Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 1 votes

Are Jews Egyptians ?


  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

#46    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,639 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 February 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Some images from the pdf in my former post:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

I'm not sure if you actually believe this or are just posting an interesting theory, but in either case which Wadi would you propose to be the Jordan River since the Biblical account claims that the Hebrews were on the eastern side of the Jordan and crossed west into what would become Israel? Also, which Wadi would be the corresponding Sea of Galilee?

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#47    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:04 PM

I have the book, but it's in Dutch. Give me some time to find what you are asking about.

And it's not about me ''believing" anything, it's about me posting a challenging theory.


,

Edited by Abramelin, 04 February 2013 - 09:05 PM.


#48    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,639 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:36 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 February 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

I have the book, but it's in Dutch. Give me some time to find what you are asking about.

And it's not about me ''believing" anything, it's about me posting a challenging theory.


,

Okay. Not a hard question and one the writer can't possibly work around IMO.

Cool.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#49    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 04 February 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

Okay. Not a hard question and one the writer can't possibly work around IMO.

Cool.

cormac

He could, but he's dead now.


#50    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,639 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:59 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 February 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

He could, but he's dead now.

I take it then that he conveniently left out an explanation for the Jordan River and Sea of Galilee not being in the maps you posted?

Edit to add:  It's kind of hard to miss things like the Dead Sea, Jordan River and Sea of Galilee. As the saying goes "it's all in the details".

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 04 February 2013 - 10:00 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#51    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 04 February 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

I take it then that he conveniently left out an explanation for the Jordan River and Sea of Galilee not being in the maps you posted?

Edit to add:  It's kind of hard to miss things like the Dead Sea, Jordan River and Sea of Galilee. As the saying goes "it's all in the details".

cormac

You didn't click my links, or you would have known the anser to what you asked.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 04 February 2013 - 10:03 PM.


#52    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,639 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:25 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 04 February 2013 - 10:02 PM, said:

You didn't click my links, or you would have known the anser to what you asked.

.

Actually I did, several times. Downloading PDF's has been a problem the last few days. Finally got it to work though. And no, it doesn't answer my question. It's actually a rather glaring omission IMO. Along with alot of faulty reasoning. But hey, if he's going to be wrong he might as well have been verbose about it.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#53    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • 7,789 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:55 PM

Most sites mentioned in the Old Testament are known archaeologically within the Holy Land. One need not go looking afar. Moreover, numerous lowland and highland sites are known in extrabiblical accounts, namely from the Assyrians and Egyptians.

What's probably the most obvious is archaeology itself. From Megiddo strata of the ninth century BCE to the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran in the first centuries CE, the vast preponderance of ancient Hebraic material culture is found in the Holy Land, not Arabia.

We could go on all day debating whether there was ever a king named Solomon and to what extent, if any, there was even a United Monarchy, as well as any number of other interesting questions, but I rather doubt we could ever logically question the land the ancient Jews called home. I think we can safely classify Kamal Salibi as an historical revisionist, whatever his agenda and motivations may have been. Worth debating, perhaps, but I would never take his conclusions seriously.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#54    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • 7,789 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 04 February 2013 - 11:08 PM

To add to the above, I had meant to post my thoughts on this some time ago but remembered to only now—and that is the idea that the Phoenicians and Hebrews were the same people. They were not, of course.

The fact that the two groups originated from more or less the same ethnic stock is not in question. They were both Semitic peoples speaking a similar dialect and no doubt sharing numerous similar cultural practices until the Hebrews branched out on their own in the development of the Yahweh cult. But that's about as far as we can take the connection.

The Phoenicians as a cultural entity emerged probably several centuries earlier than the Hebrews, although there is still a lot we cannot answer about the socio-politics and economics of the Phoenicians. Misconceptions abound, right down to our name for them—Phoenicians. This word comes from the Greeks and ultimately from one of the generic terms the ancient Egyptians used to classify Canaanites, so it can be misleading to the modern reader. The Phoenicians were never a nation-state but were at most a loose federation of city-states with independent rulers. They were devoutly polytheistic from start to finish and venerated the usual assortment of Levantine deities, so that alone differentiates them from the Hebrews (at least in so far as the course of cultural development the Hebrews ultimately took).

So while the two groups may have come from the same basic ethnic stock, they were definitely not the same people.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#55    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:42 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 04 February 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Actually I did, several times. Downloading PDF's has been a problem the last few days. Finally got it to work though. And no, it doesn't answer my question. It's actually a rather glaring omission IMO. Along with alot of faulty reasoning. But hey, if he's going to be wrong he might as well have been verbose about it.

cormac

I know he said the Jordan River wasn't even a river.

