49 replies to this topic

[Magicjax]

Like many discussions. This one has gone in many directions. I'm just focusing on the original OP.

I can't speak for him. But based on what I've read and heard him say. He dislikes religion so much because he knows the natural world is much more mysterious, interesting, beautiful and compelling than the mythical world. Before anyone jumps in me again by saying religion isn't mythical. Look up the meaning. Religion fits it perfectly.

I also think he dislikes religion because he chooses not to ignore the dangers it can bring. No one can dispute that religion has done terrible things. I don't think there's any need for me to list them all. We all know its true even if we don't admit it. One can argue that not all religion is bad. But I argue that it all is. That's not saying all religious people are bad. On the contrary a majority are good. But they're all, even terrible people, are better than their religion. The worse people I can think of in history are better than most religious teachings and history. The reason is most people don't really fallow their own religions teaching. Just parts of it they like.

I also think he dislikes religion because he sees how it has and does get in the way of advances. History will tell you that when religion is in the front line of a society, advances are minimized. More wars unfold and so forth.

Just my opinion.

[Habitat]

Magicjax, on 18 October 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Like many discussions. This one has gone in many directions. I'm just focusing on the original OP.

I can't speak for him. But based on what I've read and heard him say. He dislikes religion so much because he knows the natural world is much more mysterious, interesting, beautiful and compelling than the mythical world. Before anyone jumps in me again by saying religion isn't mythical. Look up the meaning. Religion fits it perfectly.

I also think he dislikes religion because he chooses not to ignore the dangers it can bring. No one can dispute that religion has done terrible things. I don't think there's any need for me to list them all. We all know its true even if we don't admit it. One can argue that not all religion is bad. But I argue that it all is. That's not saying all religious people are bad. On the contrary a majority are good. But they're all, even terrible people, are better than their religion. The worse people I can think of in history are better than most religious teachings and history. The reason is most people don't really fallow their own religions teaching. Just parts of it they like.

I also think he dislikes religion because he sees how it has and does get in the way of advances. History will tell you that when religion is in the front line of a society, advances are minimized. More wars unfold and so forth.

Just my opinion.

One of the more ridiculous rants I've read on this site. "The reason is most people don't really fallow (sic) their own religions teaching. Just parts of it they like" A bit like criminals who observe the laws they "like" but disregard the rest, do you think ? And that is the fault of the laws presumably ? Seems to me you are getting confused about a lot of things. There is no doubt that in many, even most wars, religious difference has been co-opted as a propaganda tool to emphasise the alien, outlandish nature of the enemy. But only one among many ways used to motivate and mobilise populations to make it easier to wage war. I invite you to explain how religion caused the wars of the last 100 years, or even were a minor contributory factor to them. You will have your work cut out imo.

[Magicjax]

Are you seriously asking if religion played a huge part in the war we are now in? What do you think was on the minds if those that killed themselves and many other as they knew their lives were about to end as they headed toward the two towers?  Or any terrorist act we've seen in recent years when the attacker knew they where going to die as they did it?  Name one terrorist that didn't get the "courage" to do what they did if they  didn't believe they'd receive special rewards for it in the after life (along with 40 virgins in some cases)?  Do you think those acts still would have happened had they not had those religious beliefs of eternal bliss in the afterlife?

Edited by Magicjax, 19 October 2012 - 12:00 AM.

[Habitat]

You are in a war in Afghanistan that is being fought to preserve American prestige, a punitive expeditionary war to oust for as long as practicable a regime that hosted radical extremists that committed mass murder. They lodged there because they could, they were mainly Arabs with a professed desire to punish America for its interference in what they consider Arab lands. They are not interested in converting Americans to a different religion, nor are Americans interested in converting them to a different creed. Do you think if America had not sponsored Israel in the way it has, you would ever have heard of Bin Laden ? This conflict is far more entrenched in  cultural differences than religion, but of course it is a point of difference and will be used to rally support. Essentially, though, it is not "about" religion at all, any more than the medieval crusades were, it was a clash of cultures and their spheres of influence. Is there any doubt in the opinion of Arab "street" that America has been partial in the conflict between Israel and its neighbours ? That is far and away the most important prime mover in conscripting support to radical Arab terrorism, as misguided as it seems to outsiders.

