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I'm an atheist who understands christians


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#31    TrueBeliever

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:30 PM

View PostChasingtherabbit, on 09 September 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

In the end it does not seem you understand Christians at all. You might believe you do but you don't. Unless you believe that the dominant narrative, the popular theme used in describing them, is accurate and the only way to describe them. You simply switched from a view a few have to one that most have but neither is the total truth but both are parts of truth. To think one is a lie and the other is fact is a false dichotomy.

You don't even understand the purpose of tongues except to believe it is mumbo jumbo. Not how it works psychologically. The academic who wrote the book I mentioned before wrote he was not fully convinced they were just making it up. Although he did note that in some instances such as when used in Voodoo ceremonies, glossolalia only occurs once the spirit enters them and that in other places it would seem the person would be making  tongues up as a way to enter that very psychological state of possession.

I can understand if just observing the latter group one would get the sense they are just making it up but the altered psychological state of possession that ensues is a separate component.

What is important here is that you did not feel Christianity, or at least that type, was working for you. So now you have something that hopefully does work. But Christianity worked for others. Ultimate truth is not based just on how you or I feel or if it worked for either of us. If you truly understand Christianity you would respect how it works for others and what actual science has to say about it. You understand others who define Christianity a certain way, that is clear, but you hardly understand Christianity.

All that matters for you is that you have found a place of comfort but it is not necessarily the place of ultimate truth for all just for you. So it doesn't matter if you truly understand Christians or not. I just don't think you should claim you understand them but instead perhaps claim you should claim you understand it is not for you. That would allow a sense of authenticity of your self without extending it to others for whom Christianity works for them.

what doesn't really matter is if YOU think YOU understand what SHE understands! got it? good..........LMAO.....

what threatens you about her understanding? because I see a response based on fear......just my opinion so please don't blow a gasket over it...just sharing my observations.


#32    Jessica Christ

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:39 PM

I got the first part of your statement. It obviously matters somewhat to you what I think she understands so that kind of detracts from your point but I generally agree with your point anyway.

As for the second part of your statement it is interesting that you think (feel) that I am threatened and responded based on fear. Maybe because you disagree with my point has led you to that conclusion? If you agreed you might feel otherwise. So your observation is based on how you feel more than what is ultimate truth.


#33    Jessica Christ

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:46 PM

This was also a disappointing thread where I though atheists and Christians would understand each other, encourage each other, accept each other, and give each other hope.

I see no understanding here but I understand many have been harmed by their local church even as others prosper in those churches. For the harmed of course they will turn away and might even have a negative view.

The thread title was totally misleading

I prefer a world of mutual acceptance and co-existance. The bashing that goes on is not something I am a cheerleader of.


#34    TrueBeliever

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 07:58 PM

View PostChasingtherabbit, on 09 September 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

This was also a disappointing thread where I though atheists and Christians would understand each other, encourage each other, accept each other, and give each other hope.

I see no understanding here but I understand many have been harmed by their local church even as others prosper in those churches. For the harmed of course they will turn away and might even have a negative view.

The thread title was totally misleading

I prefer a world of mutual acceptance and co-existance. The bashing that goes on is not something I am a cheerleader of.

it isn't utopia anywhere....and some things are so destructive they must be confronted. It's not love and light and everything nice with christianity you know. There are some serious flaws with it. And because some prosper doesn't make it  ok for those who have suffered. many plantation owners prospered by slavery...of course not so well for the slaves...but if just propsering is enough to make something alright....well, that is flawed.

Not agreeing is not equal to bashing. Criticising a bad idea is not bashing....if you cannot hold your beliefs to scrutiny in a free marketplace of ideas because you think YOU have the ultimate truth.......well you are right......this is no place for you. I welcome full scrutiny of everything I say....If I am wrong I aim to change...if a christian says a doctrine is wrong...they are a heretic


#35    Alienated Being

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 08:35 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 September 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

You deliberately, or in error misdefine purpose. Purpose is a construct of human level sapience. It exists because we create it.  Even if there were not a single other sapient entity in the universe, as long as humans existed we have purpose and we construct purposes for our world our galaxy and our universe. Why on earth assume we are going to "die off"
It exists because we create it, yes... we create our own purpose... however, there is no purpose for us to be alive, other than the purpose that we set out for ourselves. We are merely a species

Quote

We have many options, from self directed evolution into another species( or species) through  simple enhancement  of ourselves. We have the imagination and capacity ot become level 1,2, or 3 galactic  civilizations. Measured by the amount of energy we use (a level one civilization uses all the energy  available on earth including incoming solar radiation. A level 2 akl the available energy from our suns output and other solar sytem sources and a level 3 ALL the energy available in our galaxy Transforming our solar system and even our galaxy is quite feasible. Given enough time we can transform/reshape the unibverse and move beyond it to alternate ones. Nothing is imposible.
I can agree with you - however, I believe that there are creatures in the universe that are much more technologically advanced than what we are.. much, much more. By millions, perhaps a billion years ahead of us.

