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you can obe? prove it


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#16    _Only

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:30 AM

View PostSean93, on 18 February 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Wasn't aiming my post at you. I know Lucid dreaming is real, it happens to me a lot because, probably to do with the Sleep Paralysis and insomnia. It's cool but I don't get these people who think it's some ethereal ability...it's a dream ffs.

It's a matter of opinion and belief on your entire view of life and your world. It seems like you're under the view that this physical world is the only real thing, and all else perceived is created by our physical pink slimy thing. Others think differently. You have to at least be able to understand their differing opinion a little bit, right? I can understand yours, but 'it's a dream ffs' is dismissive and not really saying much of anything. What is a dream? To be able to answer that, you'd have to understand the mind, which we don't yet. Until then, all we have are beliefs, hypotheses, and/or opinions.

As to the OP's challenge, as I think it's already been gone over here, altered states are a confirmed phenomena of the mind and there is no need to prove that they exist to you. What you think they are is up to you, but they are there, I can assure you.

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Oh and if they don't want to prove it they are obviously lying to

Or they just don't care enough to jump through even the smallest of hoops for you, the random abrasive challenger to something they may or may not care if you even believe exists or not. That, or they're just filthy liars.

I didn't want that to come out as abrasive as it did, but I'm just going to put it out there that these are the type of responses you may get if that's the type of energy you're putting into the pot here, OP. In the words of Conan O'Brien, "keep cool, mah babiiies".

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#17    Sean93

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:56 AM

View Post_Only, on 18 February 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

It's a matter of opinion and belief on your entire view of life and your world. It seems like you're under the view that this physical world is the only real thing, and all else perceived is created by our physical pink slimy thing. Others think differently. You have to at least be able to understand their differing opinion a little bit, right? I can understand yours, but 'it's a dream ffs' is dismissive and not really saying much of anything. What is a dream? To be able to answer that, you'd have to understand the mind, which we don't yet. Until then, all we have are beliefs, hypotheses, and/or opinions.

As to the OP's challenge, as I think it's already been gone over here, altered states are a confirmed phenomena of the mind and there is no need to prove that they exist to you. What you think they are is up to you, but they are there, I can assure you.



Or they just don't care enough to jump through even the smallest of hoops for you, the random abrasive challenger to something they may or may not care if you even believe exists or not. That, or they're just filthy liars.

I didn't want that to come out as abrasive as it did, but I'm just going to put it out there that these are the type of responses you may get if that's the type of energy you're putting into the pot here, OP. In the words of Conan O'Brien, "keep cool, mah babiiies".

I just want the truth, that's all. Is it too much to ask the truth of those who claim to know it?

I've asked before a few times and have never gotten proof. Makes me think they're just lying.

Edited by Sean93, 18 February 2013 - 03:59 AM.

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#18    _Only

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 04:43 AM

View PostSean93, on 18 February 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:

I just want the truth, that's all. Is it too much to ask the truth of those who claim to know it?

Yes, because you should know by now that no one knows the truth about all of this. Anyone who claims otherwise has to be taken with a grain of salt, but not entirely discounted because of their overly sure attitude and beliefs.

As far as out of body experiences go, I'm not even fit to answer because I haven't had one myself fully. But what I have had happen is 'on the way" I think. I've been meditating and felt my head lift up and forward, as if it just decided to move up on its own. The instant I put together that it had moved up, though, it fell back down and I realized it actually went into my actual head, which was still lying on the bed. Now how did I realize this? I don't know; it was the feeling, and sensation of the moment that I just can't explain, but it made me know.

The other time was also meditating, around a few days from the other experience. I looked to the right while meditating, to notice a blue-white-ish blurry thing. Upon looking, I realized it was a forearm/hand coming out of my actual arm, lifted up with the hand pointing its finger up and thumb out to the side, almost like a spiderman web sling position. It looked so awkward the way it was bent up and made me uncomfortable to watch. I just turned my head back and went back to doing my thing.

Now these two events really happened to me. But how am I supposed to prove that they did, when I don't even know exactly what happened, how, or why? Now you start to see people's dilemma when being 'challenged' to prove that these type of experiences happened to them. How do you suggest they go about giving you proof, if they felt the need to?

