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Are we the earliest intelligent species ?


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#61    Hasina

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:08 AM

View Postpallidin, on 11 October 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Does an egocentric mind even entertain the idea of intelligence other than theirself?
I know I don't, you people are nothing but insects to me. ;D

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#62    psyche101

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:54 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

We have definitely destroyed more than we've fixed. We have taken huge amounts of forests down out of their natural cycle.

And we are replanting forests in vast swathes and going back over the damage done. What other species does that?

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Overfishing is a problem because we are fishing more than the fish can reproduce (coupled with other species getting tangled in the nets we don't eat).

How do we know overfishing is a problem, and why do we consider it a problem?

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Poor management of waste in some countries have had a huge affect on the wildlife.

Yes, that is why we are supposed to be able to rely on the UN. It is against the law, companies and even individuals are fined. What I get from you and your mate is that you think humans are evil and destroying the planet, what we are doing is what apex predators do, but we are now recognising that such can be damaging, and are trying to fix it. There are laws in place to stop what you are describing above. Do Elephants punish the elephants who knock down trees?

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Not to mention pollution, the air quality over some cities is detrimental.

Indeed, and Cows are farting a hole in the atmosphere, good thing we are eating them huh!

Nature also destroys the quality of air, ever heard of the Deccan Traps?

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Those species we "brought from the brink of extinction" were mostly in that situation because of us, from hunting to introduction of domesticated pets and pests. I could go on and on but we are trying to fix the problems we've caused, unfortunately not enough.

Some are and some aren't. Like I said, what would  T Rex do with a Dolphin stranded on the Beach? Or the benevolent aforementioned Elephant? What do Humans do?

I said we should not all have to pay for the mistakes of some. Some are going to be numpties, not much we can do about that, but we are a species that recognises right from wrong and fixes it. Even if we do not do it. Not enough? What species does more?

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Some companies are thinking in the long term and recognise this problem and try to conserve what they use and make it more sustainable, others just want quick money and will have the world pay for their greed later on.


Thats is life, and these characteristics are common in the animal kingdom too. How does that make Dolphins and Elephants better creatures than us? Are you saying this contingent does not exist in nature?

This is also exactly what I said, twice now, why should all of humanity come under the banner held up by a few undesirables?

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

We rely on nature to live, you put it against its own order of things and it will throw it off balance.


Hippy crap. We manipulate our environment  Some mess it up, other have to clean it up, thing is we are the only species that has a contingent that cares about the environment and other species. I think people who say we are less than these wild animals needs their head read. It strikes me as an early symptom of depression. You poop in your own backyard, it will smell, not rocket science.


If you want to have some dark deep hateful and resenting little kernel against humanity, that's your life. I am not interested in introverted emo crap.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#63    psyche101

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:59 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

That picture is from a festival where the elephants are being used as ceremonial beasts. They are smart creatures. Sometimes when you've been used for too long you snap. Just like the elephant.

I'll remember that next time I feel I am being used at work or at home. Can I kill my boss and say "he was using me" to get off the hook?

Ceremonial beast sounds like a pretty elevated position to me. Aren't they the ones that get the back rubs and baths?

View PostOrcseeker, on 12 October 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

I am also quite sure that an intelligent creature would recognise when their own home ground starts to shrink. And in retaliation, attack those who are responsible for that, humans.

Ohh, I see, so when one kills in revenge, that is quite acceptable.

Have we not risen above slaughtering a species because one of the species caused you some hurt? That is what the above is describing. I do not think that is something to herald.

I see you left Dolphins alone?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#64    Hawkin

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:14 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 12 October 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

From your link:


The rate of deforestation is now slowing, and in 2011 deforestation figures were the slowest on record, although the forest is still shrinking.[4][24]
Norwegian prime minister Jens Stoltenberg announced on September 16, 2008, that the Norwegian Government would donate US $1 billion to the newly established Amazon fund. The money from this fund will go to projects aimed at slowing down the deforestation of the Amazon rainforest


Dolphins? They are evil! Crikey! They are wild animals that we have some sort of strange passion for. They murder, they practise infanticide, and they rape. Even people have been raped by Dolphins, there is a rumour the the actress Demi Moore had an unpleasent encounter with a Dolphin! But I am not blaming the Dolphin in that case!! :w00t:

And the Elephant? That lovable gentle giant? LOL!!

They murder us, each other, the raid crops, and can be very bad tempered. I take it you have never seen a doco with an Elephant. Some have gathered groups with what appears to be the intention of killing villages of humans. Keep an eye out for a Doco called The Dark Side Of Elephants.

Both are beautiful creatures, but they are not benevolent.




Posted Image





Why do you hate humanity?

I don't hate humanity. I'm just telling it how it is. Yes deforestation has slowed but it hasn't stopped.
Yes the animals that I mentioned have another side to them but unlike us they are not Polluting & setting
off nuclear weapons in the dessert and getting radiation in the atmosphere and causing cancer.

