26 replies to this topic

[Yamato]

It's not often discussed what the origins are for some of these illegal "settlements" that are the source of so much animosity towards Israel in the world.  Perhaps surprisingly, some of them were started out as a hodgepodge of shelters built on prime Palestinian hilltop real estate by groups of radical Zionist criminals who scoff not only at international law, but even at the Israeli government's, and brazenly take both laws into their own hands to expand their illegal dwellings into what the Israeli government will over the course of bureaucratic time recognize as legitimate.   This particular group of hyper-nationalists that the settlers are composed of are never mentioned in the US media, and I've never heard them mentioned on this board before either so this might prove to be a welcome change of subject.

I'm going to remind myself from now on that excellent debate and common courtesy aren't mutually exclusive.   Let's all try to be mindful of the free and thankless work that the administrator and moderators have to spend their free time doing here on our behalf, so we even have this website to debate and discuss in the first place.

From the article below:

Israel's Hilltop Youth movement has been active for years, establishing Jewish settlement outposts on barren West Bank hills without bothering to get permission from the Israeli government.   The Hilltop Youth occasionally received attention, usually when they damaged Palestinian property in the West Bank. But now they are in the headlines after a group of them raided an Israeli military base.

Israel has charged five settlers as part of a promised clampdown on extremist Jewish groups. The Hilltop Youth seek to settle what they claim is all of the land of Israel, though it includes territory in the occupied West Bank, which the Palestinians want for their future state.

One such outpost, Ramat Migron, is on a hill with a view through the olive trees to the mountains of the West Bank. It's cold and spartan, with only a few makeshift dwellings.  It doesn't really seem like much, but the Hilltop Youth hope this tiny camp will eventually expand into a recognized settlement.

To read more:

http://www.npr.org/2...l-hilltop-youth

[ouija ouija]

That's a very interesting article, but if I'm honest I would have to say that I have given up trying to understand the Israel/Palestine situation.

[pallidin]

ouija ouija, on 24 January 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

That's a very interesting article, but if I'm honest I would have to say that I have given up trying to understand the Israel/Palestine situation.

No worries, it's easy. THEY HATE EACH OTHER.

[AsteroidX]

Yeah. Hard to figure that one out for sure.

[Hasina]

Palestine and Israel just need to rap battle their differences out. Yes, I was making a point with that joke, I hate that foreign countries are involved in this territorial spat.

[pallidin]

They each want expansion, as their population grows. That's one problem.

The other problem is that their religious idealogy is not compatable for side-by-side-peace, and especially not co-existing.

On top of all that, they want the same land!
.

Kind-of seriously messed-up, if you ask me.

[AsteroidX]

Break dance battle ala 80's hassina. I would not want to listen to Israel/Palestinian rap. That would drive me crazed fer sure.

[and then]

Interesting article and thanks for posting.  These groups began after the sellout that was Gaza.  Most of the settlers from Gaza are still in mobile home slums.  It's one thing to uproot people and promise them a new start -quite another to do so and then just forget them.  I understand the price tag sentiment.  They are just protesting, after all.  But the primary problem isn't much changed nor will it be.  Two groups of people deadly earnest about living (alone) on the same piece of land.

[pallidin]

and then, on 24 January 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

Two groups of people deadly earnest about living (alone) on the same piece of land.

Yep, that's about it. Other than the push for expansionism of radical Islam, of course.

[Yamato]

pallidin, on 24 January 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

Yep, that's about it. Other than the push for expansionism of radical Islam, of course.

So scary

[and then]

Yamato, on 25 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

So scary

Yup...nothing to see here, move along...whatever...

[Frank Merton]

I have to say I tend to be pro-Israel.  They built a working society and made the desert bloom and have been there now a couple generations.  The Palestinians have done nothing except explode bombs, in spite of masses of aid.

I know the history, but based on history the Native Americans should kick out the Europeans -- indeed, the Celts should kick out the English and the French.

[Yamato]

Frank Merton, on 25 January 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

I have to say I tend to be pro-Israel.  They built a working society and made the desert bloom and have been there now a couple generations.  The Palestinians have done nothing except explode bombs, in spite of masses of aid.