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#19    Sean93

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:01 AM

View Post_Only, on 18 February 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Yes, because you should know by now that no one knows the truth about all of this. Anyone who claims otherwise has to be taken with a grain of salt, but not entirely discounted because of their overly sure attitude and beliefs.

As far as out of body experiences go, I'm not even fit to answer because I haven't had one myself fully. But what I have had happen is 'on the way" I think. I've been meditating and felt my head lift up and forward, as if it just decided to move up on its own. The instant I put together that it had moved up, though, it fell back down and I realized it actually went into my actual head, which was still lying on the bed. Now how did I realize this? I don't know; it was the feeling, and sensation of the moment that I just can't explain, but it made me know.

The other time was also meditating, around a few days from the other experience. I looked to the right while meditating, to notice a blue-white-ish blurry thing. Upon looking, I realized it was a forearm/hand coming out of my actual arm, lifted up with the hand pointing its finger up and thumb out to the side, almost like a spiderman web sling position. It looked so awkward the way it was bent up and made me uncomfortable to watch. I just turned my head back and went back to doing my thing.

Now these two events really happened to me. But how am I supposed to prove that they did, when I don't even know exactly what happened, how, or why? Now you start to see people's dilemma when being 'challenged' to prove that these type of experiences happened to them. How do you suggest they go about giving you proof, if they felt the need to?

As far as arms coming out of other arms go, I don't know. As for OBE's and that, what the poster said above: Experimentation. See if the OBE-er can go to a place or read a number while asleep. That's the kind of experiments that should be done to test the validity of these claims. I'm not interested in the simple stuff, just the major: people dreaming and predicting disasters, talking to god, NDE's etc.

I'm not the kind of person to believe something without sufficient evidence of it, especially when it concerns such massive matters as the supernatural. I have to question why some people have these extra-sensory abilities, why they conflict in description and above all, whether they actually work. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Psychics, Seer's and Astral Travelers and all those other kinds of people don't have to prove anything to anyone but they should be prepared to be scrutinized if they make public their personal spiritual/metaphysical journeys because after all, people are going to want to know if it's real. All of our greatest discoveries have had to stand the weight of skepticism and some of them failed while others succeeded, no claim goes forward without scrutiny,  if people can prove their claims in some way or form then that's a good thing as it means they'll be taken seriously and the metaphysical will be taken seriously also but until that is done, they are simply just 'stories'.

I'd love to be proven wrong.

Edited by Sean93, 18 February 2013 - 05:03 AM.

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#20    _Only

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:32 AM

View PostSean93, on 18 February 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

See if the OBE-er can go to a place or read a number while asleep.

You'll have to be more clear of your proposed tests, and what it's supposed to be proving.

But if you are getting at what I think you are, and it seems the OP was trying to, too: you must be alluding to how people have said that they wanted to go somewhere while out of their body. So they picked, say, the Sphinx. All of a sudden, they're there.

Now do you think they actually took a trip to the Sphinx in Egypt, albeit an alternate dimension of Egypt, and can give a reading of a piece of paper that has been placed there in our physical world by you? Or do you think they visited a Sphinx in the world of their mind; something they created on the spot? Which is more likely? Now it starts to seem silly trying to tell someone to go to a place in their altered state, and prove something to you by viewing something there, as it is here on Earth. It seems a misunderstanding on what is going on.

You'll have to think of a more fitting way to hold your test. Or who knows, maybe it will work. But to pick some random place that the person their self has never even experienced before doesn't make sense. Are they supposed to be also psychi now too, and be able to figure otu how to reach places where they have no general idea on how to get there, or even where 'there' is at all? It just doesn't make sense.

The other thing is, what exactly are you trying to get them to prove? You and I know altered states exist. So what about them exactly? That might help in setting up your tests, as you can know what exactly you're trying to test. Because what you're trying to test may be based on a misunderstanding of a concept, like above.

As far as head and body parts going out of the body, that's what it has to do with going 'out of body'. Seemingly the entrance to completely leaving the body would be partially separating from the body, no?

Edited by _Only, 18 February 2013 - 05:34 AM.

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#21    Vaise

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:57 AM

Still aint seen any definite proof


#22    Glorfindel

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:07 PM

View Post_Only, on 18 February 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

You'll have to be more clear of your proposed tests, and what it's supposed to be proving.

But if you are getting at what I think you are, and it seems the OP was trying to, too: you must be alluding to how people have said that they wanted to go somewhere while out of their body. So they picked, say, the Sphinx. All of a sudden, they're there.

