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advanced aliens or ancient humans?


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#31    nopeda

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:15 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 09 March 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Nopeda...I think perhaps you should spend a bit more time clarifying your point.  You seem to be going back and forth here, and I honestly can't tell what it is you are proposing.

"The masonry example was not a good one because it's too simple
. . .
I personally can't think of one that even comes close
. . .
why wouldn't they expect future humans to believe and learn more about them, and start to share the universe with them...?"

By masonry I thought you were referring to all masonry in general, the majority of which is much easier to understand how it was done than the other examples which so far we have no idea how they were done. I'm aware that there are those types scattered around the world, and the fact that it appears either the builders or people who made use of them made referrence to beings from other worlds on and/or near them seems very significant to me. The fact that there are a number of examples of constructions we can't explain today scattered out around the planet means people at some point either lost the ability to move huge rocks around somehow, and if so how and why? Or they all happened to unlearn somehow? They just all all of a sudden forgot? And then no one else was ever able to figure it out again exept one guy? If all of that was somehow the actual situation, wouldn't it be even weirder than for advanced beings to have visited this planet as well as all the other ones they've been to?

The ancient people told us that other beings came around  :alien:  and it appears that more advanced beings did help those ancient people, so I can't help but consider that the ancient people were not lying. Also, I still believe the ancient peope would expect future people (us) to know more about the advanced beings by this time, not less. So they would not be as? likely to lie on their monuments and sacred structures as they might be?? if they thought they would be able to fool people if they did...??? It just doesn't make sense that they would even try  :no:  or that the thought would even enter their minds.


#32    nopeda

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:26 PM

View Postdekker87, on 09 March 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Considering humans or dinosaurs as the only ever sentient beings on earth seems a classic example of human arrogance.
I consider worms and bugs to be sentient, and feel that most if not all microscopic animals are too. Higher animals too of course. I'm also aware that all sentient creatures are not able to move rocks that weigh tons, and hundreds of tons, etc. I don't even believe any dinosaurs did it, and I don't believe there were civilizations of intelligent beings other than humans who built any structures that exist today, and doubt that any such civilizations of other intelligent beings ever existed on this planet unless they came from someplace other than Earth.


#33    nopeda

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:35 PM

View PostSensible Logic, on 10 March 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

When you consider how slim the chance that aliens have ever reached our planet and combine that with drawings and carvings from several parts of the world that show men pulling stone and statue using sleds and ropes you can be sure that men built the various stone structures around the world not aliens.
The evidence is that humans and aliens both built things, even if aliens don't exist anywhere in the universe. There is no reason to consider the possibility that aliens have reached our planet to be slim. No reason at all, since we have no way of getting any clue as to whether it is or not. People left us messages in stone that advanced beings have been here, and stone structures strongly suggest they have been here...frequently in part by containing messages in stone that they have been if I'm not mistaken.


#34    nopeda

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:41 PM

View PostMyles, on 12 March 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

You think it is more likely that aliens who are not proven to exist came all the way across the universe and stacked some rocks rather than humans?
At this point I do. Two weeks ago I felt completely opposite, but that's because at the time I didn't know how many examples of possible alien constructions there are, and also because I was naively of the strong opinion that humans would be able to detect their vehicles. Now I know about lots of evidence that they have been here, and I've lost all confidence that humans would be able to detect them if they were still coming around from time to time today.


#35    nopeda

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:48 PM

View Postscowl, on 12 March 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

A lot of this comes from the snotty bias we modern people against "primitive" people who lived thousands of years ago. They didn't have the tools or technology we have so we assume they were a bunch of helpless dummies. Those people were in fact the same clever and resourceful humans we are and were perfectly capable of solving problems on a massive scale in ways that we would never have thought of.
Then why did everybody 'forget' how  :unsure2:  or whatever is making it so no one can do it again in the same way(s) now?


#36    Myles

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 07:56 PM

View Postnopeda, on 12 March 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

At this point I do. Two weeks ago I felt completely opposite, but that's because at the time I didn't know how many examples of possible alien constructions there are, and also because I was naively of the strong opinion that humans would be able to detect their vehicles. Now I know about lots of evidence that they have been here, and I've lost all confidence that humans would be able to detect them if they were still coming around from time to time today.

Oh please don't tell me that Ancient Aliens has played a factor in this?


#37    Sensible Logic

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 08:55 PM

View Postnopeda, on 12 March 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

The evidence is that humans and aliens both built things, even if aliens don't exist anywhere in the universe. There is no reason to consider the possibility that aliens have reached our planet to be slim. No reason at all, since we have no way of getting any clue as to whether it is or not. People left us messages in stone that advanced beings have been here, and stone structures strongly suggest they have been here...frequently in part by containing messages in stone that they have been if I'm not mistaken.
Aliens that don't exist in the universe could have built nothing.  There is no evidence that aliens have built anything on Earth or even that they have visited Earth.

There is every reason to consider alien visitation to Earth a slim possibility.

Take any world populated by aliens.  All of the following must be true for them to actually have visited or be visiting the Earth.

