Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 11 votes

The Paranormal is it Fake?


  • Please log in to reply
852 replies to this topic

#16    xFelix

xFelix

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 653 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Yea I'm Pagan, oh no!

Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:00 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 30 May 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

You're being very selective again about what you are replying to.  What position should you take when there is no evidence of something existing yet someone claims it does?  Do you just gullibly believe that since someone said it that that is verifiable evidence of it existing, or are do you disbelieve what people claim exists solely based on opinion.  Yes or no, is it solely your opinion that leads you to believe, I assume since you keep editing it out, that there is not an invisible dragon living in my garage?  Can you prove that fairies and leprechauns do not exist using verifiable facts?  Is your disbelief in leprechauns 'based on the fact that you can't prove that it either exists or not (WHAT???)'?  What has been proven not to exist, why can't you name one thing?  I think it's because of your misplacement of the burden of proof.

So you're saying that you have no evidence, instead you're going to argue semantics and burden of proof?

Ok let's do it!

Burden of proof lies within whoever makes a claim, when someone lays claims as fact, they have to prove their claims to be so.
(This is why Science involves theory, because some things just cannot be proven but they also cannot be disproven so there is in theory a possibility of them existing or not existing)
The dragon in your garage can very well be real, I cannot prove it is real or prove it not to be real so why would I make a claim that it is in fact not real?
What I can offer is my opinion or theory, that the dragon is not real. But you won't catch me saying that there are facts that prove this dragon to be fake.

The claims we are discussing are "The Paranormal is Fake". Now again, burden of proof lies on the person laying claim.
So in order for anyone claim that as fact, they would have to effectively verify evidence and come to the conclusion that the Paranormal is not real.
Not having evidence, is not a true or false conclusion. It is a marker that something along the Scientific Method applied is either inaccurate or missing.
Now when you are performing your experiment in hopes that the paranormal does not exist, what tools would you use?
You wouldn't because there are no known tools to verify these things, so the possibility of them existing is in fact there.. While the fact that you cannot prove that that they are is also there... So your experiment's conclusion has to in fact be Inconclusive.

That means that your facts proving the paranormal does not exist are based on Inconclusive Scientific findings.


Now can someone please stop arguing semantics with me and actually show me verifiable evidence that support the factual claim that the paranormal does not exist?

Edited by xFelix, 30 May 2013 - 03:05 PM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#17    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,221 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:35 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 30 May 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:



What is the non-materialist criteria for proof?  I always find the sidestepping of the facts concerning the lack of evidence by resorting to accusations of 'bias' to be pretty unconvincing.  You really don't understand how people come to the conclusion that there is no good reason to believe the immaterial exists, that makes no logical/empirical/rational sense to you?  It would be the most ground-breaking discovery in history, but everyone who disagrees is just doing so because of pre-existing bias?  Because non-materialists of course do not suffer from this bias?
The same proof there is for anything else..... An irrefutable experience. If you introduce yourself and I shake your hand... You are going to have an irrefutable experience that I exist weather everyone else says I do not it not. You could be personally dishonest and accept the drivel that you imagined me or I am the product of your delusion, but you would know that it's not true. I accept black holes exist because I have had an irrefutable experience with the evidences laid before me by scientists. I accept that gravity exists because I have skinned my knee. I accet that the spirit works exists because I have been there seen it and interacted with its inhabitants.

I understand it completely actually and I don't really fault people for it, but there is quit a bit of lazyness to their bias. once they are convinced they stop thinking critically and stop looking deeper and cling to their bias with a strong case of cognitive dissonance much like religious fundamentalism actually.  There is empirical evidence that materialistic philosophy is completely false, but yet again cognitive dissonance has its way with people.

Logical and rational!!!!! This is funny when I hear people assume that their world view has monopolized rationality or what is logical. Logic has very specific set of rules. There is nothing illogical about a non physical reality or believing in spirits, gods, or other things, nor is it irational. Not even in the slightest. Materialists are under another assumption that their world view is more logical and more rational than other premisies, this is an assuming tge conclusion fallacy. Indeed some materialist positions are indeed over certain beliefs, but that not the end of logic or rationality. orbs in pictures are a great case. Obviously their is an easy to tell material explanation. But this is not true for deeper phenomenon and other things even if the materialist wants to explaine away everything with their brand brand of philosophy.

