847 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

It never fails to amaze me: this is about a large submerged area, land that submerged 8200 years ago. But only 2 or 3 people bother to read what it's all about and post their opinions.

I think that most fantasts and crackpots are scared by facts.

This topic is too real for them.

[JohnD]

I know what you mean, Abramelin - I used to tend to believe what I read about "ancient mysteries". I remember being fascinated by Robert Temple's book about the Dogon tribe and Sirius and finding his arguments very convincing indeed...and then a few years later I read something which pretty convincingly proved that the whole thing had been pretty much made up by a couple of French anthropologists and was all rubbish... Just like when I was a kid I used to believe every word of those Charles Berlitz books about Atlantis etc - now I look through them and see them for the hack-work that they are and feel vaguely embarrassed for my younger self. Ah well...

Back on-topic, kind of. I've spent a bit of time reading up on Star Carr, sort of the Mesolithic Sutton Hoo as it's been called. As you probably know, it's in Yorkshire, near the coast on what used to be the shore of a shallow lake, so might provide something of an idea of how the people in Doggerland would have lived a couple of thousand years before the deluge. In fact, the people living at Star Carr may well have spent part of their year in Doggerland too, I would think. Anyway, the antler "mask" they found there is very impressive and evocative, I think - hinting at all kinds of religious and mystical rituals we may never fully understand:



And some artifacts. The thing on the right has been called a paddle for rowing a boat, but some people think it's too small to be a practical paddle. So who knows?



Anyway, I found these interesting.

[Abramelin]

JohnD, on 11 July 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

I know what you mean, Abramelin - I used to tend to believe what I read about "ancient mysteries". I remember being fascinated by Robert Temple's book about the Dogon tribe and Sirius and finding his arguments very convincing indeed...and then a few years later I read something which pretty convincingly proved that the whole thing had been pretty much made up by a couple of French anthropologists and was all rubbish... Just like when I was a kid I used to believe every word of those Charles Berlitz books about Atlantis etc - now I look through them and see them for the hack-work that they are and feel vaguely embarrassed for my younger self. Ah well...

Back on-topic, kind of. I've spent a bit of time reading up on Star Carr, sort of the Mesolithic Sutton Hoo as it's been called. As you probably know, it's in Yorkshire, near the coast on what used to be the shore of a shallow lake, so might provide something of an idea of how the people in Doggerland would have lived a couple of thousand years before the deluge. In fact, the people living at Star Carr may well have spent part of their year in Doggerland too, I would think. Anyway, the antler "mask" they found there is very impressive and evocative, I think - hinting at all kinds of religious and mystical rituals we may never fully understand:



And some artifacts. The thing on the right has been called a paddle for rowing a boat, but some people think it's too small to be a practical paddle. So who knows?



Anyway, I found these interesting.

Thanks for that great image of the mask, John. Never seen it before.

Yes, I have written about Star Carr in this thread, as you may know, and the people living there may certainy have had close connections with what once was Doggerland at it's greatest extent. I too think Star Carr may have been a settlement that was occupied during summer months when the weather was more agreeable, and that its inhabitants moved back to Doggerland when winter set in.

About boats and such: they now know Doggerland was a land of many lakes, rivers and marshes, and I think it wouldn't be a big surprize if the people living there also built boats or canoes for fishing and maybe even for hunting seals and whales. The oldest known dug-out canoe is like a 9000 years old, and found in Pesse in the province of Drenthe, the Netherlands.

[Abramelin]

I found something that doesn't add anything new to what has already been posted in this thread, but it shows what some people 60 years ago thought of the ancient history of the North Sea (and before anyone ever heard of the Storegga Slides):

===


From: THE SEA AROUND US -  by Rachel Carson (1951)


CHAPTER FIVE: HIDDEN LANDS

(...)

Like other legends deeply rooted in folklore, the Atlantis story may have in it an
element of truth. In the shadowy beginnings of human life on earth, primitive men here
and there must have had knowledge of the sinking of an island or a peninsula, perhaps
not with the dramatic suddenness attributed to Atlantis, but well within the time one man
could observe. The witnesses of such a happening would have described it to their
neighbours and children, and so the legend of a sinking continent might have been born.

Such a lost land lies today beneath the waters of the North Sea. Only a few scores of
thousands of years ago, the Dogger Bank was dry land, but now the fishermen drag their
nets over this famed fishing ground, catching cod and hake and flounders among its
drowned tree trunks.

