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Why did God create us if he knew we would sin


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#226    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:55 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 09 November 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

They absolutely do. If an individual sees a pink elephant with three legs going around in circles on a unicycle, and they believe that it is real... then there is a problem. What they perceive as being real does not necessarily equate to being real. If such an experience can not be subjected to empiricism in a controlled setting, then the sanity of one is questioned.

This is why we have mental institutions; individuals whom have a deluded sense of perception are placed here because they can not function within the real world, as they are living in their own fantasies.


Do you really think if god and angels could stand up to such testing that there would not be such a controversy with regards to their existence? Really, Walker; that is just absurd. The question of god's existence has been questioned since the beginning of organized religion, so do not make foolish statements like that. If god could be proven via empiricism, or angels... then there would be no question, it would simply be accepted fact, which it is not in the realm of science.

And, no... one can not know it was god; one can ASSUME that it was god based on the outcome. Assumptions do not equate to knowledge.

The laws of physics, also, do not concur with such a claim. Money simply can not materialize out of nothing. That was a horrible example.


Your brother giving you money because you asked him to is much different than money materializing because you asked god to materialize it, simply because money does not materialize out of... nothing. It defies the law of physics. If you can make this happen, then may I suggest contacting a group of physicists and showing them that this can be done? There would be much research and testing to be conducted on such a process.


Or, it is simply a coincidence; nothing more, nothing less

Quite frankly, I am starting to question whether or not you are a troll. Most of what you assert or claim does not make any sense whatsoever. You seem to be what I have always claimed, and that is severely deluded... I think you need to find a new psychologist, because the one you currently have clearly is not giving you the proper care that you evidently require.
First point If it is a real, objectively existent, three legged pink elephant, then the person is quite sane and seeing what is there There are all sorts of physical and logicala reality checkers we apply to observed reality to confirm its reality . No need for scientific validation,

Actualy lamost no one is placed in an instituion for that anymore. But certainly some  people do have problems with their physical and mental percetion They have either a physical or a mental disabilty sometimes caused by drugs or alcohol. I do not. And i know that from empirical fact having been told so by the best experts in australia

I hadnt realised you were such an expert on the laws of physics Within 100 years anyone will be able to materialise anything they like, apparently from thin air but actually using a template, energy and matter, which is then transmitted from source to destination via a transmat beam. Given that humans are on the verge of doing this, in historical terms, it is not much of a feat for a god/advanced alien species

The personal comments illustrate your frustration perhaps, at an  educated and articulate person who has a very different experience of reality from your own. I am perfectly sane and healthy, and highly functional. I only wish more people were.

I've been on UM for about 8 years. I've never lied about an experience except where making a deliberate and clear joke, and i try to explain them as clearly and honestly as I can.

Having lived like this all my life for over 60 years, I  honestly cant appreciate how unbelievable it might seem to a person with no such experience. Its like a person who has seen ghosts all their life trying to comprehend what it would be  like for a person living their life  not seeing them.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#227    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:11 PM

View PostJor-el, on 09 November 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

And you know this categorically because?...  Following the biblical view (as found within the Bible), that is not the conclusion we come to.



The text of the Old Testament can be taken a number of ways, but if you add the extra-Biblical texts found in Qumran as just one small example among many you will find it quite clear that the Nephilim are the offspring of angels and human women. The bible itself does not clearly state this but a number of texts within it demonstrate this understanding... An understanding that was later corrupted to something more palatable but erroneous.

Jude 1:6-7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4-7

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men...



And it is from that very context you mention that this understanding comes, whether one is a literalist or not, historically the evidence for this particular view is conclusive.



I do not believe the Nephilim are aliens, nor are the Sons of God aliens. What I specifically stated was the the Sons of God (many times translated as angels or lower gods) forsook their rightful place in the heavenly realm and took on bodies which they used to father children with human women, the offspring of this union is what we call the Nephilim, a genetic mutation, which includes giantism and polydactylism.

These beings known as the Nephilim are also known by another more well known name... demi-gods.