Now do you think they actually took a trip to the Sphinx in Egypt, albeit an alternate dimension of Egypt, and can give a reading of a piece of paper that has been placed there in our physical world by you? Or do you think they visited a Sphinx in the world of their mind; something they created on the spot? Which is more likely? Now it starts to seem silly trying to tell someone to go to a place in their altered state, and prove something to you by viewing something there, as it is here on Earth. It seems a misunderstanding on what is going on.

You'll have to think of a more fitting way to hold your test. Or who knows, maybe it will work. But to pick some random place that the person their self has never even experienced before doesn't make sense. Are they supposed to be also psychi now too, and be able to figure otu how to reach places where they have no general idea on how to get there, or even where 'there' is at all? It just doesn't make sense.

The other thing is, what exactly are you trying to get them to prove? You and I know altered states exist. So what about them exactly? That might help in setting up your tests, as you can know what exactly you're trying to test. Because what you're trying to test may be based on a misunderstanding of a concept, like above.

As far as head and body parts going out of the body, that's what it has to do with going 'out of body'. Seemingly the entrance to completely leaving the body would be partially separating from the body, no?

This is exactly right, say you placed something on top of the sphinx (just as example) and wanted an "astral projector" to tell you whats there, youre not gonna get an answer. Because the Egypt the projector is experiencing is a compilation of say, everything theyve read, seen or heard about Egypt, their mind comes up with a composite of how they view Egypt. They are not actually in the real physical Egypt. So as a practitioner to a skeptic, I'm telling you there is no proof nor am I claiming there is.

This might be a bad example, but say you have two people. One has a psychoactive substance, its illegal and the effects are well known. He takes it and starts hallucinating, but the other person who has never took a psychoactive substance flat out dosen't believe anything is happening to the user. Is that not ridiculous? The only way the person experiencing a "high" can prove the effects, is for the other person to take the substance. Not advocating drug use here, just using it as example of an altered state of counciousness. You're not honestly gonna try tell me every drug user in the world is lying about experiecing a different mental state are you? Just because you haven't experienced it yourself? Peoples lives are ruined and become addicted but there is no altered states of counciousness involved? They're all just faking it?

And like _Only said, you are generalizing new age practices as having something to do with "OBE's", it has nothing to do with being psychic, making predictions, etc., totally different things. Just because alot of "new agers" believe in a such things, dosen't mean you can generalize things. Like I implyed before, I'm a man of science who holds no religious beliefs, I do practice things which I can directly experience for myself though, like "out of body travel" and other meditative states. Once again, it comes back to the OP's lack of reading about a topic he is supposed to be curious about. Nothing worth doing comes easy and there's nothing stopping you from training and experiencing this for yourself. If you were actually the curious minded skeptic you're trying to be, thats the route you would take. As opposed to calling everyone liars simply because you do not posess either the time, patience or will power to achieve it.

Edited by Glorfindel, 18 February 2013 - 07:57 PM.


#23    FlyingAngel

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:09 AM

Experience it, believe it. Anyone experienced OBE can tell it's a whole new level of "dreaming". They are not faking it, they are not lying about it, the experience is true. As for whether the astral plane really exists or not, let science discover it.


#24    SpiritTraveler

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:10 AM

View PostGlorfindel, on 18 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

What I said was there is no difference between "astral travel" and "lucid dreaming". A lucid dream is just like a regular dream, except you are councious and aware of being in a dream. Like any skill the more you practice the longer you can stay councious in the dream state and the more control you can gain over your environment. At no point did I state anything about the "other side", I just told you what its like, like a dream only you're aware and councious and you can create or explore any environment your mind, whether councious or subconscous can come up with. There is nothing paranormal about it, unless you're suggesting everyone who has had a regular dream is lying.

My astral travels are not like lucid dreaming at all. I do both and there is no comparison.  During astral travel my spirit leaves my body and travels to many places. I visit other dimensions and planets and sometimes, but not often, communicate with people there.  

My travels are meant to be a learning experience (although some are quite fun). I rarely travel with spirits of people I know here on Earth, but sometimes my sister is with me. The spirits I travel with are sometimes guides and sometimes other travellers who may or may not be from this dimension, but are 'astral travel' friends.