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The universe will proceed after me but it willl be a dfifernt universe because i lived within it and changed it  for my life span.
It won't be a different universe, because the impact that you have on the universe as it stands is quite insignificant. You can have an impact on your planet... however, in astronomical terms... no. We live. We breed. We die. Between living and dying, we find more ways to screw ourselves over....

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A child i educate today or save from  starvation, might be the one who discovers star drives or matter transmission or   human immortality, or how to make humans into other life forms by genetic manipulation. And if not them then one of their children or grandchildren. And even if none of those things happen, I have changed lives and the direction of the future  for many people. I have already shaped the future of the universe The difference is, that I know i have, and  consciously  set our to do so  from childhood, first by changing myself. My father showed me how to imagine and dream, how to shape, plan, and construct realities for those dreams and imagination, by the use of resources and energy, and how to produce a concrete  end result from imagination and directed effort.
Human immortality is already quite plausible, and is expected to become a fine reality within the next ~50 years. Everything else that you have mentioned is already being actively pursued and worked on...

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The ultimate purpose of entities like humans is to prevent entropy from destroying the universe and to bring about a different, more constructive, outcome. That's a big ask. But we are making the first step, right now, towards this goal.
If history is any indicator, our civilization will fall, just like every other one. I believe if we are to do anything, it will result in the demise of the universe.

You're deluding yourself.


#36    Jessica Christ

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:25 PM

View PostTrueBeliever, on 09 September 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

it isn't utopia anywhere....and some things are so destructive they must be confronted. It's not love and light and everything nice with christianity you know. There are some serious flaws with it. And because some prosper doesn't make it  ok for those who have suffered. many plantation owners prospered by slavery...of course not so well for the slaves...but if just propsering is enough to make something alright....well, that is flawed.

Not agreeing is not equal to bashing. Criticising a bad idea is not bashing....if you cannot hold your beliefs to scrutiny in a free marketplace of ideas because you think YOU have the ultimate truth.......well you are right......this is no place for you. I welcome full scrutiny of everything I say....If I am wrong I aim to change...if a christian says a doctrine is wrong...they are a heretic

I agree with your first paragraph. Many of these churches need to grow and can seem immature because they believe they have the ultimate truth and all should bow to it. Further they should be able to grow at their own pace. I disagree with your second paragraph because it seems you want a license to bash and would desire them to bow to your vision of the world. One can certainly point out a flaw and that does not equate to understanding because they also lack acceptance. Point out a flaw and accept them, that does not mean accept their ideas if you disagree but it does mean allow them to grow at their own pace. An adult screaming at a child because they are not acting like an adult is futile, children are also immature and should be allowed to grow at their own pace. This is no different.

Many switch from one system to another system and believe their second choice is the more superior. Perhaps it is better for their own life but the move was totally parallel when comparing systems if they just switched from one side that bashes, Christians bashing the world, to the other side, the world of people who bash Christians, which is not the whole world, or even the best part of the world where people have their beliefs and allow others theirs.

Edited by Chasingtherabbit, 09 September 2012 - 09:28 PM.


#37    TrueBeliever

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:04 PM

View PostChasingtherabbit, on 09 September 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

I agree with your first paragraph. Many of these churches need to grow and can seem immature because they believe they have the ultimate truth and all should bow to it. Further they should be able to grow at their own pace. I disagree with your second paragraph because it seems you want a license to bash and would desire them to bow to your vision of the world. One can certainly point out a flaw and that does not equate to understanding because they also lack acceptance. Point out a flaw and accept them, that does not mean accept their ideas if you disagree but it does mean allow them to grow at their own pace. An adult screaming at a child because they are not acting like an adult is futile, children are also immature and should be allowed to grow at their own pace. This is no different.

Many switch from one system to another system and believe their second choice is the more superior. Perhaps it is better for their own life but the move was totally parallel when comparing systems if they just switched from one side that bashes, Christians bashing the world, to the other side, the world of people who bash Christians, which is not the whole world, or even the best part of the world where people have their beliefs and allow others theirs.

unlike with christianity I do not scare little kids(or adults) with the threat of hell and eternal damnation if they do not think like i do. I encourage people to think.

Christianity proposes absurd untestable hypotheses and then screams you can't question it! it is divine command! I know because God tells me...lol..........can you NOT see the problem with that? I encourage questioning and talking and analyzing......christianity does not....and it threatens bodily and spiritual harm if one dares stray from its doctrines.


#38    GreenmansGod

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:52 PM

I have seen people speaking in tongues and I have also seen people in trance.  It is the same. I saw it happen in Pagan rituals I have attended They do it in many of the Caribbean religions like VooDoo. You can bring it on by dancing, chanting, prayer or meditation.  What is going on in the brain I don't know.

