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A More Secular Europe

christianity europe secularism

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#1    DieChecker

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:09 AM

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

Quote

“They let me in wearing my cross,” the archbishop recalled.

It therefore came as a rude surprise when, late last year, the National Bank of Slovakia announced that the European Commission, the union’s executive arm, had ordered it to remove halos and crosses from special commemorative euro coins due to be minted this summer.

The coins, designed by a local artist, were intended to celebrate the 1,150th anniversary of Christianity’s arrival in Slovak lands but have instead become tokens of the faith’s retreat from contemporary Europe. They featured two evangelizing Byzantine monks, Cyril and Methodius, their heads crowned by halos and one’s robe decorated with crosses, which fell foul of European diversity rules that ban any tilt toward a single faith.

Quote

“There is a general suspicion of anything religious, a view that faith should be kept out of the public sphere,” said Gudrun Kugler, director of the Observatory on Intolerance and Discrimination against Christians, a Vienna-based research and lobbying group. “There is a very strong current of radical secularism,” she said, adding that this affects all religions but is particularly strong against Christianity because of a view that “Christianity dominated unfairly for centuries” and needs to be put in its place.

Ms. von Schnurbein dismissed accusations of an anti-Christian agenda. The European Union, she said, “is often seen as trying to eliminate religion, but that is really not the case.” She added, “We deal with people of faith and also people of no faith.”

Quote

Archbishop Zvolensky of Bratislava predicted that efforts at European unity are doomed unless the union gives a bigger place to God. “Religion should be the inner strength of the union,” he said.

He does see one encouraging sign: Slovakia’s national bank has decided to stick with its original coin design and abandon plans for a halo-free minting in honor of Cyril and Methodius.

The European Commission has gone along with this, and the commemorative coins will finally be minted next month — two months later than originally planned — but with halos and crosses.

I think maybe the EU is going a little too far. They are basically working to remove Religion from the Public world. Trying to promote people from being open with their religion.

At least Slovakia stood it's ground and got what it wanted.

Does having a halo on a figure on a coin really represent Religious Intollerance??

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#2    libstaK

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:31 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 18 June 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0


I think maybe the EU is going a little too far. They are basically working to remove Religion from the Public world. Trying to promote people from being open with their religion.

At least Slovakia stood it's ground and got what it wanted.

Does having a halo on a figure on a coin really represent Religious Intollerance??
If it's deemed as legal tender than I am not sure it is appropriate - material wealth does not "the Kingdom of Heaven" make.  They may have been better off just remembering to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" and using some other means of commemoration that is not associated with material wealth if their religion is so important to them.

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In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#3    Zaphod222

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:35 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 18 June 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

I think maybe the EU is going a little too far. They are basically working to remove Religion from the Public world. Trying to promote people from being open with their religion.

They are trying to erase Europe`s history, and replace it with a multi-cultural fiction. In which political islam will assume the dominant role.

It is civilizational suicide.

I assign it to stupidity. However, if you assume a plan behind it, read "Eurabia" by Bat Yeor. She does have some good arguments.

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#4    Arbenol68

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:55 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 18 June 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

They are trying to erase Europe`s history, and replace it with a multi-cultural fiction. In which political islam will assume the dominant role.

It is civilizational suicide.

I assign it to stupidity. However, if you assume a plan behind it, read "Eurabia" by Bat Yeor. She does have some good arguments.

You make some good points. But I don't think they're trying to erase Europe's history, just define it's present.

I don't believe it's intentional to bring in an era of Islam in Europe, but that may be the result. If Europe had a stable population then, naturally, it would develop toward a strongly secular (if not atheist) society. Indeed, that can be seen happening in the examples given in the article.

But as Europe becomes secular, immigrants and their descendants may become more numerous. However, despite the fear of Europe becoming predominantly Islamic, I can't really see this happening. Many immigrants embrace and absorb the culture they move to, and will support secular government. No doubt religious radicals will continue to exist, but I think they're more likely to remain a noisy (and occasionally dangerous) minority.

However, it actually pans out. It looks like Christianity will be the big loser in Europe.


#5    Frank Merton

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:19 AM

It doesn't bother me that Catholics and Buddhists have a running competition here on who can erect the largest statues (although of course the bloody Jesu on the cross is unpleasant).  They do it with their own money on their own land, and even though what they do is an intrusion and sometimes ruins beautiful vistas, compromise is needed for a diverse society to function.

I don't like the idea of religious symbols and slogans on public property or on the currency and so on.  In this situation I guess if the main reason is respect for the culture and history, it might be best to look the other way and compromise strictly secular laws, but it does send the wrong message.  The majority needs to always consider the minority, and refrain from imposing itself.