[Habitat]

Magicjax, on 18 October 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Are you seriously asking if religion played a huge part in the war we are now in? What do you think was on the minds if those that killed themselves and many other as they knew their lives were about to end as they headed toward the two towers?  Or any terrorist act we've seen in recent years when the attacker knew they where going to die as they did it?  Name one terrorist that didn't get the "courage" to do what they did if they  didn't believe they'd receive special rewards for it in the after life (along with 40 virgins in some cases)?  Do you think those acts still would have happened had they not had those religious beliefs of eternal bliss in the afterlife?

Brainwashed combatants are not unusual in warfare, these tales of virgins etc serve to de-legitimize the motives of the radicals, the last thing any American seems to ask themselves is "why do these people hate us so much ? " and writing these people off as religious fanatics with no basis of  any real grievance for their actions serves to keep that kind of question off the agenda. I have no truck with Bin Laden and his band of killers, they are beyond redemption, but I can see what has motivated them, however misguidedly, and it is not religion.

Edited by Habitat, 19 October 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[Magicjax]

Ok. Take religion out of it. Imagine religion does not exist. It was never dreamed up. Would this war still be happening?

Think of the key moments. would they have happened without religion?  

I know it's not the total reason. I know there's much more to it. I was asked "I invite you to explain the wars that religion caused over the last 100 years". I'm responding by stating that without religion the key events that brought us to war would not have taken place had religious beliefs not been in place in the minds of those that executed those events. Hens, 911 wouldn't have happened without it. I'm not saying its the entire reason. But without those people believing they'll be rewarded in the afterlife for their actions. They wouldn't have willingly done it.

I believe I have expressed one example, which is what was asked, of how religion has resulted in war. But it's only a scratch on the surface of events that caused terrible things in the name of religion.

Edited by Magicjax, 19 October 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[Magicjax]

The civil war was heavily connected to religion. Can anyone dispute that?  I'm only responding to the request to give examples.

I'm not saying every single aspect of religion is terrible. I know there's some good in it. Well actually no good from religion. But good has been done by people that credit their good deeds to religion. I just wish the people would realize its the people that do good. Not the religion. Give credit where it's due and receive credit when you've earned it. Don't pass the love, admiration, thanks, passion on to "god did it". Take pride in yourself when "you did it".

Edited by Magicjax, 19 October 2012 - 01:56 AM.

[Habitat]

A different religious tradition is hi-jacked by warmongers as a point of difference to stylize the enemy as degenerate, just as derogatory references to dress differences ( e.g "ragheads") or different diet etc come into play, but it is ridiculous to say radicals want to kill Americans because they are of a different religion, they don't need to travel too far to find any number of different religions. When I was a young person we were propagandized with the idea that communism was a monolithic menace trying to take over the world, a kind of secular religion ( if that isn't a tautology) spreading its tentacles everywhere, when in reality places like Vietnam were simply undergoing a post-colonial power struggle, and there was no real intent to spread the "religion"  beyond its borders by the eventual winners. The dominoes did not fall, as was forecast to be a certainty if Vietnam "fell". There is no doubt that the "religion" of communism was hi-jacked by a lot of nationalist movements, but once power was achieved they have shown remarkably little fidelity to its tenets, instead embracing capitalism enthusiastically. I suspect that radical muslim movements would follow the same pattern, were political power gained, they would drop the religious slant like a hot potato.

[Seeker79]

Chinese imperialism used anti religion as a slant for aggression. Invaded and killed many in Tibet and other places.

I'm no fan of religion either, but "guns do not kill people, people kill people."

Likewise, if there were no religions, our past would be just as violent, we would just have other kinds of ideologies to blame other than spiritual ones.