They must advance technologically.
Their technology must include all the components necessary for space travel.
They must develop all those components and actually begin travel in space.
They must successfully research what is necessary to explore outside their solar system.
They must develop that research into working devices.
They must decide to actually explore outside their solar system.
They must choose our solar system in our galaxy to explore.
They must successfully reach our system.
They must, if rules allow, actually interact with mankind including the building of objects here on Earth.

There are 300 billion stars in our galaxy alone and if only one percent of those stars have planets that could hold life that still leaves 3 billion stars from which to choose.  so the chance of aliens picking our solar system is 1 in 3 billion.  As a comparison, the chance to win the powerball lottery big prize is about 1 in 175 million.  That's just within our galaxy.  If the aliens come from outside our galaxy, with hundreds of billions of galaxies to choose from, the odds become enormous against the possibility.

As you can see the chances are slim.

The sheer odds of a civilization advancing, developing space travel, deciding to search our little corner of the galaxy, arriving at just the right time and actually helping us is so huge, you would have a greater chance of winning several lotteries in a single year. - SensibleLogic

#38    aquatus1

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 11:25 PM

View Postnopeda, on 12 March 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

By masonry I thought you were referring to all masonry in general, the majority of which is much easier to understand how it was done than the other examples which so far we have no idea how they were done.

That you have no idea how they were done.

Quote

I'm aware that there are those types scattered around the world, and the fact that it appears either the builders or people who made use of them made referrence to beings from other worlds on and/or near them seems very significant to me.


That is because you have never bothered to look for references to people from other worlds in cultures without massive projects.  If you had, you would know how ubiquitous such stories are.

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The fact that there are a number of examples of constructions we can't explain today...

That you can't explain.

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...scattered out around the planet means people at some point either lost the ability to move huge rocks around somehow, and if so how and why? Or they all happened to unlearn somehow? They just all all of a sudden forgot?


Or, we can still figure it out.  Not that hard.  Heck, the Great pyramid alone has about a dozen different theories being proposed every month for how they did it.

The confusion here is that you are mistaking the absolutely accurate claim of "We aren't sure what specific technique out of dozens they used for this specific project" with the more general, less accurate, "We don't know how they did it."

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And then no one else was ever able to figure it out again exept one guy?


Lot's of people figured it out.  You see this stuff all over the world, all throughout time.  People figure it out over and over again.  It is physically difficult, not intellectually difficult.

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If all of that was somehow the actual situation, wouldn't it be even weirder than for advanced beings to have visited this planet as well as all the other ones they've been to?

Even if that was the actual situation, which it isn't, it still wouldn't be more probable than aliens doing it.  Over and over.  All over the world.  Throughout human history.

If aliens built the Great Pyramids, then I have lost a great deal of respect for their technological prowess.

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The ancient people told us that other beings came around  Posted Image
  

Yes, they often referred to them as faeries, gods, and spirits.  Just because you call them "aliens" doesn't make them any more well-supported.

Quote

...and it appears that more advanced beings did help those ancient people, so I can't help but consider that the ancient people were not lying.


No, it most definitely does not appear that they were helped by more advanced beings.  Heck, a modern day engineering student turning in plans for the Great Pyramid would be failed by his teacher for the lack of precision.  Make no mistake, the Great Pyramid was a marvel, but not of engineering.  It was a marvel of logistics.  The Temple of Karnak, now that was a marvel of engineering.

And no, the ancient people were not lying.  They never said anything about the gods building things for them.  They spent lifetimes building things themselves.

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Also, I still believe the ancient peope would expect future people (us) to know more about the advanced beings by this time, not less.


Why would you expect that?  What would lead you to believe that this was the case?  What behaviour, tendency, or cultural aspect did you see that makes you think these people would do what you think they would do?

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So they would not be as? likely to lie on their monuments and sacred structures as they might be?? if they thought they would be able to fool people if they did...??? It just doesn't make sense that they would even try  :no:  or that the thought would even enter their minds.

I agree.  Which is why I am wondering what you are talking about.  Are you under the impression that ancient cultures attributed any of their great projects to gods, aliens, whatever?


#39    nopeda

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:38 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 12 March 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

That you have no idea how they were done.
. . .
Or, we can still figure it out.  Not that hard.
. . .
Lot's of people figured it out.  You see this stuff all over the world, all throughout time.  People figure it out over and over again.
. . .
Are you under the impression that ancient cultures attributed any of their great projects to gods, aliens, whatever?
Other than Ed Leedskalnin who else has provided proof by example that they could move giant rocks without the use of heavy machinery? Since you have apparently been at this for a while, do you have a bunch of links to YouTube or anyplace where people are demonstrating how to do it? If not, why not? That would probably settle it for most people who are in question, so if you know of no examples since it's not that hard for you, maybe you could even become famous for proving it just because no one else has bothered to take the time. Probably after you do it lots of other people will start doing it too. You don't even have to quarry your own stone. Just go move some huge concrete structures to prove your point, and get the local news to come video you doing it. If you do it right you probably could eventually get a regular show, doing it one way for one episode, and one of the other ways in the next, and another in the next... You could milk that thing, getting famous people to stand on the huge structures as you move them...if you think it's safe, and move cars, then trucks, then trains....

