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France’s Beast of Gévaudan


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#31    Thegreatsilence

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:04 PM

If the Beast had really 40 teeth like you said, then you can put away the Wolf-dog hybrid hypothesis, because one of the best way to identify an animal is to look at its dentition. Besides an anonymous author of the 18th century named it with the genus Lycopardus, which translates as "Panther-Wolf", consistent with what I mentioned before. There was an extinct group of canid called Hemicyonid whose members quite fit the bill IMO given that they were described to show tiger-like proportions and dog-like teeth !

Edited by Thegreatsilence, 24 October 2012 - 12:26 PM.


#32    AshenPhoenix

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:53 PM

View PostZirna, on 31 May 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I have personaly gotten to interact with wolf-dog hybrids,  Not all of them are aggressive.   Their characteristics are determined by both parents, so it's possible that the wolf-dog hybrid that your grandfather owned could have an ancestry that contains a bloodline from a domestic dog known for violence.  That's why most breeders don't use pitbulls and the such, normaly they use german shephereds and malimutes.
As a side note to this, dogs tend to take on the personalities of their owners.  If the owner is angry and violent, the dog will be too.  Pit bulls have a bad rap but they are one of the most loving & protective breeds.  It's the morons who kick, hit & yell at them that cause them to become aggressive and give the breed a bad name.


#33    WGH

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:05 PM

View PostAshenPhoenix, on 24 October 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

As a side note to this, dogs tend to take on the personalities of their owners.  If the owner is angry and violent, the dog will be too.  Pit bulls have a bad rap but they are one of the most loving & protective breeds.  It's the morons who kick, hit & yell at them that cause them to become aggressive and give the breed a bad name.


Bang on there, Ive met jack russels that are far more savage than any pit bull. Its all to do with the upbringing imo.
Edit: Random small font size.

Edited by WGH, 24 October 2012 - 03:06 PM.


#34    La Bete Feroce

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:55 PM

@ TheGreatSilence, I've heard the bear dog theory but I don't feel it fits. The entire ordeal wreaks of human involvement, from the pattern of attacks based on date and location, to the lull in killings during the Chastels' imprisonment, and up to the very death of the Beast itself. This suggests a known animal capable of being trained to kill. For me, this whittles down the options to either a hyena or wolf-dog hybrid. The Marin report supports wolf-dog, while the museum of history in Paris claims that they did in fact receive the body in 1766, and identified it as a striped hyena. So you have two reputable sources conflicting with one another... Now, we do however know that the Beast had a mate who was present at several attacks. The chances of two hyenas is slim, but a large wolf-dog could have a female wolf for a companion.

Edited by La Bete Feroce, 24 October 2012 - 06:06 PM.


#35    Thegreatsilence

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

IMO I think Chastel was used as a scapegoat because he owned a red-coloured mastiff. Now the Beast was mostly described with this color. And a mastiff is not an agile animal.


#36    Abramelin

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:28 PM

The way the people in the 18th century depicted the Beast did not resemble a hyena or an African wild dog.

I also have serious doubts it was a still living member of the tens of millions extinct Hemicyonids. There would have to be a breeding population for that to be possible.

I am convinced it was either a large wolf, or a wolf-dog hybrid.

Raise such a hybrid like my grandfather did, and you will create a true monster, like AshenPhoenix suggested.

Wolf-dog hybrids already have conflicting instincts, and they need a strong, determined, mentally stable, patient, NON-agressive, NON-violent and steady person to raise them.







Posted Image


#37    Abramelin

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:35 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 31 May 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Just for extra, lol:

I think it was 78' or 79' of the past century when I was on a holiday in southern France. At some moment I wanted to buy a souvenir, entered a small shop and wandered around to find something nice.

Then my eyes fell on this wallet which had - I thought - the image of a dog on it:

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Years later I found out it this wasn't just some dog, but that it was the "Beast of Gévaudan". The village I had visited (forgot the name) was a stone's throw away from Gévaudan.

Someone was interested in my wallet: I finally found the name of the village where I bought it, 35 years ago: Saint Flour.

It's very close to (in fact just outside and north of) the department of Gévaudan, or Lozère as it is called nowadays.

Looks like a place many tourists will visit before they set out to the Lozère department on their quest for the Beast of Gévaudan.

+++

EDIT:

Another thing: it wasn't 78 or 79 of the past century I was there, it was August 1977... two months after my father had died of cancer. The holiday had been planned long before, and we (my brother, his wife and I) went anyway because we really needed a break from all the stress and sorrow.

EDIT:

It just now dawned on me.... I have mentioned my father in this thread and the 'doggy' he once got when he was a kid. And two months after he died i bought some stupid souvenir that had a depiction of a vicious wolf-dog hybrid.



.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 October 2012 - 08:55 PM.