And we know many of their names...
  • Heracles, son of Zeus
  • Perseus, son of Zeus
  • Theseus, son of Poseidon
  • Aeneas, son of Venus
  • Minos, son of Zeus
  • Calais, son of Boreas
  • Zetes, son of Boreas
  • Orpheus, son of Apollo
  • Helen, daughter of Zeus
  • Achilles
  • Adonis
  • Circe, daughter of Hecate
  • Polyphemus, son of Poseidon
  • Pandora
  • Orion
  • Odysseus
  • Paris
  • Maiu (A Hawiian)
  • Polydeuces
  • Castor
  • Iasion
  • Alexander the Great
  • Commodus (A Roman), son of Zeus
  • Xena
  • Kratos
  • Leonides
Of course these are not their original names, but these are all based on those mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Thata a fascinating conjunction of christianity and mythological heroes Again its not my cup of tea but at least i now understand beter your rationales and where you are coming from.

The most important question you asked was, how do i know the nature of god. There are two sources for this knolwedge How god acts in tales told about him  which may represent contact tales, and how he acts with me. Given acts we can extrapolate form and function Given only beliefs we can only construct god as those beliefs allow.  So how god acts is more reliabler than how a witness to those actions interprets his intent or nature.

For example god mentors and teaches me via, voice imagery and imparted direct knolwedge. That tells me something about him He produces visions of futures as a warning,  allowing me to avoid a future for a better one. He provides visions of a future as motivation to show how I can make something wonderful come about. I know from a 40 year relationship with god how he thinks, talks, melds his mind with humans, tell jokes, uses allegory and symbolic metaphors,  and  how he acts; WITH ME.

That of course is the limitation. I can only understand god via our personal relationship (and reading about his relationships with other human beings across all times and cultures) Thus i cannot, and am not qualified to, try and convert others, or tell them only my  form of relationship is viable. Every individual will have a personal and unique relationship with god, because every human is a unique individual.

Edited by Mr Walker, 10 November 2012 - 01:13 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#228    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 10 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

tell jokes

Share some of Gods jokes .Le do thoil ? ..

( Le do thoil = Please  in the Irish language )

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#229    Jor-el

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:30 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 09 November 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

I'm glad you see my points, and it's a good thing we're in the Spirituality vs Skepticism forum :gun:

I always try to see other peoples points, even though I may not agree with them... :tu:

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-C. S. Lewis


#230    Jor-el

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 10 November 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Thata a fascinating conjunction of christianity and mythological heroes Again its not my cup of tea but at least i now understand beter your rationales and where you are coming from.

The most important question you asked was, how do i know the nature of god. There are two sources for this knolwedge How god acts in tales told about him  which may represent contact tales, and how he acts with me. Given acts we can extrapolate form and function Given only beliefs we can only construct god as those beliefs allow.  So how god acts is more reliabler than how a witness to those actions interprets his intent or nature.

For example god mentors and teaches me via, voice imagery and imparted direct knolwedge. That tells me something about him He produces visions of futures as a warning,  allowing me to avoid a future for a better one. He provides visions of a future as motivation to show how I can make something wonderful come about. I know from a 40 year relationship with god how he thinks, talks, melds his mind with humans, tell jokes, uses allegory and symbolic metaphors,  and  how he acts; WITH ME.

That of course is the limitation. I can only understand god via our personal relationship (and reading about his relationships with other human beings across all times and cultures) Thus i cannot, and am not qualified to, try and convert others, or tell them only my  form of relationship is viable. Every individual will have a personal and unique relationship with god, because every human is a unique individual.

Well, the mythological heroes part, was a major part of my studies in Comparative Religion. The biggest error most christians have fallen into is accepting the idea  Monotheism, when the bible clearly states that there are many gods, but only one Creator. That these beings could encarnate in the flesh was also widely accepted, but completely frowned upon today.

Hence their misunderstanding and confusion of the early Genesis stories and the NEED for a "line of Seth" along with a hyperbolic account of how it was mans sin that caused the flood.

The line between spirit and flesh was once alot blurrier than today, our need for scientific explanations for everything drew a sharp line between the two, what people don't get is that in truth there is no actual "line" drawn.

