1751 replies to this topic

[skyeagle409]

Babe Ruth, on 14 January 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

The coverup was certainly planned at the highest levels, but that was planning separate from the planning for the tactics to be used to accomplish the mission.

Considering there is no evidence of a government 911 coverup, you have no leg to stand on.

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Wally Miller at Shanksville is a perfect example.  He did not plan or execute the events of the day.  Encouraged to be "a team player" he participated to some extent in the coverup.

Personally, I think you made that up that false story because you have been caught making up stories by others as well. You became upset that Wally Miller was very angry and he was very angry because people like you were taking his comments out of context and misrepresenting his position. After all, I posted his video interview for all to see and hear.

[joc]

skyeagle409, on 14 January 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

The firefighters first said they heard explosions at the base of the building, but they later determined the sounds they heard were crashing elevators.

I don't buy that either though...because...why would elevators be crashing?  and how would elevators crashing cause plumes of white smoke to appear on the outside of the building?

[skyeagle409]

socrates.junior, on 14 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

I'm curious about something. When you talk about participation in the coverup, what does that mean? Based on previous posts, you seem to mean making false statements knowingly.

Why would someone do that? They wouldn't do it just to be a "team player", so what would motivate it?

Bear in mind, we're not talking about Wally Miller at Shanksville. We're talking about a large number of engineers here. Why would they all be attaching their name to false statements? (Bear in mind, you've done ZERO to prove that their statements are false.)

EDIT: Taking 4 years of military science isn't necessary to know what "planning" and "execution" mean. The coverup is a necessary part in the overall execution of the conspiracy. Otherwise it isn't a conspiracy. Quit playing word games.

BR, has been put on notice on many occasions by myself and others for making up stories and this is just another example. A case in point is that. he claims that no Boeing struck the Pentagon and no Boeing crashed at Shanksville despite photos to the contrary. In addition, there are confirmations on the loss of American 77 from American Airlines, operator of American 77, and the loss of United 93 from United Airlines, operator of United 93. There are confirmations from coroner Wally Miller, recovery crews and investigators, aircraft black boxes and yet he suggested that a P700 anti-ship missile could have been responsible for the strike on the Pentagon and that no aircraft crashed near Shanksville and he has added that no aircraft can make a crater in the ground or penetrate concrete walls despite the fact we posted photos that trashed his claims.

He also claims that explosives knocked down the light poles near the Pentagon despite the fact it was clear that the light poles were knocked down by force of impact, and nothing to do with explosives and he says that nuclear weapons were used to demolish the WTC buildings.

Just a heads up as to where he is coming from.

[skyeagle409]

joc, on 14 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

I don't buy that either though...because...why would elevators be crashing?

The aircraft were responsible.

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Elevators were disaster within disaster

By Dennis Cauchon and Martha T. Moore, USA TODAY

The World Trade Center had one of the world's great elevator systems — 198 of the biggest, fastest elevators ever built. On the morning of Sept. 11, this technological marvel turned against the people who worked there. USA TODAY estimates that at least 200 people died inside World Trade Center elevators, the biggest elevator catastrophe in history.

Some people plunged to their deaths after elevator cables were destroyed by the hijacked jets that crashed into the buildings. Others burned to death as flames shot down shafts. And some who were trapped inside stalled elevators died when the buildings collapsed.

http://usatoday30.us...ator-usat_x.htm

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...and how would elevators crashing cause plumes of white smoke to appear on the outside of the building?

A large displacement of air can be one reason; much like a plunger in a tube.

[joc]

skyeagle409, on 14 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

The aircraft were responsible.





A large displacement of air can be one reason; much like a plunger in a tube.

So, you actually believe that a Jet Airplane hitting high up in the building sent all the elevators crashing to the bottom, on fire, pushing plumes of white smoke outside the building?  You are stretching dude...really stretching.  

[skyeagle409]

joc, on 14 January 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

So, you actually believe that a Jet Airplane hitting high up in the building sent all the elevators crashing to the bottom, on fire, pushing plumes of white smoke outside the building?  You are stretching dude...really stretching.  

Let's just call it reality. Let's take a step back into history and read the account where a B-25 crashed into the Empire State building and sent elevators crashing into the subbasement.