During the Pleistocene, when immense quantities of water were withdrawn from the
ocean and locked up in the glaciers, the floor of the North Sea emerged and for a time
became land. It was a low, wet land, covered with peat bogs; then little by little the
forests from the neighbouring high lands must have moved in, for there were willows and
birches growing among the mosses and ferns. Animals moved down from the mainland
and became established on this land recently won from the sea. There were bears and
wolves and hyenas, the wild ox, the bison, the woolly rhinoceros, and the mammoth.
Primitive men moved through the forests, carrying crude stone instruments; they stalked
deer and other game and with their flints grubbed up the roots of the damp forest.

Then as the glaciers began to retreat and floods from the melting ice poured into the
sea and raised its level, this land became an island. Probably the men escaped to the
mainland before the intervening channel had become too wide, leaving their stone
implements behind. But most of the animals remained, perforce, and little by little their
island shrank, and food became more and more scarce, but there was no escape. Finally
the sea covered the island, claiming the land and all its life.

As for the men who escaped, perhaps in their primitive way they communicated this
story to other men, who passed it down to others through the ages, until it became fixed
in the memory of the race.

None of these facts were part of recorded history until, a generation ago; European
fishermen moved out into the middle of the North Sea and began to trawl on the Dogger.
They soon made out the contours of an irregular plateau nearly as large as Denmark,
lying about 60 feet under water, but sloping off abruptly at its edges into much deeper
water, Their trawls immediately began to bring up a great many things not found on any
ordinary fishing bank. There were loose masses of peat, which the fishermen christened
‘moor-log’. There were many bones, and, although the fishermen could not identify them,
they seemed to belong to large land mammals. All of these objects damaged the nets and
hindered fishing, so whenever possible the fishermen dragged them off the bank and sent
them tumbling into deep water. But they brought back some of the bones, some of the
moor-log and fragments of trees, and the crude stone implements; these specimens were
turned over to-scientists to identify. In this strange debris of the fishing nets the scientists
recognized a whole Pleistocene fauna and flora, and the artifacts of Stone-Age man. And
remembering how once the North Sea had been dry land, they reconstructed the story of
Dogger Bank, the lost island.

http://www.arvindgup...a/seacarson.pdf

http://en.wikipedia....e_Sea_Around_Us


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Edited by Abramelin, 11 July 2011 - 01:30 PM.

[Abramelin]

I am not much into Atlantis theories, but despite that, I think this guy, Ulf Erlingsson, has an interesting theory about it (the next link is to a video on the guy's site):

http://atlantisinire...lantisVideo.mp4

http://atlantisinireland.com/

Oh, and the Silverpit Crater he talks about is not an impact crater, but something to do with salt domes.

+++++

EDIT:

Yes, I know, I have posted about this guy already in this thread.

But maybe someone shows up with even more 'enlightened' ideas after watching the video (which I can't embed for god knows what reason).

Well, he is not talking from his ar.., although I think his 'Ireland/Atlantis' idea is way off.

And this is Ulf's depiction of the Storegga Slide (6145 BC):



Mind you: Doggerland was WAY bigger back then than he depicts in his animation:



And all the pics I have shown in this thread are based on bathymetric scans.

What do you think: is it correct or not?

I think not, and this is why: according to those who discovered about the Storegga Slides said that it took from several hours to 3 DAYS !!.

You think the bathymetric scans will show us how Doggerland really looked like, 6145 BC?

I think lots of topsoil got dragged down the drain, and what modern bathymetric scans show us is what was left of it.

Areas with lots of sand, peat, loose soil and mud that stacked up for many meters would have been flushed.




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Edited by Abramelin, 11 July 2011 - 09:16 PM.

[Abramelin]

Sorry for my continuous editing, but it's kind of hard to portray yourself as a skeptic and being scientific when you are hammered.

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Edited by Abramelin, 11 July 2011 - 09:06 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 11 July 2011 - 08:30 PM, said:

Mind you: Doggerland was WAY bigger back then than he depicts in his animation:



And all the pics I have shown in this thread are based on bathymetric scans.

What do you think: is it correct or not?

I think not, and this is why: according to those who discovered about the Storegga Slides said that it took from several hours to 3 DAYS !!.

You think the bathymetric scans will show us how Doggerland really looked like, 6145 BC?

I think lots of topsoil got dragged down the drain, and what modern bathymetric scans show us is what was left of it.

Areas with lots of sand, peat, loose soil and mud that stacked up for many meters would have been flushed.