#38    La Bete Feroce

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 12:36 AM

That third picture is of Antoine De Beauterne's kill, which was most definitely a wolf, albeit a large and impressive one. Whether or not it was involved in any of the attacks whatsoever is a point of contention; he killed it in a neighboring area a ways off from Gevaudan, once the Chastel family had been imprisoned and the killings had stopped. He probably figured the real Beast had died of natural causes or some ****, and so therefore bagged the biggest ****in' wolf he could find and ran back to Paris with it to collect the bounty. And it worked. Well, wrong wolf, dip****. The Chastels got out, and the killings resumed with full force all over again, but as far as France was concerned the Beast was dead and the media lost interest on reporting new attacks.

I'll post a few pictures that do highlight hyena characteristics:
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What it says: “The furious beast that is supposed to be a hyena.” The text tells of two peasants who were made into national heroes for fighting the beast—a twelve-year-old boy who led an attack on the creature on January 12, 1765, and a mother who managed to wrest her six-year-old son, still living, away from the beast on March 12, 1765. (The child later died of his injuries.)

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Quote

The creature's death caused understandable jubilation in the afflicted peasant communities. The hunters who had run it down paraded its putrefying remains through the region for the next two weeks before delivering it to the royal court in Versailles. By this time it stank so badly that the king ordered it to be disposed of immediately. Buried in an unknown location, the remains have never been recovered, sparking more than two centuries of speculation about the creature's identity.

In 1960, after studying a notary report prepared by two surgeons who had examined the carcass in the 1700s, one authority determined that the creature's teeth were purely wolflike. But during the summer of 1997, discussion of the fur of the Beast of Gevaudan resurfaced. Franz Jullien, a taxidermist at the National Museum of Natural History in Paris, discovered that a stuffed specimen similar to the Beast of Gevaudan that had been shot by Jean Chastel had been kept in the collections of the museum from 1766 to 1819. It had been definitely identified, a fact that all researchers had overlooked. It was a striped hyena (Hyaena hyaena).

Novelist Henri Pourrat and naturalist Gerard Menatory had already proposed the hyena hypothesis, based on historical accounts, since Ancaine Chastel (Jean Chastel's son) reportedly possessed such an animal in his menagerie, a hypothesis now supported by a zoologist's identification. While Jullien's rediscovery must be congratulated, questions remain about the role of the Chastels as creators of a false story involving an escaped hyena in order to cover the rumors of one of the Chastels being a serial killer.

What do I think? I like the wolf-dog theory. I think it fits. I think it is plausible with or without human culpability. But since when can wolf-dogs rend people limb from limb and decapitate them? Since when do wolf-dogs make laughing noises? Since when do wolf-dogs have black stripes on their backs, stripes and spots? Why were wolf-hounds bred and trained to kill wolves afraid to tangle with the Beast, and ended up battered and beaten on the few times that they did? The Wolf-Dog theory has holes in it. That's why this **** is so perplexing to this day.


#39    Ninhursag

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:29 AM

There was a very nice documentary on this a while ago on NatGeo .. IMO it was the Chupacabra ;)

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#40    La Bete Feroce

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:27 PM

It was a History channel documentary, and although I seriously loathe their monster quest approach to it, they did arrive at the hyena conclusion based on the damage output of the Beast, the trainability and intelligence of hyenas, and the archive of a hyena being logged into the Natural Museum of History in Paris in 1766 as the Beast of Gevaudan.

Edited by La Bete Feroce, 25 October 2012 - 01:28 PM.


#41    woopypooky

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 01:42 PM

it wasnt a dog, it wasnt a wolf, it wasnt a hyena. it was a beast!!!

it was a beast that comes straight from hell. its a helldog!

okay, jokes aside,
i remember there was a story from thailand/china/japanese, i forgot, but there is a hog thats as big as a rhino and been killing villagers and even been worshipped as sacred.

so dont underestimate a wolf, beast of gevaudan can be an overgrown wolf.


#42    Rafterman

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:02 PM

View Postwoopypooky, on 25 October 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

it wasnt a dog, it wasnt a wolf, it wasnt a hyena. it was a beast!!!

it was a beast that comes straight from hell. its a helldog!

okay, jokes aside,
i remember there was a story from thailand/china/japanese, i forgot, but there is a hog thats as big as a rhino and been killing villagers and even been worshipped as sacred.

so dont underestimate a wolf, beast of gevaudan can be an overgrown wolf.

Or it could have just simply been a wolf.

Folks forget that wolf predation against humans in Europe was a fairly common occurrence back in those days.