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The Day A Bomber Hit The Empire State Building



On July 28, 1945, residents of New York City were horrified when an airplane crashed into the Empire State Building, leaving 14 dead. Though the events of that day have largely faded from public memory, they remain etched in the minds of those who experienced them. When the plane hit, parts of the engine flew ahead and severed the lifting cables of two elevators on the 79th floor, according to Weingarten. The elevators crashed to the subbasement.

In one of the elevators was a 19-year-old elevator operator named Betty Lou Oliver. She broke her pelvis, back and neck — but she survived

http://www.npr.org/t...toryId=92987873

And, you thought that I was joking.

Edited by skyeagle409, 14 January 2013 - 10:24 PM.

[Czero 101]

joc, on 14 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

I don't buy that either though...because...why would elevators be crashing?  and how would elevators crashing cause plumes of white smoke to appear on the outside of the building?

You "don't buy" what, exactly...? Physics (which you have already displayed an almost non-existent understanding of) which dictates what happens to a falling object?

Tell us... what do you think would happen to an elevator car weighing several thousand pounds when its cable's are severed and its emergency systems compromised...?

What do you think will happen when an elevator car falls anywhere from 70 to 100 stories into the sub-basement of a building? What does your "heart and soul" think it will sound like when it hits bottom?

Maybe you think this man was "in on it" as well...?

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The Elevator Man's Tale
Featuring the unabridged transcript and audio.

Robert Jones
Age: 52
Hometown: Montgomery
Family: Two children
Occupation: Elevator mechanic for Ace Elevator in the World Trade Center
Was in the south tower when the first plane hit.

...

As I turned around to go back toward the core of the building in the lobby, the second plane hit, and that shook the building.

We heard the explosion and within a matter of seconds after that impact, I heard – and as well as everybody else heard – this noise, this increasing sound of wind. And it was getting louder and louder. It was like a bomb, not quite the sound of a bomb coming down from a bomber. It was a sound of wind increasing, a whistling sound, increasing in sound.

I’m looking from the lobby up to a mezzanine area or the second floor where they lined up all the people to go up to the rooftop, and I’m looking up expecting something, building parts to be coming down, because I wasn’t quite sure what that noise was.

But I found out later, when the plane came through the building, it cut the hoist ropes, the governor ropes, of (the) 6 and 7 cars, which was the observation cars.

Every night they would park those two cars up on the 107th floor. At the time the plane impacted B Tower, the observation deck wasn’t open yet, which was another life-saving factor. At the time it impacted the building, they hadn’t opened the observation deck.

Had they, there would’ve been many, maybe another 1,000, 2,000 people on the rooftop, because it was a clear day. It was a beautiful day.

What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

And apparently from what I talked to with other mechanics, they saw the doors, the hatch doors blow off in the lobby level of 6 and 7 car.

[SOURCE]







Cz

[Czero 101]

joc, on 14 January 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

So, you actually believe that a Jet Airplane hitting high up in the building sent all the elevators crashing to the bottom, on fire, pushing plumes of white smoke outside the building?  You are stretching dude...really stretching.  

Nice strawman you're building.

Please quote for us exactly where Skyeagle or his article specifically states that "all the elevators fell".

Do you even know how the elevators in the WTC Towers were configured? I'm guessing you don't.

It seems to me that the more you talk about this topic, the greater the gaps in your knowledge of this subject appear to become.





Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 14 January 2013 - 11:56 PM.

[joc]

Czero 101, on 14 January 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Nice strawman you're building.

Please quote for us exactly where Skyeagle or his article specifically states that "all the elevators fell".

Do you even know how the elevators in the WTC Towers were configured? I'm guessing you don't.

It seems to me that the more you talk about this topic, the greater the gaps in your knowledge of this subject appear to become.





Cz

But wait...I read the entire story of the Elevator Man...and...I believe him.  So, okay the Elevators came crashing down..some of them..okay two of them...fair enough...I'm sure that sounded incredibly like an explosion...could have even been an explosion when they hit...but...when did they fall?  If  the cables were cut...wouldn't they fall then?  yes...and they did fall...that's what he said...they fell right after the plane hit...

...that may account for some of the explosions heard...but what about the explosions heard at the bottom, seconds before the building came down?