As for your personal understanding of God, through your communion with him, that as you say is a completely personal view, but where do you draw the line between wishful thinking and expectation and your actual experiences?

I have had a few personal experiences with God as well, but he never sat down and had a cup of coffee with me telling me about his nature. What I do understand is that the bible is neccessary as a truth scale when it comes to experiences as people relate them.

The Spirit of God within us all does not contradict itself, thus what he would tell you MUST be identical to what he would tell me about himself. Gods nature does not change just because he speaks to you and to me in different ways. What he tells us though cannnot contradict itself. Therefore people need a scale of some kind, to judge that truth and that experience, that is what the bible is for. We have had countless prophets and ministers with unique revelations, but when push comes to shove, what they tell us cannot contradict the bible.

If we purposefully leave the bible behind, we become mired in confusion as countless experiences contradicting one another become apparent.

The nature of God is one of those elements that most believers agree upon. He is omniscient, he is omnipresent and omnipotent. The only way for a being to posses these qualities, is if he is not bound in any way by space, time or even by matter. Thus by definition he is competely OTHER, completely outside this universe but able to manipulate and interact with it at will.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#231    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

View PostJor-el, on 10 November 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:



Well, the mythological heroes part, was a major part of my studies in Comparative Religion. The biggest error most christians have fallen into is accepting the idea  Monotheism, when the bible clearly states that there are many gods, but only one Creator. That these beings could encarnate in the flesh was also widely accepted, but completely frowned upon today.

Hence their misunderstanding and confusion of the early Genesis stories and the NEED for a "line of Seth" along with a hyperbolic account of how it was mans sin that caused the flood.

The line between spirit and flesh was once alot blurrier than today, our need for scientific explanations for everything drew a sharp line between the two, what people don't get is that in truth there is no actual "line" drawn.

As for your personal understanding of God, through your communion with him, that as you say is a completely personal view, but where do you draw the line between wishful thinking and expectation and your actual experiences?

I have had a few personal experiences with God as well, but he never sat down and had a cup of coffee with me telling me about his nature. What I do understand is that the bible is neccessary as a truth scale when it comes to experiences as people relate them.

The Spirit of God within us all does not contradict itself, thus what he would tell you MUST be identical to what he would tell me about himself. Gods nature does not change just because he speaks to you and to me in different ways. What he tells us though cannnot contradict itself. Therefore people need a scale of some kind, to judge that truth and that experience, that is what the bible is for. We have had countless prophets and ministers with unique revelations, but when push comes to shove, what they tell us cannot contradict the bible.

If we purposefully leave the bible behind, we become mired in confusion as countless experiences contradicting one another become apparent.

The nature of God is one of those elements that most believers agree upon. He is omniscient, he is omnipresent and omnipotent. The only way for a being to posses these qualities, is if he is not bound in any way by space, time or even by matter. Thus by definition he is competely OTHER, completely outside this universe but able to manipulate and interact with it at will.
The bible is a work of spiritual literature not littoral literature ;) it has no more authority than what the individual gives it. There are plenty of other spiritual sources. Most notably directly from god itself.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#232    Jor-el

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 10:22 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

The bible is a work of spiritual literature not littoral literature ;) it has no more authority than what the individual gives it. There are plenty of other spiritual sources. Most notably directly from god itself.

That is actually irrelevant to the issue. The bible may not be literal, but it does give us one thing that cannot be taken from it. The nature and character of God.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#233    White Crane Feather

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:22 PM

View PostJor-el, on 10 November 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:



That is actually irrelevant to the issue. The bible may not be literal, but it does give us one thing that cannot be taken from it. The nature and character of God.
I certainly hope not.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#234    Mr Walker

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:46 AM

View PostJor-el, on 10 November 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Well, the mythological heroes part, was a major part of my studies in Comparative Religion. The biggest error most christians have fallen into is accepting the idea  Monotheism, when the bible clearly states that there are many gods, but only one Creator. That these beings could encarnate in the flesh was also widely accepted, but completely frowned upon today.