It seems that some of the ancient people said they were helped by the gods/star people, but I don't know any particular examples. They said those beings came around though. You don't believe they lied, but you don't believe they told the truth either. So what do you think they did do when they told us about beings coming to Earth and leaving again, and about how they did it? Do you think it's possible they described something that could easily have been beings from off planet coming and going but it was really something else, and if so, what?


#40    nopeda

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:56 PM

View PostSensible Logic, on 12 March 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

There is no evidence that aliens have built anything on Earth or even that they have visited Earth.
In contrast to that claim there is evidence of both regardless of whether beings who could have come here exist anywhere or not.

View PostSensible Logic, on 12 March 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

There are 300 billion stars in our galaxy alone and if only one percent of those stars have planets that could hold life that still leaves 3 billion stars from which to choose.  so the chance of aliens picking our solar system is 1 in 3 billion.
. . .
As you can see the chances are slim.
Not if this is a project planet as it very well could be. To me it seems more likely that there are space traveling beings who have project planets in the universe than that there are not. That being the case it's just as easy for me to believe we are living on one than that we're not. In fact it appears this may have begun as a reptilian sort of project but they decided to change it to one based on mammals instead, and then it went on from there. Maybe they moved the reptile project somewhere else...who knows? I can't help but doubt that you could know, since it doesn't appear that you're even able to appreciate the significance of such possibilities. What if you could learn to? You still wouldn't "know", but at least then you could expand the things you consider to some possibilities beyond just "no".


#41    scowl

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:57 PM

View Postnopeda, on 12 March 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Then why did everybody 'forget' how  :unsure2:  or whatever is making it so no one can do it again in the same way(s) now?
You're really asking "How has architecture changed in the last few thousand years?" You could spend years learning about this so I'll try to hit the main points...

  • We stopped building pyramids. As civilization advanced, we realized that employing tens of thousands of people to build gigantic tombs out of piles of rocks were a waste of national resources. War and trade became the new use for tens of thousands of people. We could build stuff in the "same way" now, but it would cost billions of dollars to employ thousands of people.

  • Slavery became unpopular. Back when personal freedom and worker safety weren't even concepts, a leader could force masses of people to do anything they wanted by just feeding them. As we became more civilized, labor became more expensive and harder to find.

  • We developed concrete. Lime cement allowed Romans to quickly pour tons of concrete to build massive structures in forms without lifting a heavy stone. While the Greeks took ages to form massive columns out of solid marble, the Romans just glued thin marbles tiles to their lime concrete forms. This is the building technique we still use today.

  • The Egyptians (and other civilizations) didn't keep records. The concept of retaining the diagram of a structure after it has been built is new. It would have been pointless back then.

  • Civilization moved to Christian Europe. Christians had no interest in stacking boring piles of rocks to impress God. They built fabulously detailed churches to impress living people. Since there aren't many granite or marble quarries in Europe, timber construction became the main construction method. There are many detailed diagrams and even paintings on how they lifted gigantic pieces of timber hundreds of feet in the air using pullies and horses. Masonry, the main construction technique of the ancient world, was no longer the main way to construct large structures.

If you're really interested in this, there are many books on ancient construction techniques. There has been a lot of research in the past few decades and these ancient structures are not so mysterious any more.


#42    nopeda

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostMyles, on 12 March 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

Oh please don't tell me that Ancient Aliens has played a factor in this?
I'm watching it and taking notes, so please tell me what they're lying about so I can make notes on when they do that too. If you don't know of anything they lie about please let me know that instead, so I'm not suspicious for no good reason.


#43    scowl

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:09 PM

View Postnopeda, on 13 March 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

To me it seems more likely that there are space traveling beings who have project planets in the universe than that there are not.
To you science fiction is more likely than actual science.

There is no reason we should waste any more time providing you evidence that contradicts your belief in godlike astrobeings.


#44    Myles

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:12 PM

View Postnopeda, on 13 March 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

I'm watching it and taking notes, so please tell me what they're lying about so I can make notes on when they do that too. If you don't know of anything they lie about please let me know that instead, so I'm not suspicious for no good reason.
They lie about almost everything.   They only give one side of the arguement.    They leave out facts that would destroy their "story".  Boy, I could go on and on.  I can see it is too late for you.   You have gobbled it up even though there is not any evidence to support it.


#45    nopeda

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:22 PM

View Postscowl, on 13 March 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

You're really asking "How has architecture changed in the last few thousand years?"
That's not what I was asking, but I do appreciate your good explanation.

View Postscowl, on 13 March 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

If you're really interested in this, there are many books on ancient construction techniques. There has been a lot of research in the past few decades and these ancient structures are not so mysterious any more.
So far it still is to me. If someone presents some good explanation(s) about exactly how all those different societies figured out how to do things and how they did them, then it won't be mysterious. But I'm not going to go try to find the answer to back up other people's position when I don't think it really exists, in large part because no one has presented it to back up their own position yet.





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