And he also said the Jews left South-Western Arabia and settled in what's now Israel and renamed places according to the paces in their original homeland.

Btw, there are more people than just Salibi who came to this conclusion independently.

I can tell you: when I read his book the first time I thought it was just another wacky theory.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 February 2013 - 07:39 AM.


#56    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:50 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 04 February 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

To add to the above, I had meant to post my thoughts on this some time ago but remembered to only now—and that is the idea that the Phoenicians and Hebrews were the same people. They were not, of course.

The fact that the two groups originated from more or less the same ethnic stock is not in question. They were both Semitic peoples speaking a similar dialect and no doubt sharing numerous similar cultural practices until the Hebrews branched out on their own in the development of the Yahweh cult. But that's about as far as we can take the connection.

The Phoenicians as a cultural entity emerged probably several centuries earlier than the Hebrews, although there is still a lot we cannot answer about the socio-politics and economics of the Phoenicians. Misconceptions abound, right down to our name for them—Phoenicians. This word comes from the Greeks and ultimately from one of the generic terms the ancient Egyptians used to classify Canaanites, so it can be misleading to the modern reader. The Phoenicians were never a nation-state but were at most a loose federation of city-states with independent rulers. They were devoutly polytheistic from start to finish and venerated the usual assortment of Levantine deities, so that alone differentiates them from the Hebrews (at least in so far as the course of cultural development the Hebrews ultimately took).

So while the two groups may have come from the same basic ethnic stock, they were definitely not the same people.

This Israelian professor thought differently:

http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/

And read all the chapters of his online book.


#57    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,639 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:13 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 February 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

I know he said the Jordan River wasn't even a river.

And he also said the Jews left South-Western Arabia and settled in what's now Israel and renamed places according to the paces in their original homeland.

Btw, there are more people than just Salibi who came to this conclusion independently.

I can tell you: when I read his book the first time I thought it was just another wacky theory.



At first his theory was

Which means that he thought the early writers of the Bible must have been too stupid to know the difference between an escarpment and a river. It's rather hard to mistake the two, particularly in a semi-arid or arid climate.

By his reckoning, using similarities in names, I guess we ought to believe that the Egyptians actually lived in Memphis, Tennessee. Damn, I wonder if anyone's told Harte yet? :lol:

Many people reaching a wrong conclusion doesn't make that conclusion right.

I think "wacky" is an understatement.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#58    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:22 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 February 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Which means that he thought the early writers of the Bible must have been too stupid to know the difference between an escarpment and a river. It's rather hard to mistake the two, particularly in a semi-arid or arid climate.

By his reckoning, using similarities in names, I guess we ought to believe that the Egyptians actually lived in Memphis, Tennessee. Damn, I wonder if anyone's told Harte yet? :lol:

Many people reaching a wrong conclusion doesn't make that conclusion right.

I think "wacky" is an understatement.

cormac

You haven't read his book, that much is clear.

And you should before you judge.

The reason I changed my mind about his theory is because others came to the same conclusion, independently.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 February 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#59    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,639 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:05 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 February 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

You haven't read his book, that much is clear.

And you should before you judge.

The reason I changed my mind about his theory is because others came to the same conclusion, independently.


.

I've read enough to know that where Genesis says the Israelites are in the vicinity of the Plains of Jordan, which is located near the Salt Sea (Dead Sea) that that doesn't mean both the Dead Sea and the Jordan River got up and moved to southwest Arabia. And since even Ugaritic texts, amongst others, use 'msrm' as a name for Egypt then these other places wouldn't have confused Egypt with southwestern Arabia. Unless your contention is that nobody knew where Egypt was.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#60    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,110 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 February 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

I've read enough to know that where Genesis says the Israelites are in the vicinity of the Plains of Jordan, which is located near the Salt Sea (Dead Sea) that that doesn't mean both the Dead Sea and the Jordan River got up and moved to southwest Arabia. And since even Ugaritic texts, amongst others, use 'msrm' as a name for Egypt then these other places wouldn't have confused Egypt with southwestern Arabia. Unless your contention is that nobody knew where Egypt was.

cormac

But you haven't read the book and so you don't know how this Salibi explains it. I wish it was online somewehere, so I wouldn't have to translate all of it from Dutch into English. Egypt is still where it always was, but there are more places with 'msrm' as a denomination.

He even has a whole chapter about the invasion of Sheshonq I (Biblical Shishaq) into Judah. Just that it didn't take place in what we know to be Judah. He locates it in Western Arabia.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 February 2013 - 02:20 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users