Hence their misunderstanding and confusion of the early Genesis stories and the NEED for a "line of Seth" along with a hyperbolic account of how it was mans sin that caused the flood.

The line between spirit and flesh was once alot blurrier than today, our need for scientific explanations for everything drew a sharp line between the two, what people don't get is that in truth there is no actual "line" drawn.

As for your personal understanding of God, through your communion with him, that as you say is a completely personal view, but where do you draw the line between wishful thinking and expectation and your actual experiences?

I have had a few personal experiences with God as well, but he never sat down and had a cup of coffee with me telling me about his nature. What I do understand is that the bible is neccessary as a truth scale when it comes to experiences as people relate them.

The Spirit of God within us all does not contradict itself, thus what he would tell you MUST be identical to what he would tell me about himself. Gods nature does not change just because he speaks to you and to me in different ways. What he tells us though cannnot contradict itself. Therefore people need a scale of some kind, to judge that truth and that experience, that is what the bible is for. We have had countless prophets and ministers with unique revelations, but when push comes to shove, what they tell us cannot contradict the bible.

If we purposefully leave the bible behind, we become mired in confusion as countless experiences contradicting one another become apparent.

The nature of God is one of those elements that most believers agree upon. He is omniscient, he is omnipresent and omnipotent. The only way for a being to posses these qualities, is if he is not bound in any way by space, time or even by matter. Thus by definition he is competely OTHER, completely outside this universe but able to manipulate and interact with it at will.

And because a "real" entity cannot exist outside of time and nature, god cannot be so. I believe those are qualities "given" to god by humans who wanted him to be so.

The bible is a book written in large part (i suspect) by people like me who lived with god; but such people from 2000-4000 years ago coufd NOT peceive god as i do, because none of their other knowledge and understandings allowed them to.

For example the closest thing i can come to describing a merging of gods consciousness with my own is a vulcan mind meld or the transmissionf thoughts. The closes approximation i can give for the appearance ond disappearance of an angel is a transmat beam; and the causation of many miracles is the abilty to alter the balance of matter ad energy to create objects like wine or food. Pre the 20th century such understandings of gods abilities were impossible, yet people heard, saw and experienced the same things i do (Based on their accounts).

Theyhad ot find a way of explaining these things, and without any knolwedge of  modern technolgy they imbued god with onmniscience and omnipotence.

ANd god existed back into cromagnon and neandertal times He long preceded the old or the new testament. So the writings of those books, like those of many other books about god, are a snap shot of human perceptions of god from circa 4000-2000 years ago
And no, despite god's abilities, every human connects with and understands god in an individual fashion. This pertains not to the nature of god but of humanity. Until we become as one we ARE unique and individual beings, and not one of us can really be inside the mind of another (except via god) Thus we will ALL react and respond uniquely to god's presence, god's power and gods interaction in our lives. All our learned knowledge and our emotional responses will shape and form our understanding of god.
I live by the bible from choice and circumstance, but because i do not consider it infallible or literal truth, I can chose to not live by some of its outdated and  now dangerous teachings, while adopting all the positive  and empowering practices therein.

The bible includes cultural practices designed to benefit societies from many millenia ago Some of those practices remain necessary and positive. Some less so and some are simply not acceptable in a modern civilised world. But the intent and motivation behind them, to create, out of love, a better safer society filled with better human beings, remains true.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#235    AwakenAscension

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:24 PM

That is the problem with people attempting to extract and label forces that are inherently universal and uneasy to define. They spend thousands of years trying to explain things that dont make sense to them by creating stories and compiling them together in a large text or bible. These human interpretations are by default, imperfect and have many holes that... instead of taking away the complicated jargon and studying it in a GENERAL scope, they just make up more stories.
Creation is the precursor to experience. The purpose of experience is simply that. There is good, relative to bad. Excitement, relative to boredom. Like colors of a spectrum, life is simply the experience of a duality of Love and Fear on many levels. Then in time experience leans toward the urge to just Be.

Once the threads of fate become entangled,
they can never be undone.
So as we create our destiny, from our own angle,
we stretch and pull this web, as one.

