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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#2566    Knul

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:40 PM

View PostApol, on 03 March 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Yes, that is a matter of logic, and I agree of course 100% in that. But in my opinion this question remains: Where was really Hâga Fênna and Walda?

I was astonished that you're placing Lindahem in Wolvega. I looked up Wolvega in the Wikipedia, and I found this:
"Het enige buitenhuis dat nu nog in Wolvega staat, is Huize Lindenoord. Hier heeft onder andere de beroemde grietman Willem van Haren gewoond."
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolvega
I suppose that's the basis of your theory, and it is in fact an extremely interesting observation, Knul.

Here you find the official website of the two castles at Kuinre: http://www.mathieuin...nderburcht.html . Unfortunately in Dutch, but you may see the remnants and a reconstruction.


#2567    Knul

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 10:32 PM

View PostKnul, on 04 March 2013 - 09:40 PM, said:

Here you find the official website of the two castles at Kuinre: http://www.mathieuin...nderburcht.html . Unfortunately in Dutch, but you may see the remnants and a reconstruction.


DETTE ER DE GRIETMENNENE UNDER HVIS LEDELSE DENNE BOKA ER SKAPT:

Âpol, Adelas mann. Tre ganger har han vært sjøkonge. Nå er han grietmann over Âst-Flílând [Øst-Vlieland] og over Lindawrda [Linda-oorden]. Borgene Ljvdgârda [i Leeuwarden], Lindahêm [Wolvega] og Stâvja [i Stavoren] er under hans beskyttelse.

Saxmannen Storo, Sytjas mann – grietmann over Hâga Fênna og Walda [Tjonger area at Kuinre]. Ni ganger har han blitt valgt til hertug – det vil si til hærfører. Borgene Bvda [?] og Mannagardaforda [Münster ?] er under hans beskyttelse.

Âbêlo, Jaltjas mann; grietmann over Sûdar Flílânda [Sør-Vlieland]. Fire ganger har han vært hærfører. Borgene Aken [The Hague], Ljvdburch [Leiden] og Kâtsburch [Katwijk, Brittenburg] er under hans beskyttelse.

Enoch, Díweks mann – grietmann over Westflílând [Vest-Vlieland] og Texland [Texel]. Ni ganger ble han valgt til sjøkonge. Waraburch [Hoorn], Mêdêasblik [Medemblik], Forâna [Vroonen] og Gamle Frøyasburg [Den Burg, Texel] er under hans beskyttelse.

Foppo, Dunrôs’ mann – grietmann over Sjvgun Êlânda [Zeeland]. Fem ganger har han vært sjøkonge. Borgen Walhallagâra [Domburg, Walcheren] er under hans beskyttelse.


#2568    Apol

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:36 AM

View PostKnul, on 04 March 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

DETTE ER DE GRIETMENNENE UNDER HVIS LEDELSE DENNE BOKA ER SKAPT:

Âpol, Adelas mann. Tre ganger har han vært sjøkonge. Nå er han grietmann over Âst-Flílând [Øst-Vlieland] og over Lindawrda [Linda-oorden]. Borgene Ljvdgârda [i Leeuwarden], Lindahêm [Wolvega] og Stâvja [i Stavoren] er under hans beskyttelse.

Saxmannen Storo, Sytjas mann – grietmann over Hâga Fênna og Walda [Tjonger area at Kuinre]. Ni ganger har han blitt valgt til hertug – det vil si til hærfører. Borgene Bvda [?] og Mannagardaforda [Münster ?] er under hans beskyttelse.

Âbêlo, Jaltjas mann; grietmann over Sûdar Flílânda [Sør-Vlieland]. Fire ganger har han vært hærfører. Borgene Aken [The Hague], Ljvdburch [Leiden] og Kâtsburch [Katwijk, Brittenburg] er under hans beskyttelse.