I don't go on adventures but I am shown things. How others live. Their architecture. Their ways. Their machines. Their history. Their senses and feelings. Sometimes glimpses of the future. My past lives.

One of my favourite things to do is to soar. Soar over towns, cities, forests, great bodies of water, and among the stars in space.

That is what I do when I astral travel (without the details as it would be too much typing).

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#25    SpiritTraveler

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:43 AM

No you can't spy on people; the thought of it never comes to mind.  Yes you do see other travellers.
And the reason we don't respond to "prove it" is because we can't prove it. Period.
It sounds like a great idea when on this plane but once you astral project it's the last thing on the list. Our spirit guide leads us in other directions. We don't even think of trying to prove it. It is just too trivial in the astral world.

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#26    Glorfindel

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostSpiritTraveler, on 22 February 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

My astral travels are not like lucid dreaming at all. I do both and there is no comparison.  During astral travel my spirit leaves my body and travels to many places. I visit other dimensions and planets and sometimes, but not often, communicate with people there.  

My travels are meant to be a learning experience (although some are quite fun). I rarely travel with spirits of people I know here on Earth, but sometimes my sister is with me. The spirits I travel with are sometimes guides and sometimes other travellers who may or may not be from this dimension, but are 'astral travel' friends.

I don't go on adventures but I am shown things. How others live. Their architecture. Their ways. Their machines. Their history. Their senses and feelings. Sometimes glimpses of the future. My past lives.

One of my favourite things to do is to soar. Soar over towns, cities, forests, great bodies of water, and among the stars in space.

That is what I do when I astral travel (without the details as it would be too much typing).
I'm not gonna comment on your personal beliefs on the matter, but the only difference between "astral travel" and "lucid dreaming" is the method used to get there. In fact with "phasing" methods you would see that councious exit of the body is rather unneccesary after years of practicing. 100% councious in a dream, or 100% councious after leaving the body is very much the same state of counciousness. Im not gonna comment on the supernatural view you have of it, because I really don't know for sure (and neither do you), but I will say that your description of what can be experienced is accurate. Another thing I noticed while in the OBE state, is the feeling of physical sensations or emotional ones, is very intense and feels like your directly experiencing the "essence" of happiness for example, unhindered by the physical bodies/brain's interpretation of it. Kinda hard to describe but you can for sure experience tactile sensations you otherwise couldn't during normal waking counciousness.

Edited by Glorfindel, 22 February 2013 - 06:40 PM.


#27    Himawari69

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:58 PM

Well I have successfully had an obe after many attempts but the farthest I've gone is my floor, I can't seem to controller myself as I can't really walk, it feels like your underwater, and most of the time I had an overwhelming fear because I actually feel 2 pairs of hands pull me out,I'm assuming its a male because the hands feel large, and it growled once when I thrust my hand forward to touch it. I don't care if you don't believe me, there is no way to prove to you it can be done, the only way to reach the truth is to stop being so negative and skepticle, and try it yourself, meditate, sleep on your back with your arms at your sides and relax, try to clear your thoughts, and if it helps listen to beats that can alter your alpha waves, these can be downloaded on the Internet, my first time was really scared and I almost cried, but with practice it can be better


#28    Glorfindel

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 10:01 PM

View PostHimawari69, on 22 February 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

Well I have successfully had an obe after many attempts but the farthest I've gone is my floor, I can't seem to controller myself as I can't really walk, it feels like your underwater, and most of the time I had an overwhelming fear because I actually feel 2 pairs of hands pull me out,I'm assuming its a male because the hands feel large, and it growled once when I thrust my hand forward to touch it. I don't care if you don't believe me, there is no way to prove to you it can be done, the only way to reach the truth is to stop being so negative and skepticle, and try it yourself, meditate, sleep on your back with your arms at your sides and relax, try to clear your thoughts, and if it helps listen to beats that can alter your alpha waves, these can be downloaded on the Internet, my first time was really scared and I almost cried, but with practice it can be better

Like I said before, your subcouncious influences everything, if youre expecting fear, then your subcouncious is going to give you a reason to be scared, hence the creation of the hands and growling. You have the power to make anything you don't like disappear instantly while in the OBE state (at least with practice you can). As far as moving in the planes, what you are experiencing is normal. The first time I counciously exited the body, I stood in my back yard and tryed flying. I was jumping and falling back down and it was like moving through water or syrup as you described. The secret is to move with your mind, I simply thought about flying and kept the intent in my mind and, Voila! Started floating up. Even today, sometimes if I'm flying I'll briefly lose concentration and start plummeting towards the Earth. Trying to move like youre in physical reality is what causes the feeling that you're moving through something thick and makes it much more difficult. Like anything, practice makes perfect so hopefully you can take this advice and keep trying! You've already gotten past the hardest part if you've made the exit before.