It would not be the most ground breaking discovery in history. It's already been discovered ages ago. Well over 80-90% of the world already accepts that a non physical reality exists albeit not necessarily through critical thinking much like many materialists. ( note: I'm not using band wagon logic I'm only pointing out that materialists right or wrong are in the minority)

Some non-materialists do, quite obviously, suffer from much cognitive dissonance aswell no doubt. But offering up an apeal to hypocracy fallacy while speaking of logic is a bit contradictory dont you think? ;)

So I think that covers it.

1) Empirical evidence has prooven that SOME type of non physical ( by definition of physical)  reality exists as a more fundamental reality thereby eliminating materialism.

2) Rationality is quit subjective and really a mute point.

3) claiming what is logical in these matters.... Is well... Illogical when you are not actually following logical rules. In fact logic has nothing to say about it what so ever. It only provides us rules by which to have a discussion.

It is not irrational to believe in a spirit world especially if you have had an NDE or OBE, or have personal contacts in the spirit world, it is not illogical, and the counter view of materialism has been prooven to be false. ( note: this does not mean that the spirit world exists, it's only the process of elimination).

:D


"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#18    Liquid Gardens

Liquid Gardens

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,677 posts
  • Joined:23 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Male

  • "Or is it just remains of vibrations from echoes long ago"

Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:40 PM

View PostxFelix, on 30 May 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

Burden of proof lies within whoever makes a claim, when someone lays claims as fact, they have to prove their claims to be so.

Correct, and 'there is no reason to believe the paranormal exists' is a response to the initial claim that the paranormal does exist, and that's where the burden of proof lies.

Quote

The dragon in your garage can very well be real, I cannot prove it is real or prove it not to be real so why would I make a claim that it is in fact not real?

No one is saying anything about 'facts', you just keep interjecting that and the word 'proof' into your statements in response to no one as far as I can tell.  I've never said the paranormal is not real, I've said there is no good evidence supporting the idea that the paranormal does exist, and that statement is not based solely on opinion.

Quote

What I can offer is my opinion or theory, that the dragon is not real. But you won't catch me saying that there are facts that prove this dragon to be fake.

I have no issue then, I'm entirely content to say that the idea that the paranormal exists is on par from an evidence standpoint as an invisible dragon living in my garage.  Who specifically has said that facts prove that the paranormal is fake?

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

#19    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,221 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:41 PM

View PostxFelix, on 30 May 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:



So you're saying that you have no evidence, instead you're going to argue semantics and burden of proof?

Ok let's do it!

Burden of proof lies within whoever makes a claim, when someone lays claims as fact, they have to prove their claims to be so.
(This is why Science involves theory, because some things just cannot be proven but they also cannot be disproven so there is in theory a possibility of them existing or not existing)
The dragon in your garage can very well be real, I cannot prove it is real or prove it not to be real so why would I make a claim that it is in fact not real?
What I can offer is my opinion or theory, that the dragon is not real. But you won't catch me saying that there are facts that prove this dragon to be fake.

The claims we are discussing are "The Paranormal is Fake". Now again, burden of proof lies on the person laying claim.
So in order for anyone claim that as fact, they would have to effectively verify evidence and come to the conclusion that the Paranormal is not real.
Not having evidence, is not a true or false conclusion. It is a marker that something along the Scientific Method applied is either inaccurate or missing.
Now when you are performing your experiment in hopes that the paranormal does not exist, what tools would you use?
You wouldn't because there are no known tools to verify these things, so the possibility of them existing is in fact there.. While the fact that you cannot prove that that they are is also there... So your experiment's conclusion has to in fact be Inconclusive.

That means that your facts proving the paranormal does not exist are based on Inconclusive Scientific findings.


Now can someone please stop arguing semantics with me and actually show me verifiable evidence that support the factual claim that the paranormal does not exist?
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7), Hamlet to Horatio, Shakespeare.

Ok now I'm quote mineing :D

Edited by Seeker79, 30 May 2013 - 03:42 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#20    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,221 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:53 PM

Quote

I've said there is no good evidence supporting the idea that the paranormal does exist...

