171 replies to this topic

[Mr Walker]

eight bits, on 22 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

In a recent post in a different thread, I invoked a Jason whose Argo was decocrated with Pennzoil, Bud Light and Doritos decals. Is my Jason "the same as" as the Jason of the ancients? No, that was neither my intention, nor the effect my posting had.

I invoked an archetype and juxtaposed two instances of it, an ancient Jason and a modern race car driver. Because I could rely on the reader knowing what I was talking about, I created something new, something that is neither Jason, although that was the character's name, nor it it any race car driver whao has ever been, either.

It is a insult to Jews to say that Christians and Muslims worship the God of their Hebrew ancestors, in whose name both have murdered Jews wholesale. It is an insult to Chrsitians to say that Allah, who faked the death of the Christian God to bamboozle the Jews, is the Christian God. It is an insult to Muslims to say that they worship a God who has a son. who is his peer. It is an insult to Mormons to say that their God had a son without having sex with the child's mother, and a compound insult that the child's mother wasn't God's wife.

Things which are the same have no differences among them. The Abrahamic Gods.have diffrences among them. They are not the same. That was the question posed to the community. The answer is no.

Some people are easily insulted.  I can sort of see your pov ,but it is too "weird" for me to take seriously. Humans kill other humans  over all sorts of things. We shouldn't, but we do, and we do it very well.  I dont get insulted because the english killed my scottish ancestors  Or by the fact that they had differing religious views.

Whether the god is real or a construct, indeed christians muslims and jews worship the one entity. They kill and fight over perceived differences in that entity, but that is a common human failing and not the fault of god, either real or construct.

I dont even "get" your references to faking death etc. Again, these are human attributions, not who or what the god is,  either in reality or in construction. Did robin marry marion or not? It doesnt matter in terms of the character of robin and his significance in our literary and cultural  history and beliefs.
It is human choice. To see the sameness in god and to live in harmony with that, or to see the differences and kill over them.

All human beings are the same, yet every one of us has differences from all the rest. Some of those differences are small, some large, but none outweigh the basic commonness of us all. Do we allow those differences to divide us and bring conflict, or embrace the basic oneness of all, and use that to bring peace to the world?

Edited by Mr Walker, 22 June 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[Philangeli]

odas, on 21 June 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

Because, I as a muslim, have only one father and only one mother and neither one of them is divine.

Out of interest, do you consider fellow muslims as your 'brothers'?

Wouldn't it be nice if that could be expanded to include all mankind as your brothers and sisters, rather than classing them as believers and non-believers?

And ... as a world family of brothers and sisters, and thus children of God (according to Abrahamic religion), so God, then, is our ... [fill in the gap].

Edited by Philangeli, 22 June 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[Uncle Pockets]

Philangeli, on 22 June 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Out of interest, do you consider fellow muslims as your 'brothers'?

Wouldn't it be nice if that could be expanded to include all mankind as your brothers and sisters, rather than classing them as believers and non-believers?

And ... as a world family of brothers and sisters, and thus children of God (according to Abrahamic religion), so God, then, is our ... [fill in the gap].

There was an Arab scholar who said," You have people who are brothers and sisters through your faith, and you also have people who are equal to you."

Good character is a very important part of faith, and should be shown to all no matter the faith. This is one of the best ways of sharing your beliefs with another.

[eight bits]

Mr Walker

Quote

I dont even "get" your references to faking death etc.

In the Koran, at. 4: 157-158, Mohammed describes how Allah orchestrated a false Jewish belief that they crucified Jesus. It is an extraordinary passage, not only for hitting both Christians and Jews with one shot, but also for how it depists Allah congratulating himself for using falsehood to comfort his messenger, by deciving the people to whom the messenger was sent.

If you haven't read this passage, then of course that severly limits the possibility of our discussing it fruitfully.

In any case, the Nicene Christian view is that Jesus is God. The belief is well founded throughout John and elsewhere in the New Testament. It is clear that neither Jews nor Muslims believe that Jesus is their God.

Those that are the same have no differences among them. The Gods of the several Abrahamic scriptures have differences among them. Allah isn't the same as God in the Bible. It's a yes-or-no question, Mr Walker. The answer is no.

Edited by eight bits, 23 June 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[ZaraKitty]

They're all the same to me.