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#43    La Bete Feroce

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:15 PM

I've presented an enormity of evidence conclusively obliterating the idea that the Beast was an ordinary wolf. It wasn't a wolf and that's a fact. Many of the confirmed "wolf" man-eaters in Europe had features suggesting wolf-dog hybridization, identified after they were killed. The Wolves of Périgord and the Wolf of Sarlat, which acted concurrent to the Beast of Gevaudan's depredations in nearby regions, were wolf-dog hybrids. Natural, 100% wolves tend to shy away from humans. It's the hybrids that stir the pot. Yes, wolf predation and aggression on humans was more intensified in earlier centures, but usually this coincided with times of war, when the wolves would scavenge the battlefields to devour the dead, in turn giving them a taste for human flesh. There was no such time of warfare prior to the events in Gevaudan in the 1770s. The Marin report, that is, the actual autopsy of the Beast, POSITIVELY identified that it was /not/ an ordinary wolf. I will quote it:

Quote

"... we did represent this animal that we appeared to be a wolf." But extraordinary and quite different by its figure and proportions of the wolves that are seen in this country. It is what we have certified more than three hundred connaisseuses people we have actually pointed that this animal has resemblance to Wolf by the tail and behind his head as described by the following proportions, is monstrous! His eyes have a membrane singular which starts from the lower part of the orbit from to le gre de animal cover the globe of the eye. His neck is covered with a very thick hair a reddish grey crossed a few black bands; there on the chest a large white mark shaped heart, its paws have four toes armed with large nails (1) which extend much more those of ordinary wolves, they have as well as the legs, that its very large, especially those front, the color of those of the deer, it we published a remarkable observation because in the opinion of these same hunterspeople connaisseuses and all hunters it has never seen the Wolves of the same colors. It still appeared about to observe that his side do not resemble those of the Wolf which gave this animal freedom to turn easily, rather than the sides of the wolves being obliquely asked do not allow them this facility.

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"The upper jaw is lined with six incisors teeth." The sixth being longer than the others: two large straps or hooks away from the incisors and the height of one inch four lines with a diameter of six lines: three molars with a pretty small and two large, a fourth larger than the others and that molar almost joined the fifth and penultimate that is divided into two parts which one extends out perpendicular and the other lengthens horizontally in the Interior of the Palace, and finally a molar sixth. The lower jaw is lined with twenty-two teeth, namely six incisors, and on each side a strap similar to the superior, seven molars, the first very small and far away from the thong, the following three are larger and similar to the 2 ° and 3 ° molar upper, the fifth big and long is divided into three parts, of which the anterior is shorter", the sixth pretty large has two eminences anterior and lateral, the seventh is very small (1) and almost equal."(....) "

Quote

-"Mr of the M ** (+) fit review." He observed that the head was monstrous, a shape square, much wider and longer than that of ordinary wolves, the snout is a little obtuse, straight and wide ears at their base, black eyes and covered with a membrane projecting very singular.
It was an extension of the lower muscles of the eye. These membranes were used to cover him at will 2 orbits, is falling and slipping under the eyelids.
Opening of the hangover was very large, incisive teeth similar to those of a dog, the tight, uneven, teeth pass very wide and short, topped with a hair rough, extremely long and bushy, with black transverse band down to shoulders, the train from behind quite a wolf-like, except the huge size, the legs of front shorter than those from behindmore levrettées than those of a regular Wolf, covered, as well as the front of the head of a fawn, ras and smooth hair, specifically the color of those of a deer, the hair of the body strong thick and long, a mottled grayish color of black.
"The animal was on the chest a large white spot in the perfect shape of a heart." (...)
"We took the resolution of the décharner to keep his skeleton". (...)
What we noticed with astonishment, is the head. After raising the common integument, we saw a bone Ridge that was beginning to the occipital bone. She had about 15 lines of height and ended marginally on the front end, always decreasing. We removed a mass of muscular flesh weighing more than 6 pounds which covered the parietals.
These muscles were completing their lower jaw and eye sockets."When all of these fleshy parts were removed, this head, so monstrous in the natural state, offered only a bone box a little bigger than the fist." (...)

of Langeac, this July 6, 1767

The autopsy is describing the result of wolf-dog hybridization. It had canine dentition. The lower body resembled a wolf, the front resembled a dog. Its rib cage was different than a wolf's. Its coloring was different than a wolf's. It had a squarish, more box-like head resembling a dog but an elongated snout, reminiscent of a greyhound or, in my opinion, a Charnaigre. A Charnaigre was a European hunting dog around during the time of these events. They were incredibly fast, agile, and could leap astounding distances.They pretty much disappeared around the 19th century. Here is a picture:
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And here is La Bete du Gevaudan, the ferocious Beast.
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See the resemblance?

The Beast was NOT a wolf. Fact. Autopsy proves that. Now which do you trust, the Marin Report suggesting a wolf-dog, or the Natural Museum of History in Paris which has a log of receiving the body of the Beast of Gevaudan in 1766, and that they identified it as a Striped Hyena? That's up to you.

It was either a.) a wolf-dog hybrid
or b.) a striped hyena.

Simple as that.


#44    tapirmusic

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:53 PM

I'm not suggesting that it was w werewolf, but has anyone ever taken the dates of the attacks and compared it to the lunar cycles at that time to see if the attacks fell on or near Full Moons?


#45    Daniyal32

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 04:00 AM

I have never heard about it





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