This is because you are basing what you consider "good evidence" on a particular philosophy. You are assuming the conclusion again.

When the premise fails, all arguments from that permis become highly suspect.

Edited by Seeker79, 30 May 2013 - 03:55 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#21    scowl

scowl

    Government Agent

  • Closed
  • 4,111 posts
  • Joined:17 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:55 PM

View PostxFelix, on 30 May 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

The dragon in your garage can very well be real, I cannot prove it is real or prove it not to be real so why would I make a claim that it is in fact not real?
What I can offer is my opinion or theory, that the dragon is not real. But you won't catch me saying that there are facts that prove this dragon to be fake.

You are saying that dragons may exist. Soon we'll have you saying that fairies, elves and the boogie man may also exist. Do you still not see the flaw in trying to prove a negative?


#22    xFelix

xFelix

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 653 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Yea I'm Pagan, oh no!

Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:57 PM

View Postscowl, on 30 May 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

You are saying that dragons may exist. Soon we'll have you saying that fairies, elves and the boogie man may also exist. Do you still not see the flaw in trying to prove a negative?

Are you claiming that fairies, elves and the boogeymen don't exist? I will wait while you try to prove such a claim...

The only flaw I see, is that of making an unsupported claim of something not existing and presenting it as fact in a condescending manner.

Edited by xFelix, 30 May 2013 - 04:00 PM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#23    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

Heaven Is A Halfpipe

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 914 posts
  • Joined:10 Mar 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

  • Hi. My name is Spike.

Posted 30 May 2013 - 03:57 PM

"Paranormal" covers a lot, Felix; ghosts, demons, aliens, psychic powers etc. but a thread like this is overdue. Since I got here, we can't have a thread without somebody derailing it into a debate. I often see claims that science doesn't bother researching life after death because it's a medieval concept but...

http://www.psycholog...idence-says-yes

Ah....evidence suggests the soul exists.

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 30 May 2013 - 03:58 PM.

You can go the distance, you can run the mile and you can walk straight through HELL with a smile.

My UM Credentials: http://www.unexplain...5


#24    xFelix

xFelix

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 653 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Yea I'm Pagan, oh no!

Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:03 PM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 30 May 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

"Paranormal" covers a lot, Felix; ghosts, demons, aliens, psychic powers etc. but a thread like this is overdue. Since I got here, we can't have a thread without somebody derailing it into a debate. I often see claims that science doesn't bother researching life after death because it's a medieval concept but...

http://www.psycholog...idence-says-yes

Ah....evidence suggests the soul exists.

I know the word is a bit broad, but I use the broad word as a blanket term because the same blanket term is used when people make claims that none of it exists and they have facts to prove it..I'm just waiting for the facts lol

Thanks for the post, by the way...

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#25    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

Heaven Is A Halfpipe

    Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 914 posts
  • Joined:10 Mar 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England

  • Hi. My name is Spike.

Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostxFelix, on 30 May 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I know the word is a bit broad, but I use the broad word as a blanket term because the same blanket term is used when people make claims that none of it exists and they have facts to prove it..I'm just waiting for the facts lol

Thanks for the post, by the way...

No problem, I got your back (on some subject anyway..) :tu:

You can go the distance, you can run the mile and you can walk straight through HELL with a smile.

My UM Credentials: http://www.unexplain...5


#26    rashore

rashore

    Telekinetic

  • 6,960 posts
  • Joined:26 Feb 2010
  • Gender:Female

Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:17 PM

Yeah, paranormal is a pretty blanket term. I don't think in a blanket sense it can be proven not to exist. I do think that often on a case by case basis, science can be pretty helpful in ruling out paranormal, usually by ruling in another explanation. And there's heaps of stuff out there that hasn't been figured out yet too.


#27    scowl

scowl

    Government Agent

  • Closed
  • 4,111 posts
  • Joined:17 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 30 May 2013 - 04:42 PM

View PostxFelix, on 30 May 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Are you claiming that fairies, elves and the boogeymen don't exist? I will wait while you try to prove such a claim...

I am claiming that there is no evidence to support their existence therefore there is no reason to believe they do exist. If you wish to live in a world full of things that exist, you are far better off believing in the things that have evidence to support their existences.