#6    Ever Learning

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:46 AM

i think that Slovakia are right in being able to keep their coins how they wish, but their faith in god should be the only thing that matters to them, give the atheists their coins. ;)

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#7    shrooma

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:11 AM

what happens when the moon is in its crescent phase, do they expect all europeans to walk around blindfolded in case they catch a glimpse of an islamic symbol?
what of religious architecture? do we tear down the hagia sophia? st pauls cathedral? stonehenge? do we ban nativity scenes at christmas? stop the sun rising at ramadan? how about forcefeeding jews pork?
whatever happened to a bit of tolerence eh?
seeing a cross around someone's neck will make me turn into a christian about as much as my grandma's glass of sherry on her birthday will turn her into a hardened meths drinker.
if religion is dying on its collective ass, let it do so with a little dignity, instead of getting worked up about petty things like displaying halo's on coins.
people couldn't care less one way or another these days, and its about time that petty bureaucrassy realised we don't all walk round in a permanent state of mortal offence.

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#8    shadowhive

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:06 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 18 June 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0


I think maybe the EU is going a little too far. They are basically working to remove Religion from the Public world. Trying to promote people from being open with their religion.

At least Slovakia stood it's ground and got what it wanted.

Does having a halo on a figure on a coin really represent Religious Intollerance??

I think religion should have no place on public, general coins but cemmorative ones? Cemmorative ones are different entirely and I see no issue there.

To be honest, religion should be kept out of the public sphere entirely. This makes sense in countries where multiple faiths live side by side. I don't understand why chistians have such a problem with this. Could it be because christians 'dominated unfairly for centuries' and as such have never had to deal with this before because they always got their own way?

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
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#9    Ever Learning

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:10 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 18 June 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

I think religion should have no place on public, general coins but cemmorative ones? Cemmorative ones are different entirely and I see no issue there.

To be honest, religion should be kept out of the public sphere entirely. This makes sense in countries where multiple faiths live side by side. I don't understand why Christians* have such a problem with this. Could it be because Christians* 'dominated unfairly for centuries' and as such have never had to deal with this before because they always got their own way?
i think you see what you want too and can only see the bad effects of Christianity. you only have to read a unbiased book on European history to see that Christianity has a big place in history, and most people are proud of their heritage. its only the naive who assume all religions can live side by side, read any of their theologies and you will see this is true. unless you want a watered down religion that cant even view its own source. why should countries who have a majority of population of one faith have to give it up for the minority.
religion map
http://www.google.co...FQQ9QEwAw&dur=4

history of modern christian aid
http://www.christian...us/who/history/

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#10    shadowhive

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:01 PM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 18 June 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

i think you see what you want too and can only see the bad effects of Christianity. you only have to read a unbiased book on European history to see that Christianity has a big place in history, and most people are proud of their heritage. its only the naive who assume all religions can live side by side, read any of their theologies and you will see this is true. unless you want a watered down religion that cant even view its own source. why should countries who have a majority of population of one faith have to give it up for the minority.
religion map
http://www.google.co...FQQ9QEwAw&dur=4

history of modern christian aid
http://www.christian...us/who/history/

I've not denied that christianity has had a big place in history but we are not livin in history we are living in the here and now. Religions have to learn to live side by side. Christianity no longer has the ability to simply stomp the others out. It's also important to note that Europe is not a theocracy so the thoughts of a religion (even a majority one) should have no real baring on society.

No one is suggesting that people give up their faith just that they don't act like spoilt children because of it.

Edited by shadowhive, 18 June 2013 - 01:03 PM.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#11    Frank Merton

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:11 PM

I like what you said, although I would say that with some of these religions the time has come to give them up with what we now know of the world.


#12    shadowhive

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:12 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 18 June 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

I like what you said, although I would say that with some of these religions the time has come to give them up with what we now know of the world.

I agree, it would be ideal to give some of them up. But I'd settle for them managing to play nice with others.

So just take off that disguise, everyone knows that you're only, pretty on the outside
Where are those droideka?
No one can tell you who you are
"There's the trouble with fanatics. They're easy to manipulate, but somehow they take everything five steps too far."
"The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevent, it's what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are."

#13    shrooma

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:25 PM

View Postshadowhive, on 18 June 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Religions have to learn to live side by side.
.
the religious AND the atheistic.
i'm not a believer in any way, and while I think the religious are a little bit odd for wanting to believe an outmoded concept like an all-powerful creator, there's no way i'd want to stop them from doing so!
religion is between one man and his god, nothing to do with me really, and if believers find comfort in their belief, then good luck to 'em!
I would no more find offense in religious symbolism than I would if I saw someone wearing the shirt of a football team I didn't support, or a band I don't listen to.
each to their own is good enough for me.....

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#14    DieChecker

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 01:10 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 18 June 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

They are trying to erase Europe`s history, and replace it with a multi-cultural fiction. In which political islam will assume the dominant role.

It is civilizational suicide.

I assign it to stupidity. However, if you assume a plan behind it, read "Eurabia" by Bat Yeor. She does have some good arguments.
I do agree with what Zaphod says that being too "touchy feely" about being inclusive and non-offending will eventually have the effect of allowing immigrants to water down what it means to be European. They are allowing their culture to be made less like it was and more like those who who want to come there.

True, this happens anyway, but usually the change is part of the assimilation of new peoples,as they become part of that culture. With the new people having to do 90% of the changing. But this is assimilation without requiring any change by the new peoples. Effectively the beliefs of the new peoples become more important then those of the old peoples.

Edited by DieChecker, 19 June 2013 - 01:11 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker





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