[Czero 101]

joc, on 15 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

But wait...I read the entire story of the Elevator Man...and...I believe him.  So, okay the Elevators came crashing down..some of them..okay two of them...fair enough...I'm sure that sounded incredibly like an explosion...could have even been an explosion when they hit...but...when did they fall?  If  the cables were cut...wouldn't they fall then?  yes...and they did fall...that's what he said...they fell right after the plane hit...

...that may account for some of the explosions heard...but what about the explosions heard at the bottom, seconds before the building came down?

So... I take it your "heart and soul" tell you that its not possible for anything else other than demolition charges to be the source for explosions, or things that that sound like explosions and that elevator cars in a damaged building that is in the process of tearing itself apart can only fall when / if their cables are severed....

I think your heart and soul need to learn some critical thinking and investigative skills....






Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 15 January 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[skyeagle409]

joc, on 15 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

...that may account for some of the explosions heard...but what about the explosions heard at the bottom, seconds before the building came down?

There was no bomb explosion. On another note, are you aware that William Rodriguez has been discredited?

Quote

William Rodriguez, Escape Artist

https://sites.google...911stories/home

[joc]

skyeagle409, on 15 January 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

There was no bomb explosion. On another note, are you aware that William Rodriguez has been discredited?

I've never even heard of William Rodriguez.

[Babe Ruth]

socrates.junior, on 14 January 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

I'm curious about something. When you talk about participation in the coverup, what does that mean? Based on previous posts, you seem to mean making false statements knowingly.

Why would someone do that? They wouldn't do it just to be a "team player", so what would motivate it?

Bear in mind, we're not talking about Wally Miller at Shanksville. We're talking about a large number of engineers here. Why would they all be attaching their name to false statements? (Bear in mind, you've done ZERO to prove that their statements are false.)

EDIT: Taking 4 years of military science isn't necessary to know what "planning" and "execution" mean. The coverup is a necessary part in the overall execution of the conspiracy. Otherwise it isn't a conspiracy. Quit playing word games.

I'm not playing word games, and we're talking about the proverbial Big Picture--Wally Miller, engineers, steel recycling merchants, airline companies, the mainstream media, various members of academia, the federal judiciary, and many many others.

Wally Miller WAS encouraged by the FBI to be a "team player", and he did.  What small town coroner would not?

I'm glad you understand planning and execution, and I assume that you have not served in the military, and thus cannot appreciate the military style, regarding planning and execution.  I hope you also understand the notion of "compartmentalization" as it applies to the various federal bureaucracies.  In a nutshell, that means that one bureau is not always informed of the intents and activities of another bureau.

At the highest level of planning, yes, it was known that a coverup would be necessary.  They knew that certain details, if made public, would expose the hoax.  They knew that if they could control what the media said and knew, the hoax could be kept intact.

However the tactical end of the operation need not concern itself with the coverup so much, but OF COURSE secrecy and compartmentaliztion was critical.  The tactical guys just needed to pull off the events, with secrecy and compartmentalization, but did not need to concern themselves with the coverup in the media so much, as there work was basically done when the day was over.

But to your other point, companies that derive a large part of their income, perhaps ALL of their income from DoD contracts, or other government contracts, have every reason in the world to be "team players", to cooperate and graduate, to do as they are asked.  That does not mean that they were planners or involved in the tactical execution.  It merely means they dance with the ones that brought them.  They know by whom their bread is buttered.  The DoD had a program called Blast Mitigation for Structures Program, BMSP. Greenhorne & O'Mara and others were participants in that program, and other DARPA programs.

[flyingswan]

Q24, on 14 January 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

The keywords quoted in my previous post were "detailed study", which at a minimum when drawing conclusions, one would think, should include demonstrating a match to the effects seen in the WTC steelwork through experiment – of course this was never achieved.

My, don't those goalposts shift.  When your claim of "no detailed study" is proved false, you start quibbling about how detailed it should have been.

Why am I not surprised when Q24 has better knowledge of the implications of an investigation than the people who actually did it?

[socrates.junior]

Okay, Babe, I'm only going to ask this one more time. Did the engineers in the NIST reports I linked, or that Canadian guy whose name escapes me, knowingly make false statements, and what are those false statements?