Enoch, Díweks mann – grietmann over Westflílând [Vest-Vlieland] og Texland [Texel]. Ni ganger ble han valgt til sjøkonge. Waraburch [Hoorn], Mêdêasblik [Medemblik], Forâna [Vroonen] og Gamle Frøyasburg [Den Burg, Texel] er under hans beskyttelse.

Foppo, Dunrôs’ mann – grietmann over Sjvgun Êlânda [Zeeland]. Fem ganger har han vært sjøkonge. Borgen Walhallagâra [Domburg, Walcheren] er under hans beskyttelse.

I have no big problems reading Dutch, Knul, but I wasn't able to open the Kuinderburcht link. It seems to me like the website has disappeared.
Your corrections of my data for the grietenijen and burghs of Fryasland are in fact interesting. As you may have seen, I've already changed Kuinre into Wolvega.

Already a long time ago I considered Katwijk as the site of Kattaburch, but eventually I abandoned the idea. May I ask what makes you link Aken to The Hague?

The reason why I have chosen Hoorn, and not Enkhuizen, as the site of Wâraburch/Aldergâmvde, is, that the text says: "It is situated three poles – that is a half tide – southwards from Mêdêasblik". I have wondered why they have chosen poles as their main measure - it is a land measure. I think the hammering down of poles in the water was for the purpose of the breaking of waves only, Consequently, I think they may have measured the distance overland - Hoorn is situated right south of Medemblik. As one pole was 3-4 kms, three poles should be between 9 and 12 kms, which is in an approximate agreement with the distance from Medemblik to Hoorn. There existed anciently a river named De Gouw which emptied in or near Hoorn, but which is now reduced into being the name of a street in the center of the city, more or less.

Has your decision of placing Walhallagâra in Domburg to do with the Nehalennia altars found there? There were also found Nehalennia altars near Colijnsplaat on the north coast of the island. According to palaeographic maps there were no islands in Zeeland between 2000 BC and the birth of Christ - if they are exact. The coastline of Walcheren seems not to have changed much, though, which means that Domburg wouldn't have been situated "in the middle of an island" in those times. That's why I think that Walhallagâra was identical to Middelburg, which also was a burgh originally.

Edited by Apol, 05 March 2013 - 04:42 AM.


#2569    Abramelin

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 10:54 AM

Apol, you should not forget that this is not about 2000 BCE, but instead about around 600 BCE (following the OLB chronology). By then the Dutch province of Zeeland consisted of several islands.

And Middelburg didn't even exist around that time:

The city of Middelburg dates back possibly to the late 8th century or early 9th century. The first mention of Middelburg was as one of three fortified towns (i.e., borgs) erected on Walcheren (then an island) to guard against Viking raids.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Middelburg


Wâraburch is probably Wieringen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieringen

Another thing: we should not forget that when we want to locate the burghs in South Flyland we must take into account that many villages and burghs were drowned when the Zuiderzee was formed in the late middle ages.


#2570    Knul

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostApol, on 05 March 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

I have no big problems reading Dutch, Knul, but I wasn't able to open the Kuinderburcht link. It seems to me like the website has disappeared.
Your corrections of my data for the grietenijen and burghs of Fryasland are in fact interesting. As you may have seen, I've already changed Kuinre into Wolvega.

Already a long time ago I considered Katwijk as the site of Kattaburch, but eventually I abandoned the idea. May I ask what makes you link Aken to The Hague?

The reason why I have chosen Hoorn, and not Enkhuizen, as the site of Wâraburch/Aldergâmvde, is, that the text says: "It is situated three poles – that is a half tide – southwards from Mêdêasblik". I have wondered why they have chosen poles as their main measure - it is a land measure. I think the hammering down of poles in the water was for the purpose of the breaking of waves only, Consequently, I think they may have measured the distance overland - Hoorn is situated right south of Medemblik. As one pole was 3-4 kms, three poles should be between 9 and 12 kms, which is in an approximate agreement with the distance from Medemblik to Hoorn. There existed anciently a river named De Gouw which emptied in or near Hoorn, but which is now reduced into being the name of a street in the center of the city, more or less.