Of course bathymetric scans can only show us what is left, but that gives us a reasonably accurate idea of the extent of Doggerland at the time. What can be shown from the bathymetric scans, as well as knowledge of sea-level increase, would be that the area directly north of the Dogger Bank (below 50 meters) would have been covered by water by at least 8000 BC. Even as devastating as the Storegga Slide was, it doesn't answer the question as to where the water that eventually, completely, covered Doggerland came from. I have to wonder what other melting glaciers or ice dams existed at that time to account for that.

cormac

[Abramelin]

You seem to forget Doggerland had already been sinking continuously because of the post-glacial-isostatic rebound/adjustment, and that before Lake Agassiz emptied into the Atlantic, and before the Storegga Slides flushed it at its end.

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Edited by Abramelin, 11 July 2011 - 10:09 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

Abramelin, on 11 July 2011 - 10:08 PM, said:

You seem to forget Doggerland had already been sinking continuously because of the post-glacial-isostatic rebound/adjustment, and that before Lake Agassiz emptied into the Atlantic, and before the Storegga Slides flushed it at its end.

.

Quote

During the time-interval 8200–
8000 calBP, the coastal lowlands of North Germany
and the Netherlands were being steadily inundated
by rising sea-levels due to a combination of eustatic
and isostatic processes (amounting to a rise of 1.25m
per century*, Behre 2003). In addition, there would
have been an abrupt 0.25–0.5m sea-level jump at
around 8300 calBP, marking the sea-level effects of
the catastrophic meltwater release from Lake Agassiz
that triggered the so-called ‘8200 calBP’ cold
event around the Atlantic (e.g. LeGrande 2006; Clare
et al., this issue). Simply stated, due to this coincidence,
it may have been unusually cold and windy
on the remaining coasts of Doggerland.

*  49.21 inches per 100 years or .49 inches per year.

Quote

The freshwater release estimates are of importance
for the present studies, since this water would lead
to an abrupt rise of global-mean sea level. The estimates
range from about 0.25 to 0.5m**, with timescales
of the release thought to be in the order of several
months to a year (e.g. Bauer et al. 2004; Le-
Grande 2006).

** 9.84 - 19.6 inches

The catastrophic final flooding of Doggerland by the Storegga Slide tsunami

So the eustatic/isostatic processes account for the sea level rise of around .49 inches per year, over a 200 year span (8200 - 8000 calBP) while a sudden influx of fresh water 100 years prior (8300 calBP) accounts for 9.84 - 19.6 inches over several months to a year. Even extending the sea level rise (due to eustatic/isostatic processes)  back 100 years to start at the same time as the fresh water influx from Lake Agassiz-Ojibway, we only get .49 X 300 + 19.6 = 166.6 inches (13.88 feet MAXIMUM). Yet the remains of Doggerland are covered by a minimum of 70 feet and have been so for the remainder of the time since. Again, I have to wonder what other glaciers/ice dams may have been, at least in part, responsible for the difference.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Well, Lake Agassiz was not the only huge ice lake that emptied into the ocean, there were equally huge ice lakes in Siberia that did the same after the end of the last ice age.

I once had a nice map that showed these lakes near the Scandinavian ice sheet, bt I can't find it again.

Anyway, another huge ice lake was in southern Siberia, the Altai region:

http://en.wikipedia....an_Glacial_Lake

http://www.mendeley....ast-glaciation/


http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B000RR0I5I

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

However, it's not clear to me when this lake emptied itself.


++++++

EDIT:

Ancylus Lake, the later Baltic

http://en.wikipedia....ory_7500-BC.svg

This fresh water lake breached through southern Sweden at some point in history, and after that was connected wih the North Sea.

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Edited by Abramelin, 12 July 2011 - 09:49 AM.

[Abramelin]

I forgot to add something I found a couple of days earlier, and may give you an answer:

YouTube:

German:
Der Klimawandel lässt den Meeresspiegel ansteigen. Doch wie verteilt sich das zusätzliche Wasser? Verblüffende Erkenntnis der Forscher: Schwächelt der Golfstrom, staut sich das Wasser in der Nordsee auf. Taut das Eis Grönlands, bleibt der Pegel an Deutschlands Küsten praktisch gleich.

English:
Climate change is raising sea level. But how will the extra water be distributed? Stunning revelation of the researchers: it weakens the Gulf Stream, dams/blocks the water in the North Sea. Thaws the ice of Greenland, the sealevel at Germany's coasts remain practically the same.



This German scientis also says that because of the uneven distrubtion of mass, the earth looks like a potato, and also causes the water to be unevenly distributed over the globe, a difference in sealevel which can be as large as a 100 meters (300 feet).

++++++++

EDIT:

Something in English:

GOCE is able to sense tiny variations in the pull of gravity over Earth, and the data is used to construct an idealized surface, which traces gravity lumps and bumps, and is the shape the oceans would take without winds, currents, Earth’s rotation and other forces.