[Uncle Pockets]

eight bits, on 23 June 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Mr Walker



In the Koran, at. 4: 157-158, Mohammed describes how Allah orchestrated a false Jewish belief that they crucified Jesus. It is an extraordinary passage, not only for hitting both Christians and Jews with one shot, but also for how it depists Allah congratulating himself for using falsehood to comfort his messenger, by deciving the people to whom the messenger was sent.

If you haven't read this passage, then of course that severly limits the possibility of our discussing it fruitfully.

In any case, the Nicene Christian view is that Jesus is God. The belief is well founded throughout John and elsewhere in the New Testament. It is clear that neither Jews nor Muslims believe that Jesus is their God.

Those that are the same have no differences among them. The Gods of the several Abrahamic scriptures have differences among them. Allah isn't the same as God in the Bible. It's a yes-or-no question, Mr Walker. The answer is no.

Deceiving the people? These are the same people who came to Mariam R.A. and doubted the virgin birth of Jesus pbuh. Jesus pbuh continually found himself insulted on this issue when he invited people towards what is right. His stay may have been brief but the hardship experienced was a heavy burden.


The hadith's that speak of Jesus speak well of the doubt that the Apostles continually showed even with all of the miracles that Jesus pbuh was able to perform with the will of the Creator. Indeed, they planned against him but God is the greatest of planners. If you approach what happened with an open mind, it makes complete sense.

Allah (swt) clearly says: I am as my slave thinks I am.

[eight bits]

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Deceiving the people? These are the same people who came to Mariam R.A. and doubted the virgin birth of Jesus pbuh. Jesus pbuh continually found himself insulted on this issue when he invited people towards what is right. His stay may have been brief but the hardship experienced was a heavy burden.

The passage I cited depicts Allah saying that he created a false appearance in order that the Jews would believe something that wasn't true. In English, that is called deception.

It is interesting that in a thread about the possible identity of the several religions' deities that you append "pbuh" to the name of the Nicene Christian God, Jesus. According to these Christians, Jesus isn't dead right now. There is no "peace" to be "upon him." He is, in their view but not yours, as alive as you or I are alive, no less so for now and hereafter being bodily incorruptible, and of course being God comes with its own perks.

Quote

  If you approach what happened with an open mind, it makes complete sense.

I am agnostic, actually, more often criticized for an excess of open-mindedness than any want of it.. I didn't comment whether or not anything made sense, I only said what it was. Since the topic is the similariites and differences among the Abrahamic deities, this was on-topic. It illustrates a difference, one among many, between Jews and Muslims about how God behaves when he sends a messenger. Of course, from the Christian perspective, Jesus is nobody's message boy in the first place.

[Uncle Pockets]

Jesus pbuh made the supplication as a child, "Salam (peace) be upon me the day l was born, and the day l die and the day l shall be raised alive."

Your perception of it is your own. Best to find a scholarly explanation of the passage that you read.

A more fit thought to have is how we behaved when God sent messengers to us. Religion cannot be changed to fit our modern society. Innovation is a scary ordeal.

[Philangeli]

Uncle Pockets, on 23 June 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

Religion cannot be changed to fit our modern society. Innovation is a scary ordeal.

Yes, it's very scary, like going from stoning women to death for supposed adultery, to giving them a fair say in court.

[Fox.Mulder]

Yep
the same God in the Holy Bible
in Islam there is no God except only one God
Same thing in Jews and Christians they and we Believe in one True God
but there is some mistake when they say that Jesus is a God ! Jesus he is nut a God he is one of God
http://en.wikipedia..../Jesus_in_Islam

[odas]

eight bits, on 23 June 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

It is interesting that in a thread about the possible identity of the several religions' deities that you append "pbuh" to the name of the Nicene Christian God, Jesus. According to these Christians, Jesus isn't dead right now. There is no "peace" to be "upon him." He is, in their view but not yours, as alive as you or I are alive, no less so for now and hereafter being bodily incorruptible, and of course being God comes with its own perks.

In Islam a person does not realy die and muslims refer to someones death as "moving". Pbh we say to anyone who is not with us on this earth in the shell that we are used to see and identify someone as such. Therefore the person is not dead but has moved to another place until judgment day.

[eight bits]

Quote

In Islam a person does not realy die and muslims refer to someones death as "moving". Pbh we say to anyone who is not with us on this earth in the shell that we are used to see and identify someone as such. Therefore the person is not dead but has moved to another place until judgment day

Thank you for that, but the (Nicene) Christian view is that Jesus is currently in a shell, his body, the same sort of human body that eventually all people will have. His is more durable than our equipment, but it is a body, a human body, and it is his. Also, while Christians expect Jesus to appear on Judgment Day, he is not confined to heaven in the meantime.