Has your decision of placing Walhallagâra in Domburg to do with the Nehalennia altars found there? There were also found Nehalennia altars near Colijnsplaat on the north coast of the island. According to palaeographic maps there were no islands in Zeeland between 2000 BC and the birth of Christ - if they are exact. The coastline of Walcheren seems not to have changed much, though, which means that Domburg wouldn't have been situated "in the middle of an island" in those times. That's why I think that Walhallagâra was identical to Middelburg, which also was a burgh originally.

First I give you an other link to the Kuinre castles: http://www.kasteleni...kasteel4386.php The other website still exists.

Aken looks of course very much like Aken = Aachen, but that town is simply not in the Rhine area. Secondly I look for places in the area of South-Flyland. Ljudburg or Lydasburg may be Leiden. In Leiden there is a famous castle. Ljudburg has been called Lydasburg as well, because of the black people living in Leiden like in Alkmaar.

Katwijk - the name has been derived from Catti - is close to this place at seaside.  The castle (Brittenburg) has disappeared. See my website: http://www.rodinbook...rittenburg.html .

The Hague has a castle as well (which is now the parliament). The castle has been built in the time of Hidde Oera Linda. The name Aken may be derived from 's Graven-hagen (Graven = greva, grevetman). The H in the beginning is often abandoned in the OLB. The G may well have been changed to K as well. The ending -en is commonly changed to -a in the OLB. It's a guess.

One of the items collected at the Waraburch are shells. Shells are called 'hoorns' as well. You probably know about the Shell of Abundance, which in Dutch is Hoorn van Overvloed.  The city Hoorn is known to have been wealthy.By the way mile-poles are used on the Northsea beach till today. In fact the poles indicate seamiles.

At Domburg has been a so called ringwalburcht in Viking times. Close to Domburg was a harbour place Walichrum (in the time of Liko).  For the OLB it is interesting that at Domburg existed a Nehallennia temple. It has been a religious centre. So I prefer Domburg to Middelburg. By the way, I doubt such maps as you describe, because in fact Zeeland was a river delta of the river Schelde and partly of the river Maas. One supposes a junction between Maas and Schelde rivers at the back side of Zeeland.

I liked your website. I'll add your translation to http://www.rodinbook...ipt001-050.html next to the other translations. I hope you don't mind. I have spoken to the French translator, but he claims to have no digitalized text. Unfortunately the Russians never retranslated from English (Sandbach) or directly from Dutch (Ottema). Please don't forget to change Liege, because that is an odd possibility I have never heard of.

Edited by Knul, 05 March 2013 - 12:11 PM.


#2571    Abramelin

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:27 PM

Lindahem:


This is a list (in Dutch) of all the villages that have been lost in the new Zuiderzee, the Dollard, the Wadden Sea and in Zeeland:

http://www.nifterlac...php?3,3476,3479
http://de-wadden.clu...ronken-plaatsen

What's interesting is that there is one, called Luddengem, which made me think of Lindahem, because 'hem' and 'gem' mean exactly the same thing in Dutch placenames (residence, habitation, dwelling place), and because it was near Wieringen (Waraburch) , in the western part of the Wadden Sea (the triangle formed by Texel, Staveren and Medemblik/Enkhuizen).


From the OLB:

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

-

Minno was an ancient sea-king. He was a seer and a philosopher, and he gave laws to the Cretans. He was born at Lindaoord, and after all his wanderings he was lucky to die at Lindahem.

-

THE WRITING OF KONERÊD.
My forefathers have written this book in succession. I will do this, the more because there exists no longer in my state any citadel on which events are inscribed as used to be the case. My name is Konerêd. My father’s name was Frethorik, my mother’s name was Wiljow. After my father’s death I was chosen as his successor. When I was fifty years old I was chosen for chief Grevetman. My father has written how the Linda-wrda  and Ljudgârdne  were destroyed.Lindahêm is still lost, the Linda-wrda  partially, and the north Ljudgârdne  are still concealed by the salt sea
.