#236    AwakenAscension

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 12:32 PM

As far as "sin" goes.. I believe there is simply what works and what doesn't. Some things are efficient universally and some are not and can only lead to complications, dishonesty with the outer world, reflecting in the inner, and dramas that are all a part of experience. But as the urge to just Be awakens, in life, whatever form that takes in each individual, there is a quieting of the call to commit "sin" or any actions or thoughts that fragment the world of one's perception, feeding a fear of lack and a sense of "need". This call becomes quiter and the voice of the true self becomes more clear.

Once the threads of fate become entangled,
they can never be undone.
So as we create our destiny, from our own angle,
we stretch and pull this web, as one.

#237    Jor-el

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:27 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

I certainly hope not.

That is an answer based on fear... we do not fear what we know, only what we don't know.

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-C. S. Lewis


#238    Jor-el

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 11 November 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

And because a "real" entity cannot exist outside of time and nature, god cannot be so. I believe those are qualities "given" to god by humans who wanted him to be so.

The bible is a book written in large part (i suspect) by people like me who lived with god; but such people from 2000-4000 years ago coufd NOT peceive god as i do, because none of their other knowledge and understandings allowed them to.

For example the closest thing i can come to describing a merging of gods consciousness with my own is a vulcan mind meld or the transmissionf thoughts. The closes approximation i can give for the appearance ond disappearance of an angel is a transmat beam; and the causation of many miracles is the abilty to alter the balance of matter ad energy to create objects like wine or food. Pre the 20th century such understandings of gods abilities were impossible, yet people heard, saw and experienced the same things i do (Based on their accounts).

Theyhad ot find a way of explaining these things, and without any knolwedge of  modern technolgy they imbued god with onmniscience and omnipotence.

ANd god existed back into cromagnon and neandertal times He long preceded the old or the new testament. So the writings of those books, like those of many other books about god, are a snap shot of human perceptions of god from circa 4000-2000 years ago
And no, despite god's abilities, every human connects with and understands god in an individual fashion. This pertains not to the nature of god but of humanity. Until we become as one we ARE unique and individual beings, and not one of us can really be inside the mind of another (except via god) Thus we will ALL react and respond uniquely to god's presence, god's power and gods interaction in our lives. All our learned knowledge and our emotional responses will shape and form our understanding of god.
I live by the bible from choice and circumstance, but because i do not consider it infallible or literal truth, I can chose to not live by some of its outdated and  now dangerous teachings, while adopting all the positive  and empowering practices therein.

The bible includes cultural practices designed to benefit societies from many millenia ago Some of those practices remain necessary and positive. Some less so and some are simply not acceptable in a modern civilised world. But the intent and motivation behind them, to create, out of love, a better safer society filled with better human beings, remains true.

There are things that theoretically exist outside of the constraints of the space-time continuum (the universe), other universes for example, what is "real" cannot be constrained to the material universe. If we go forward on that tangent then we limit God because of our lack of capacity in understanding him. That he can appear to men not only in spirit but also physically, without constraints of time, tells us that the physical Laws that bind us do not apply to him.

That the bible says that he is an eternal being, without beginning and end implies quite specifically to a being not bound by time, he can only be a being that exists from outside of it. Alot can be said about Gods nature, but this is not one of those things, it is repeated time and again throughout the bible.

That being said, I sincerely hope that you are not picking and choosing what to accept about his nature, when you pick and choose what to accept from the bible.

The bible does more than tell us mere human perceptions of God, it tells us who and what God is, because that is how God has chosen to manifest his nature to us. While many things in the bible "may" be myth or fable, those myths and fables all share one thing in common, the revelation of the nature of God.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#239    stevemagegod

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:59 AM

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#240    Likely Guy

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:00 AM

View PostJor-el, on 12 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

It does more than tell us mere human perceptions of God, it tells us who and what God is, because that is how God has chosen to manifest his nature to us. While many things in the bible "may" be myth or fable, those myths and fables all share one thing in common, the revelation of the nature of God.
Which is extremely complex and unknowable.





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