For example, they believe that he appeared personally to Paul and spoke, obviously a bodily function and obviously indicating his bodily presence on Earth. That would be the same body in which he interacted with his other Apostles, after his Resurrection. To the extent that Jesus is usually in  heaven nowadays, it is not because he died, but rather because he ascended there bodily, very much alive, after having been dead for a short while. Besides, he has duties in heaven to attend to, namely running the Universe, as God.

Christians, like Muslims, often wish peace on dead people (whom they believe to be spiritually alive, now possibly asleep or confined somewhere awaiting final judgment), and say along with their names formulae like "John, God rest his soul." (Exact formulae vary with culture, of course).

No Christian would ever say "Jesus, God rest his soul," or any such formula.

It is not my purpose to say that one person is right and the other is wrong. The question posed in the thread is "same or different?" Root and branch, from the most abstruse theology to the most common formula used when referring to the dead, Muslims and Christians worship different Gods.

[odas]

Fox.Mulder, on 23 June 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Yep
the same God in the Holy Bible
in Islam there is no God except only one God
Same thing in Jews and Christians they and we Believe in one True God
but there is some mistake when they say that Jesus is a God ! Jesus he is nut a God he is one of God
http://en.wikipedia..../Jesus_in_Islam

Many times people who speak arabic have tried to translate the term Allah and make it understandable to non arabs. The term Allah is  derived from Al (the) and Illah (god) meaning The God, Allah. The Eshaded sais, Eshhedu en Lah illahe il Allah... There is no god but The God...
Yes, Allah, in pre-Islamic Mecca was one of many gods, regarded as possibly the supreeme god, hence was called the God. This needs further explanation by someone who is fluent in both, arabic and english.
Arabic speaking christians, jews use the term Allah. The Aramaic word for God is Elaha or Alaha. This word was very likely used by Jesus himself.
Hebrew and arabic are semitic languages hence the similarity of Allah and the bibilical Eloah.

We all, Jews, Christians (especialy them) and Muslims have to understand that our monontheistic religions have roots in pagan cultures where there were many gods but one that was the supreeme one. It is pointless to point fingers at the other believe system, mostly to hide irregularities within their own religion.

Above I singled out a bit the christian faith since some members of it are very strong in their accusations that Islam and Allah are not the same God as in the bible and that it is not an Abrahamic religion. I am not going to defend either one, they are able to defend themself, but ask a few questions in regard to Christian belief and the monotheistic abrahamic religion.

I am Lord, thy God
Does it say he is one ore a part of a trinity? In islam an judaism this is not the case.

Thou shall not have other gods
Again, how come christians believe in trinity since it implicates that there are more gods or one god assembled by three. ( Honestly no insult I just can not understand this as being opposit of the comandment, forgive my unintendent ignoracy) In judaism and islam this is not the case.

No graven immages or likenesses
How come christians have so many immages and likenesses ( unlike judaism and islam) . How come christians pray to the statues they have build to represent eith god or a deity they think it is?
How come christians can pray to regular people who they call saints?


It seems to me that few questions could be asked here to those who say that Islam is not an abrahamic religion and that Allah is not the same God as in the bible.. Why is christianity so much different from Judaism and Islam?
Why do christians pray to other gods or godlike statues?
Is christianity realy a monotheistic religion?

[Philangeli]

I was afraid this topic would wander off down other roads of counter-criticism - yes, some perfectly valid questions, but why not start a separate topic?

I've asked the question several times, but I don't think it has been answered:

If Allah is the same God as in the Bible, why did he exhort his messenger to attack others who already believed in Him? I posted the link earlier where there are dozens of examples in the Quran.

Edited by Philangeli, 25 June 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Knight Of Shadows]

Philangeli, on 25 June 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I was afraid this topic would wander off down other roads of counter-criticism - yes, some perfectly valid questions, but why not start a separate topic?

I've asked the question several times, but I don't think it has been answered:

If Allah is the same God as in the Bible, why did he exhort his messenger to attack others who already believed in Him? I posted the link earlier where there are dozens of examples in the Quran.

your question is lacking with all due respect
can you tell me who god in the bible is ? so we can answer you clearly ?