I have discussed Lindahem a long time ago, it's this post:

http://www.unexplain...55#entry3850199

And in that post I said there was a 'Lindenheim' in Schleswig-Holstein (it's a village west of Ahrensburg), but I didn't provide an image and you won't find it with Google Maps, but here it is:

Posted Image


Source: http://www.beyer-mie...sburg-2807.html


The main problem is, of course, it never submerged or disappeared as far as I know.

The records of the submerged west coast of Denmark should be interesting to look deeper into, because it was once part of "Magna Frisia".


#2572    Abramelin

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 09:42 PM

Another (and important) thing to consider is the difference in points of view concerning the OLB:

-1- If you believe it is (or might be) an authentic ancient manuscript describing an ancient European civilization, then you must find proof of place names appearing in the OLB which also show up in ancient Roman and Greek records of the area;

-2- If you believe it is a 19th century fabrication, you'll have to look for anything medieval or even later.

Den Haag/The Hague/La Haye didn't exist in 600 BCE, just like my "Ockenburgh/Aken-Burgh (also in The Hague btw) didn't exist back then.

So if you agree with Knul about The Hague being the OLB "Aken", you'll have to agree with the OLB being not as old as it purports to be.

+++

EDIT:

And Knul suggested that the ancient Frisians regularly dropped the initial -H- of a name/word, but I'd like to see an example of that from the OLB.

It's the much more modern Belgians who did that, and that is because they were influenced by the French language.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 05 March 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#2573    Knul

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:28 PM

How about ?

hrenka - renka
hringdik - ringdik
hrvtar - rvtar


Tha Johniar sprêkath  bêtre, thach hja swygath thi h aend hwêri navt nêsa mot, waerth er ûtekêth.


However OCKEN-BURG comes closer to AKEN than The Hague. maybe we should adopt OCKEN-BURG.

Edited by Knul, 05 March 2013 - 11:58 PM.


#2574    Apol

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:49 AM

View PostKnul, on 05 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

First I give you an other link to the Kuinre castles: http://www.kasteleni...kasteel4386.php The other website still exists.

Aken looks of course very much like Aken = Aachen, but that town is simply not in the Rhine area. Secondly I look for places in the area of South-Flyland. Ljudburg or Lydasburg may be Leiden. In Leiden there is a famous castle. Ljudburg has been called Lydasburg as well, because of the black people living in Leiden like in Alkmaar.

Katwijk - the name has been derived from Catti - is close to this place at seaside.  The castle (Brittenburg) has disappeared. See my website: http://www.rodinbook...rittenburg.html .

The Hague has a castle as well (which is now the parliament). The castle has been built in the time of Hidde Oera Linda. The name Aken may be derived from 's Graven-hagen (Graven = greva, grevetman). The H in the beginning is often abandoned in the OLB. The G may well have been changed to K as well. The ending -en is commonly changed to -a in the OLB. It's a guess.

One of the items collected at the Waraburch are shells. Shells are called 'hoorns' as well. You probably know about the Shell of Abundance, which in Dutch is Hoorn van Overvloed.  The city Hoorn is known to have been wealthy.By the way mile-poles are used on the Northsea beach till today. In fact the poles indicate seamiles.

At Domburg has been a so called ringwalburcht in Viking times. Close to Domburg was a harbour place Walichrum (in the time of Liko).  For the OLB it is interesting that at Domburg existed a Nehallennia temple. It has been a religious centre. So I prefer Domburg to Middelburg. By the way, I doubt such maps as you describe, because in fact Zeeland was a river delta of the river Schelde and partly of the river Maas. One supposes a junction between Maas and Schelde rivers at the back side of Zeeland.