Quote

The only flaw I see, is that of making an unsupported claim of something not existing and presenting it as fact in a condescending manner.

Let me express this in a mathematical way: there are an infinite number things that could exist, however there is only a finite number of things that do exist.


#28    xFelix

xFelix

    Astral Projection

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 653 posts
  • Joined:30 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

  • Yea I'm Pagan, oh no!

Posted 30 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

View Postscowl, on 30 May 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I am claiming that there is no evidence to support their existence therefore there is no reason to believe they do exist. If you wish to live in a world full of things that exist, you are far better off believing in the things that have evidence to support their existences.



Let me express this in a mathematical way: there are an infinite number things that could exist, however there is only a finite number of things that do exist.

So according to your statement, many things that people believe to be paranormal actually have a possibility of existing, but none of this can be proven?
(These are the grounds by which most believers justify their beliefs by the way, there is a possibility they are right...)

Oh I see, so what about the verifiable evidence people keep saying they have that proves that these things absolutely do not exist?
(These are the grounds by which most skeptics tend to condescend onto believers...)

Again, not having verifiable evidence is not proper grounds for a conclusion. For one to arrive at a proper scientific conclusion one must absolutely prove their hypothesis true or false. Blank is not true or false. If one cannot arrive at true, one must then attempt to prove false, if they cannot prove false they must then settle for an inconclusive finding. This is how scientific method works.

By the way if we were to jump in a time capsule and I took you back 10 years and you said the same about Greenland Sharks you'd feel horrified at the thought that 10 years later it would be another thing that could be real, that was later proven to be real... Oh and for the record, there was also no reason to believe a Greenland Shark could exist because sharks do not thrive in waters that cold.. Until now. (And that's talking about an actual animal that doesn't exist in another dimension)

Yet we are still arguing semantics, show me the proof conclusively saying none of this exists. I don't want people to argue that there is a possibility it doesn't exist, or there are more logical things to believe in..(Because I agree, there is a possibility some of this doesn't exist, and there are more logical things to believe in, but my experiences tell me otherwise) There are countless threads where people say these things absolutely do not exist, and they have proof to back up their claims.. Present THAT.

Edited by xFelix, 30 May 2013 - 05:18 PM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#29    Liquid Gardens

Liquid Gardens

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,677 posts
  • Joined:23 Jun 2012
  • Gender:Male

  • "Or is it just remains of vibrations from echoes long ago"

Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostxFelix, on 30 May 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

Oh I see, so what about the verifiable evidence people keep saying they have that proves that these things absolutely do not exist?
(These are the grounds by which most skeptics tend to condescend onto believers...)

Ha, "prove it": provide your quote of someone saying they have 'verifiable evidence' that 'these things absolutely do not exist'.  Once you do that, you can then proceed to proving that 'most' skeptics do this.  It should be easy to do since you are saying it occurs on 'countless threads'.

By the way, disagreement does not equal condescension.  We are just chatting there's nothing personal here, and you have already said things here that I do mostly agree with.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

#30    scowl

scowl

    Government Agent

  • Closed
  • 4,111 posts
  • Joined:17 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 30 May 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostxFelix, on 30 May 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

So according to your statement, many things that people believe to be paranormal actually have a possibility of existing, but none of this can be proven?

Close. They can exist and can be proved but haven't.

Quote

Oh I see, so what about the verifiable evidence people keep saying they have that proves that these things absolutely do not exist?

I have no idea what you're referring to.

Quote

Again, not having verifiable evidence is not proper grounds for a conclusion.

But predominance of absence of evidence is reasonable grounds for a conclusion until evidence is discovered that contradicts this conclusion. That's because there are a finite number of things that exist yet there is an infinite number of things that don't exist.

Quote

For one to arrive at a proper scientific conclusion one must absolutely prove their hypothesis true or false. Blank is not true or false. If one cannot arrive at true, one must then attempt to prove false, if they cannot prove false they must then settle for an inconclusive finding. This is how scientific method works.

And as we're trying to tell you, a proper hypothesis must be falsifiable. "Prove that something doesn't exist" is not falsifiable therefore it is not a valid hypothesis in the Scientific Method. Until you understand that, don't try to pass your argument as being scientific.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users