By comparing sea level and geoid data, GOCE is revealing data on ocean currents and circulation, sea-level change, ice dynamics, said Rory Bingham, from the University of Newcastle, which helps understand heat transport and the changing climate.

http://www.universet...otating-potato/



In this GOCE image, gravity is strongest in yellow areas; it is weakest in blue ones. Credit: ESA.

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Edited by Abramelin, 12 July 2011 - 10:55 AM.

[Abramelin]

Here is that map with the melt-water lakes near the Scandinavian ice sheet I was looking for:

Post 236, page 16:



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Edited by Abramelin, 12 July 2011 - 02:59 PM.

[Abramelin]

Please compare the next maps:






This will be a 'toe-crenching' experience to many, but it's a thing I just have to vent.

The rivers Rhine and Elbe have their sources near the source of the Danube, ergo: contact was easy between the North Sea and the Black Sea.

People traded for many thousands of years, and one of the preferred items to trade in was amber.

Poeple are nothing but human crows, and will do anything to get anything shiny.

People living near the Danube must have traded with people living at the coasts of the North Sea.

And they not only traded goods, but stories too.




========

TANATOS: Thanet Island, in Kent?

(The fact that Thanet has more Bronze age burial mounds than anywhere else in Britain which could have been seen right out to sea, and the Isle and already had the name Tane'tus may be just a coincidence. What do you think??

http://www.bbc.co.uk...h_feature.shtml )

-

TARTAROS: the Silverpit 'Crater' (it's not a real crater, but a collapsed salt dome), south of Dogger Bank?

(In classic mythology, below Uranus (sky), Gaia (earth), and Pontus (sea) is Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek ???ta???, deep place). It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides beneath the underworld. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus)



ACHERON: the river Rhine?

(Etymology: From Latin Acheron from Ancient Greek ?????? (Acheron) from ? ??ea ???? (ho akhea rheon, “the stream of woe”.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Acheron.

Think 'Rhone', a river in France, 'flowing'/stream)



ERIDANOS: the river Elbe? or the Kattegat??

(The ancient amber trade route ran from the Baltic Sea, down the Elbe River, and on to the Danube. From there roads led overland through the Brenner Pass into Italy, the heart of the Roman Empire. Rome was the undisputed center of the amber industry. The Romans used amber in a number of different objects, including coins. They apparently valued amber even more than the fair-haired Baltic slaves, the harvesters of amber, whom Tacitus regarded as savages. Not until the third century A.D., when wars with the Goths made such trade in luxury items unsustainable, did the Roman domination of the amber industry come to an end. (See Spekke)

http://www1.american.edu/ted/amber.htm)


PALACE OF HADES: Dogger Bank/Island?

(god knows, maybe there was a woodhenge on the top of what is now the Dogger bank, maybe Hades' Castle )

STYX: the more or less east/west flowing river south of Dogger Bank/Island?

PLEGETHON: the river Vecht (it once flowed between Enkhuizen and Stavoren into the North Sea)?

(Phlegethon - This was the river of fire in Hades. It's said that while the fire burned, it did not consume anything within it's flames.
http://www.spiffy-en...mythrivers.html

VECHT:
http://www.nevenzel....lege/NMKDV.html

This river Vecht once run between Stavoren and Enkhuizen (Netherlands). It must have passed the "Red Cliff" south-west of Friesland. This cliff was once considered to be a volcano because it was in flames occassionally. But now they think it was caused by gas that got ignited.)


LETHE:

"In Greek mythology, Lethe (Λήθη; Classical Greek [ˈlɛːtʰɛː], modern Greek: [ˈliθi]) was one of the five rivers of Hades"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe

LETHE LINK

This is the German version...




http://upload.wikime...5/Hunte_pos.png


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Edited by Abramelin, 14 July 2011 - 08:32 PM.

[Abramelin]

** never mind**

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Edited by Abramelin, 14 July 2011 - 08:29 PM.

[Abramelin]

I remember a guy called "Tony", posting on the Oera Linda thread, asking me if I knew about any Greek names showing up in northern Europe. I showed him a lot of names.

I think I will have to agree with Puzzler: ancient Greeks were in contact with people living at the coasts of the North Sea.

They were in contact by the Rhine/Elbe and the Danube.

These people exchanged goods (amber), but they also exchanged stories.

And no doubt: they will have told the ancestors of the Greeks about the way their ancestoral homeground got flushed by a gigantic wave.

++

Homer must have heard of these stories, and then, many centuries later, Plato heard of these stories too, and then used them for his idea of a doomed society.

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Edited by Abramelin, 14 July 2011 - 09:25 PM.