I liked your website. I'll add your translation to http://www.rodinbook...ipt001-050.html next to the other translations. I hope you don't mind. I have spoken to the French translator, but he claims to have no digitalized text. Unfortunately the Russians never retranslated from English (Sandbach) or directly from Dutch (Ottema). Please don't forget to change Liege, because that is an odd possibility I have never heard of.

Even if I think your idea is interesting, I'm not willing to reject Liège as my principal option for the site of Ljvdburch yet. The idea was originally put forward by Overwijn (even a blind chicken may find a grain...). Ljvd/Ljud = people = 'Volksburcht'. And the city is situated in the right area, if Aken should happen to be Aachen - which still is my opinion. But I'm willing to change my opinion as soon as another idea is more convincing.

Here is what is written about the etymology of the name Liège on the English Wikipedia:
The name is Germanic in origin and is reconstructible as *liudik-, from the Germanic word *liudiz "people", which is found in for example Dutch lui(den), lieden, German Leute, Old English lēod and Icelandic lýður ("people"). It is found in Latin as Leodicum or Leodium, in Middle Dutch as ludic or ludeke.
http://en.wikipedia.....org/wiki/Liège

Your comment that mile-poles are still in use on the North Sea coast for indicating sea miles was new to me, and very interesting. I have missed information on that topic. Do you have some information?

Yes, you can of course add my text to your website - I feel honored by that. But please be aware that I'm changing details all the time, as soon as I have some new information or another opinion.

Edited by Apol, 06 March 2013 - 02:20 AM.


#2575    Apol

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:10 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 March 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

Another (and important) thing to consider is the difference in points of view concerning the OLB:

-1- If you believe it is (or might be) an authentic ancient manuscript describing an ancient European civilization, then you must find proof of place names appearing in the OLB which also show up in ancient Roman and Greek records of the area;

-2- If you believe it is a 19th century fabrication, you'll have to look for anything medieval or even later.

Den Haag/The Hague/La Haye didn't exist in 600 BCE, just like my "Ockenburgh/Aken-Burgh (also in The Hague btw) didn't exist back then.

So if you agree with Knul about The Hague being the OLB "Aken", you'll have to agree with the OLB being not as old as it purports to be.

+++

EDIT:

And Knul suggested that the ancient Frisians regularly dropped the initial -H- of a name/word, but I'd like to see an example of that from the OLB.

It's the much more modern Belgians who did that, and that is because they were influenced by the French language.

.

One of the problems with our materialistic natural science, is, that it is near to 100% dependent on matter. Places don't exist before they are mentioned in some manuscript.
Often we read on the Wikipedia that a city was founded by this and that person in this and that year. But this doesn't necessarily mean that there didn't exist a place at the same site from before - and with even the same name if the souvereign didn't put his own to it. It's often the rulers who write history and who have the resources to do so, and their main reason for doing it, is often their urge to immortalize themselves so that they can surpass their predecessors in reputation.
Anyway, the fact is that the farther back in time we come, the fewer recordings we have - regardless of who wrote them down. Therefore we often see the remark: "...first mention around AD XXXX...".

Edited by Apol, 06 March 2013 - 02:30 AM.


#2576    Apol

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:32 AM

View PostApol, on 06 March 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

One of the problems with our materialistic natural science, is, that it is near to 100% dependent on matter. Places don't exist before they are mentioned in some manuscript.
Often we read on the Wikipedia that a city was founded by this and that person in this and that year. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there didn't exist a place at the same site from before - and with even the same name if the souvereign didn't put his own to it. It's often the rulers who write history and who have the resources to do so, and their main reason for doing it, is often their urge to immortalize themselves so that they can surpass their predecessors in reputation.
Anyway, the fact is that the farther back in time we come, the fewer recordings we have - regardless of who wrote them down. Therefore we often see the remark: "...first mention around AD XXXX...".