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#39    emberdawn

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 12:47 AM

I'm sorry you had to go thru this. At least you got to choose religion or not religion.  I wasn't so lucky. I was wakened at age 8 and forced to attend until i was16 my escape was begging  my boss to schedule me every Sunday to work for twelve hours straight or split shifts just to not have to go.  PS I drove past a church today it's name was " life is pain"  drove past another called end of times church.  Yeesshh



#40    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:55 AM

View PostAlienated Being, on 09 September 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

It exists because we create it, yes... we create our own purpose... however, there is no purpose for us to be alive, other than the purpose that we set out for ourselves. We are merely a species


I can agree with you - however, I believe that there are creatures in the universe that are much more technologically advanced than what we are.. much, much more. By millions, perhaps a billion years ahead of us.

It won't be a different universe, because the impact that you have on the universe as it stands is quite insignificant. You can have an impact on your planet... however, in astronomical terms... no. We live. We breed. We die. Between living and dying, we find more ways to screw ourselves over....


Human immortality is already quite plausible, and is expected to become a fine reality within the next ~50 years. Everything else that you have mentioned is already being actively pursued and worked on...


If history is any indicator, our civilization will fall, just like every other one. I believe if we are to do anything, it will result in the demise of the universe.

You're deluding yourself.
Ah youre talking about that "religious sort of purpose some people have. I agree with you on that. NO we werent created for/with a purpose. We evolved one and construct our own

Yes there are, and many which self destructed and some who have not evolved into self aware sapaient beings yet, but will, The universe is teeming with life especially near its centre and in the centre of each galaxy Our here on the rim, we are a bit like a pacific island cut off from european civilization.

who is to judge or an judge insigbificance No human is insognificant although some have a more widepsread influence than others I do all i can and tha tis enough to make a differnce As i said many people would be dead or uneducated or living in extreme poverty if not for me and others like me To them my contribution is VERY seognificant So is it to the thousands of  children i have taught,  many of who tell me how i have changed their lives. Not bragging just stating a reality. No I am not ghandi or paul mccartney but i change the world just the same. Most peole i knoew dont screw others over thei make a positive differnce to others and to the world animals an the environment I think this is a matter of how we feel about ourselves, as much as anything.

Yes i know all those things are being scientifically  studied That s my point. Humans are creators and builders as much as destroyers. Human civilizations dont fall actually, they go though high and lows and new ones build on the old ones.


Deluded ? Perhaps. Time will tell. but at least I am making an effort rather tha sitting back, thinking its hopeless,

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#41    Setton

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 03:35 PM

To the OP: I'm sorry you had such an unpleasant experience. However, as others have said, I don't think you can really claim to understand all Christians. The very fact that you used the term 'fairy tales' in your OP shows that. You may understand a lot of the main denominations (although the fact that you drifted from one to another may suggest you didn't truly grasp the message they tried to convey) but you do not seem to understand Christians on an individual level.

Regarding whether we have a purpose, I refer people to this story http://andrew-ong.co...e-a-difference/. Ignore the religious introduction, it was just the first version I found :)

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#42    Bling

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 05:57 PM

Blimey this topic certainly has got a few people riled up hasn't it?! I don't have to justify myself anymore. I was a christian for over 20 years so of course I understand what it's like to be a christian. I know what it's like to believe in a christian god and live life as a christian. I am not saying I understand every christian because everyone is different, I am saying I understand what it is to be a christian even though I am now an atheist. So chill and don't disrespect my opinion, if you don't like this topic then step away.


#43    Setton

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostBling Zombie, on 10 September 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Blimey this topic certainly has got a few people riled up hasn't it?! I don't have to justify myself anymore. I was a christian for over 20 years so of course I understand what it's like to be a christian. I know what it's like to believe in a christian god and live life as a christian. I am not saying I understand every christian because everyone is different, I am saying I understand what it is to be a christian even though I am now an atheist. So chill and don't disrespect my opinion, if you don't like this topic then step away.

Nobody is riled up or 'disrespecting your opinion'. We are simply pointing out that you are making some quite sweeping generalisations. Understanding of some christians does not mean you can state you understand christians (lack of some implying all).

If you aren't prepared to deal with answers that disagree with you, don't start a topic.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.

#44    Bling

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:51 PM

View PostSetton, on 10 September 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Nobody is riled up or 'disrespecting your opinion'. We are simply pointing out that you are making some quite sweeping generalisations. Understanding of some christians does not mean you can state you understand christians (lack of some implying all).

If you aren't prepared to deal with answers that disagree with you, don't start a topic.

I said I understood what it is to be a christian, I didn't say I understand all christians! I don't mind people disagreeing with me at all, I just think some people need to be a bit more polite and chill out a bit. Maybe you should re-read some posts on here and you'll understand me better. Peace and love!


#45    Setton

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 09:10 PM

View PostBling Zombie, on 10 September 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

I said I understood what it is to be a christian, I didn't say I understand all christians! I don't mind people disagreeing with me at all, I just think some people need to be a bit more polite and chill out a bit. Maybe you should re-read some posts on here and you'll understand me better. Peace and love!

Topic title:
I'm an atheist who understands christians


That may be where the confusion is coming from.

'Good' is not the same as 'nice'.
'No, murder is running your broadsword through someone because he worships a different God to you... Or is that evangelism? I get confused.'
When they discover the centre of the universe, a lot of people are going to be disappointed - They are not it.
I don't object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.




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