I know the history, but based on history the Native Americans should kick out the Europeans -- indeed, the Celts should kick out the English and the French.

Your first statement aside, applying "the history" and "kicking out" to Palestinians is the pot calling the kettle.   If the Zionist movement wasn't based on history, Israel wouldn't exist in the first place.  They used religious history as the excuse to establish statehood in Palestine and in the process, deliberately administered a humanitarian disaster for people who weren't there because of the "history" of the place, they were there because they lived there.   The Native Americans should kick out the "Europeans", but nearly the entire world that wants Palestine and Israel living side by side as equal partners in statehood aren't asking anyone to kick anyone out from anywhere.  What we're asking for, is to stop doing it.

[and then]

Yamato, on 26 January 2013 - 09:09 AM, said:

Your first statement aside, applying "the history" and "kicking out" to Palestinians is the pot calling the kettle.   If the Zionist movement wasn't based on history, Israel wouldn't exist in the first place.  They used religious history as the excuse to establish statehood in Palestine and in the process, deliberately administered a humanitarian disaster for people who weren't there because of the "history" of the place, they were there because they lived there.   The Native Americans should kick out the "Europeans", but nearly the entire world that wants Palestine and Israel living side by side as equal partners in statehood aren't asking anyone to kick anyone out from anywhere.  What we're asking for, is to stop doing it.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that for your plan to be realized, about 6 million Israelis would have to pull up stakes and move (to where?) and leave behind all the work and investment of the past 6 decades.  It's irrational to believe such a scenario will ever be possible Yam.  Even if they were not the biggest and best military in the region AND a nuclear power.  So their enemies keep at it, hoping that they can demoralize the will of the people until they will leave voluntarily or cede enough territory that they can be effectively defeated in a war.  It's a battle of hatred and of wills.  it's funny to me how people here (and I don't include you in this statement) who rebel at the very idea of God or faith in any form will quite faithfully keep up the hope for Israel's demise.  They don't even see the irony in their position.

[Yamato]

and then, on 26 January 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

What you refuse to acknowledge is that for your plan to be realized, about 6 million Israelis would have to pull up stakes and move (to where?) and leave behind all the work and investment of the past 6 decades.  It's irrational to believe such a scenario will ever be possible Yam.  Even if they were not the biggest and best military in the region AND a nuclear power.  So their enemies keep at it, hoping that they can demoralize the will of the people until they will leave voluntarily or cede enough territory that they can be effectively defeated in a war.  It's a battle of hatred and of wills.  it's funny to me how people here (and I don't include you in this statement) who rebel at the very idea of God or faith in any form will quite faithfully keep up the hope for Israel's demise.  They don't even see the irony in their position.

No, that's misunderstanding my post.  That's doing more of the same when I'm clearly trying to stop it.   Don't confuse Israel with Zionist settlements, for "God's" sake.

If Mississippi invaded Georgia through Alabama, Georgia has no right to annex parts of Alabama much less settle on her land, much less uproot her people and never allow them to return.  The Alabamians would be returned, every man, woman and child, to every home, and every plot of land, bar none.   That is justice and that's the same justice Palestinians deserve.   When a Palestinian is forced out of her home with brutal force of the Israeli government, being answered with brute force in return is justice.   We are so many years and so many thefts and slaughters past the point of legitimacy in an armed Palestinian revolt in this conflict it's beyond self-evidence at this point; it's primal.

If I recognize Israel, and I do, then I recognize Palestine by the exact same measure.  Either get out of Palestine, Israel, or the people of the world who genuinely care about civil liberties won't get off of you.  Security for both sides can easily be reached with international military forces.   Keeping US soldiers in Iraq for 100 years a la John McCain was a pipe dream the American people would have none of.  Keeping international forces in two independent states, Israel and Palestine, will likely be necessary.   You should see there is no reason to support what you do support being done to the Palestinians.  All your problems will be solved by international security forces.   If Israel wanted peace and security as bad as it claims it does, it would be leading the initiative to execute such a plan.   But it wants land, thus peace and security can wait for its clear path to the annihilation and annexation of Palestine.  Anyone honest enough to look at a map can see what's going on over there.   Hiding it in sugary rhetoric is no longer possible.