Edited by Glorfindel, 22 February 2013 - 10:05 PM.


#29    Esoteric Toad

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:08 PM

Sean93 I personally do not believe OBE or Astral travel are anything at all. It could all be dreaming, period. There is no way to put OBE, Astral Travel nor dreaming into a typeset, they could all be the same and no one is going to prove it one way or another. As to why or how anyone can say that OBE is better than a dream or they astral travel to this place or that I believe it is just something that people do, talk about what sets themselves apart from others. So lying might seem a bit harsh. For those that claim they can go zipping around in the real world yet would refuse to provide any irrefutable evidence, well they are dreaming too. If it were true it would be the easiest of all supernatural abilities to prove. People like to feel special, let them.

Before anyone chops my head off remember, it is the believer that gains the benefit not the skeptic. I do not believe that these 'abilities' are any different than dreaming. How can a person describe a dream (ordinary) in a way that fully relates everything sensed in it. If it is done by someone who is very good at describing things in colorful and complex ways ANY dream could sound like a life changing event. Enjoy your dreams no matter where they come from. I have had some mighty spiffy dreams but I could not in a million years describe them in a way that would do them justice, if I could they would likely fit any decription of an OBE, Astral projection or any number of altered states but in the end it was a dream. Nothing wrong with that though.

Edited by Esoteric Toad, 22 February 2013 - 11:10 PM.


#30    Glorfindel

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 11:36 PM

View PostEsoteric Toad, on 22 February 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Sean93 I personally do not believe OBE or Astral travel are anything at all. It could all be dreaming, period. There is no way to put OBE, Astral Travel nor dreaming into a typeset, they could all be the same and no one is going to prove it one way or another. As to why or how anyone can say that OBE is better than a dream or they astral travel to this place or that I believe it is just something that people do, talk about what sets themselves apart from others. So lying might seem a bit harsh.
In a normal dream, you are more or less uncouncious, in a lucid dream you are every bit as councious as you are in waking reality, and are aware you are dreaming and are able to manipulate the environment. I believe they do both take place in the same part of the mind (whatever that is), but a lucid dream/astral projection/OBE is very much different then your average dream, there wouldn't be methods to do it you can practice, there wouldn't be talk of "sleep paralysis" etc etc if it was just a normal dream being blown out of proportion.

View PostEsoteric Toad, on 22 February 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

For those that claim they can go zipping around in the real world yet would refuse to provide any irrefutable evidence, well they are dreaming too. If it were true it would be the easiest of all supernatural abilities to prove. People like to feel special, let them.
Actually read the thread please, the only people who have claimed that might be possible have been the skeptics ironically (or at least they implyed it by asking us to engage in this experiment).

View PostEsoteric Toad, on 22 February 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

Before anyone chops my head off remember, it is the believer that gains the benefit not the skeptic. I do not believe that these 'abilities' are any different than dreaming. How can a person describe a dream (ordinary) in a way that fully relates everything sensed in it. If it is done by someone who is very good at describing things in colorful and complex ways ANY dream could sound like a life changing event. Enjoy your dreams no matter where they come from. I have had some mighty spiffy dreams but I could not in a million years describe them in a way that would do them justice, if I could they would likely fit any decription of an OBE, Astral projection or any number of altered states but in the end it was a dream. Nothing wrong with that though.
You have not experienced anything that could be remotely considered an "OBE" unless you were completely councious and aware that you were dreaming. But hey, apprently altered states don't exist unless you've experienced them right? There's a difference between being a skeptic and a pseudo-skeptic, and I don't think many people here understand that difference. A real skeptic would actually read about the subject material, and realize how pointless continually asking for evidence of a subjective mind state is. Meanwhile the internet is full of methods and techniques to learn this, and anyone can indeed learn it. Sorry if that "chopped your head off", but its getting redundant having to explain very basic, non-paranormal based explanations to this real experience, has anyone even read my posts?





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