil be whether we survive the next couple of centuries and do manage to get off world.  
The altering i was speaking of comes from internal adjustment and is inevitable when two different cultures clash, especially where one has a clear technological advantage.

Perhaps.

If the altering is done carefully, then the outcome can be much better for all involved. If the altering is done too quickly, that's when trouble ensues and there's enough historical proof that that's the wrong way of doing things.

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Humans cant shake religious belief while we think as we are evolved to do. It is inhernt in how we think and in our language . We are programmed from birth to  relate to our environment in this way.

I don't think that's necessarily a good thing, as your next point emphasises.

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No  not necessarily a common religion, that was a different point. A religion or form of spirtituality which works for educated modern, inteligent beings with a great database of knowledge and a scientific understanding of the world. A religion or sense of spirituality which enables us to be as happy content and adjusted as christianity (as one example) enabled people to be for 2000 years, and as earlier religions worked for people prior to christianity. Less tha 10% of modern humans claim to be atheists. All the rest acknowledge either a god or a spiritual element in their lives and in their view of the world. But today it doesnt seem to work as effectively as it once did. And in the  material west, suicide and depression are among the highest causes of death  and unhappiness, It really seems that humans (unless they are  physically reconstructed) cant live full lives without a spiritual/religious element,   perhaps to make sense of their lives.

I don't think a religion would work for the modern world. spirituality haas a better bet, but religion doesn't, because any religion would have a shelf live before it becomes irrelevent (like the others have been). I think we'd need something a bit more vague, a bit more lasting, a bit more reasonable and sane. Would such a thing happen in my lifetime? I doubt it.

Edited by shadowhive, 02 September 2012 - 04:10 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#57    JGirl

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 04:12 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 02 September 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Thanks for your last reply, j girl. That made sense to me, and i can understand what you are getting at.
you're welcome.


#58    rimbaudelaire

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 04:38 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 02 September 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

To me free will is simple and clear. Can a n entity form a choice of action without concrete let or hindrance? In other words is there any physical obstruction preventing a human mind from imagining ANY choice of action? I can find none.

Second, is there any physical mechanism which prevents a human trying to act on any thought they have? Again I can find none. Knowedge of consequence is a cautionary/informing force not one which physically prevents action. Death as a consquence of an action comes too late to prevent the exercise of either forming an intent or carring it out.  So there are no physical limitations on human free will.

The wider illusion of predestination as an aspect of cause and effect, is an illusion based on human perspective and our  current positioning in a linear time line; between a concrete past  which we assume was the only possible past time line, and a future which is yet to be formed and created. We judge the future as we see the past but they are differnt entities Our past was once our future As a future it was changable and alterable Only past things are unchangeable There is no definitive connection between a past nano second of time and a future one.  But that is a wider argument .
While a god might be able to compute many alternate futures, it cannot know them, especially when they involve sapient self aware beings who can imagine and create. Thus, gods need to work to achieve their desired outcomes, just as we do They just have more data and a better computing capacity.

Many things are not connected to free will. If i am killed by a volcano erupting suddenly under my house, no will is involved. Free will is a component of our self aware sapience. It exists within our own choices. We dont have a choice about being born or   about the free willed intent of another. Eg i cant prevent someone who wants to, from trying to walking into my home and shooting me,  but we always have choices about how we think and act In any scenario. How i respond when that intruder enters; how i decide and act, will alter the outcome as much as it can

Those choices are virtually unliimited. Only our failure to recognise and act on this knowledge restricts our choices. But that does not deny free will. It exists even if we do not fully utilise it. just as a person who refuses to speak is still capable of speech.

First, I respect your opinion, Mr Walker, and I thank you for responding.

I am Jewish. I was taught that G-d gave "man" (I'm female!) Free Will. However, my university studies in philosophy have led me to oppose the idea of Free Will, and freedom of choice. We are limited. I cannot defy gravity. I cannot 'will' to change my sexual preference. Choices are given, determined--not free.

To answer your OP question, G-d is an abstraction, so how do you reconcile Free Will with that?


#59    Mr Walker

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 11:13 AM

View Postrimbaudelaire, on 03 September 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

First, I respect your opinion, Mr Walker, and I thank you for responding.

I am Jewish. I was taught that G-d gave "man" (I'm female!) Free Will. However, my university studies in philosophy have led me to oppose the idea of Free Will, and freedom of choice. We are limited. I cannot defy gravity. I cannot 'will' to change my sexual preference. Choices are given, determined--not free.

To answer your OP question, G-d is an abstraction, so how do you reconcile Free Will with that?
Thats one of the reasons I am not too keen on university philosophy courses  lol; they give lots of people funny ideas. Free will and choice is not limited by gravity. How can gravity negate  my WILL? How can gravity  prevent me from execising the intent of my will?

It cannot. Gravity can only influence the condsequence of an action, and as this consequence comes after a thought and a deed, it has no power to proscribe or prevent my thoughts or deed.

For example I see a tall cliff. I know that if i walk off it, i will die from the effects of gravity. But that knowledge cannot prevent me making a decision to walk of the cliff, nor prevent me from doing so It is my free willed choice to do so or not. Knowledge informs and empowers us and allows beteer choices but it has no physicl effect on free will for example i  see a wall i front of me Despite wah ti know about walls i decide that this time maybe i wil be able to walk right through it. So i decide to I walk right up to it and through it, and (probably) I bounce of with a sore nose. But none of my knowledge prevented me from constructing an intent(will) or exercising that intent (action) I have complete freedom of will and action. Mos tliely the wall stoped me from  succeding but that does not impede either my will or my action. There is nothing in human physiolgy to limit our abilty to form intent (exercise our will ) or  attemept to act on it. Every day i spread my arms, face into the wind, run, and  try to fly.  I rarely succeed. BUT when I strap on a hang glider and do the same thing, yippee I am up and away flying like a bird.  If i was impeded in my will or actions I could never have learned to hang glide. Something in my mind or physiology would have prevented me thinking it was possible or stopped me from trying it. But nothing does. Thats true of everything.

Go back and tell your philosophy professors to think again :devil:  If they are good enough they will get the joke.  There are things unconnected to will  Like whether we are born male or female or still born.That doesnt negate the freedom of our will. Freedom of will can logically only apply where will is possible. A stone doesnt have a will. A flower has no choice when to open or close I have no choice about being born . But of course a human CAN apply will to many things, even gender and sexuality If you want to you can change your gender up to a point If you want to.

(Not that i would recpmmed this, but you can chose your sexual  partners contrary to your genetic preferences There is nothing to stop you doing so) Even within things predetermined, like our eventual death, we do and have to make choices and those choices are freely made and acted on. Nothing forces us into one decision/intent or another. That's just a belief.

And where will is concerned, there is no physical predestination. For example gravity causes water to run down hill. It thus appears predestined that this wil happen. No  will is involved; but invoke a human's will and we can make water run uphill.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#60    Ninhursag

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 05:15 PM

I Truly Hope They Do ..

~ Nothing In Nature Is By Chance... Something Appears To Be Chance Only Because Of Our Lack Of Knowledge. - Brauch De Spinoza ~




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