#2577    Abramelin

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:48 AM

View PostApol, on 06 March 2013 - 02:10 AM, said:

One of the problems with our materialistic natural science, is, that it is near to 100% dependent on matter. Places don't exist before they are mentioned in some manuscript.
Often we read on the Wikipedia that a city was founded by this and that person in this and that year. But this doesn't necessarily mean that there didn't exist a place at the same site from before - and with even the same name if the souvereign didn't put his own to it. It's often the rulers who write history and who have the resources to do so, and their main reason for doing it, is often their urge to immortalize themselves so that they can surpass their predecessors in reputation.
Anyway, the fact is that the farther back in time we come, the fewer recordings we have - regardless of who wrote them down. Therefore we often see the remark: "...first mention around AD XXXX...".

OK, the first mention of a place in some record doesn't mean that that was the moment the place was settled. But we also use archeological evidence. and that is how we for instance know when Middelburg was settled (or the Hague for that matter) and that was more than 1000 years after the time the OLB said it existed.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 March 2013 - 07:04 AM.


#2578    Abramelin

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 06:58 AM

View PostKnul, on 05 March 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

How about ?

hrenka - renka
hringdik - ringdik
hrvtar - rvtar


Tha Johniar sprêkath  bêtre, thach hja swygath thi h aend hwêri navt nêsa mot, waerth er ûtekêth.


However OCKEN-BURG comes closer to AKEN than The Hague. maybe we should adopt OCKEN-BURG.

As a source of inspiration for the OLB "Aken", yes. And as I posted earlier, the German Aken was also pronounced as "Ochen" or "Oochen" in some dialects, so Ockenburg in The Hague kind of fits.

And there was a centuries older Ockenburg in Wateringen, which is close to The Hague.

--

hrenka (OLB) - renka
hringdik
(OLB) - ringdik
hrvtar
(OLB) - rvtar


With this you prove that the Fryans did not drop the initial -H- .

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 March 2013 - 07:06 AM.


#2579    Abramelin

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:16 AM

View PostApol, on 06 March 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

Even if I think your idea is interesting, I'm not willing to reject Liège as my principal option for the site of Ljvdburch yet. The idea was originally put forward by Overwijn (even a blind chicken may find a grain...). Ljvd/Ljud = people = 'Volksburcht'. And the city is situated in the right area, if Aken should happen to be Aachen - which still is my opinion. But I'm willing to change my opinion as soon as another idea is more convincing.

Here is what is written about the etymology of the name Liège on the English Wikipedia:
The name is Germanic in origin and is reconstructible as *liudik-, from the Germanic word *liudiz "people", which is found in for example Dutch lui(den), lieden, German Leute, Old English lēod and Icelandic lýður ("people"). It is found in Latin as Leodicum or Leodium, in Middle Dutch as ludic or ludeke.
http://en.wikipedia.....org/wiki/Liège



I agree that Ljud = people.

Quote from the OLB:

THE WRITING OF KONERÊD.
My forefathers have written this book in succession. I will do this, the more because there exists no longer in my state any citadel on which events are inscribed as used to be the case. My name is Konerêd. My father’s name was Frethorik, my mother’s name was Wiljow. After my father’s death I was chosen as his successor. When I was fifty years old I was chosen for chief Grevetman. My father has written how the Linda-wrda  and Ljudgârdne were destroyed.Lindahêm is still lost, the Linda-wrda  partially, and the north Ljudgârdne  are still concealed by the salt sea.


I preserved the original spelling of "Ljudgârdne", which appears to mean nothing else but (DU) "volkstuinen", literally, "people's gardens" or allotments.

These gardens are still popular among people who live in cities here.

.


#2580    Abramelin

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:30 AM

Ljvdburch = 'Volksburcht' ?

I just read the other day that farmers (the "volk") in NW Europe often erected a ringwall (with a moat) around their settlement to protect themselves against attacks (and not only against the Vikings).

So if  Liège = Ljvdburch, did it once have such a ringwall? And was it once such a protected settlement without any king or lord or representative of the government?