Edited by Ryegrog, 12 October 2012 - 03:16 AM.

It's good to have some skepticism so you won't be gullible & naïve. But to much skepticism can make you arrogant & egotistical.

#65    psyche101

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:56 AM

View PostRyegrog, on 12 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:



I have mentioned that Youtube videos are just a white rectangle to me. I have no access. I am not very upset about it.

View PostRyegrog, on 12 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

I don't hate humanity. I'm just telling it how it is.

I get the strong impression that you see humanity in a very dim light. Every one and everything has an off day. And there is one in every crowd. I feel you are using this as a bar to judge humanity, which I think is not fair the the majority of the planet.

View PostRyegrog, on 12 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Yes deforestation has slowed but it hasn't stopped.

Exactly. It is slowing, and because we are able to give a rodents rectum, and do. We have to make mistakes to learn from them. We seem to be learning from this, which I find very positive, and I expect this first time in the history of this planet that any species has cared about more then the day ahead.

View PostRyegrog, on 12 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

Yes the animals that I mentioned have another side to them but unlike us they are not Polluting & setting
off nuclear weapons in the dessert and getting radiation in the atmosphere and causing cancer.

They rape, commit infanticide, steal, kill and slaughter for fun. Nuclear energy can be used cleanly and provide resources for everyone, again, you are hanging all of humanity in the actions of a few. This does not represent the 6 billion on earth.

How many people do you know that have caught cancer like this?


LINK - Infanticide Reported in Dolphins.

Edited by psyche101, 12 October 2012 - 04:00 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#66    Hawkin

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:14 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 12 October 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

I have mentioned that Youtube videos are just a white rectangle to me. I have no access. I am not very upset about it.



I get the strong impression that you see humanity in a very dim light. Every one and everything has an off day. And there is one in every crowd. I feel you are using this as a bar to judge humanity, which I think is not fair the the majority of the planet.



Exactly. It is slowing, and because we are able to give a rodents rectum, and do. We have to make mistakes to learn from them. We seem to be learning from this, which I find very positive, and I expect this first time in the history of this planet that any species has cared about more then the day ahead.



They rape, commit infanticide, steal, kill and slaughter for fun. Nuclear energy can be used cleanly and provide resources for everyone, again, you are hanging all of humanity in the actions of a few. This does not represent the 6 billion on earth.

How many people do you know that have caught cancer like this?


LINK - Infanticide Reported in Dolphins.

I believe the worlds population is now 7 billion. Double that since the early 1960's.
Do you think if the population keeps growing mother earth will be able to substain  her?

That's another trait we humans have... Pride. It's amazing how you and I provide each
other links to back our claims but reject them because we don't like to be wrong. So what's the sense in
asking for a link for info if one is going to reject it?

BTW... You're right about Violence in Elephants and Dolphins. How's that for manning up?

It's good to have some skepticism so you won't be gullible & naïve. But to much skepticism can make you arrogant & egotistical.

#67    SurgeTechnologies

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:20 PM

Based on how long we are here.... i think we are not one of first civilizations. I watched a documentary 2 days ago, that had a topic on how we came to be. Interesting fact was that a scientist said we were all made out of stardust, because it contained genetic materials for making life possible, human and animal... So that took place in half of our planets age, lets say 10 millions years ago when the ape was on the rise.

What i am trying to say is that stardust came from a supernova explosion, once it sucked everything in it exploded and shot all that material all over the space. So if this guy was half right, there are plenty more civilizations out there, but they are too far from us and our reach. Beliving we are the only one is very ignorant, because man cannot comprehend the vastness of space, i mean our brains can't..

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#68    Orcseeker

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:26 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 12 October 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:



And we are replanting forests in vast swathes and going back over the damage done. What other species does that?
The problem with this is, in 3rd world countries the money that can be made means there is a lot of corruption and they will risk cutting down forests regardless of the punishment. (I myself have witnessed an ISLAND of floating forest being transported over the sea). You mention what other species does this? Well none. Others neednt to because they don't consume anywhere near the amount of wood we do and depletion of forests would not be a problem at all as a result of them.

Quote

How do we know overfishing is a problem, and why do we consider it a problem?
I will direct you to this site to answer that question: http://overfishing.o...g_a_problem.php

Quote

Yes, that is why we are supposed to be able to rely on the UN. It is against the law, companies and even individuals are fined. What I get from you and your mate is that you think humans are evil and destroying the planet, what we are doing is what apex predators do, but we are now recognising that such can be damaging, and are trying to fix it. There are laws in place to stop what you are describing above. Do Elephants punish the elephants who knock down trees?
I am not implying we are evil and destructive. I have addressed some have recognised the fact that continuing our damage is unsustainable and in the long term will cost more. Elephants don't knock down trees on a scale in which it would be considered a threat to any forest and the biodiversity. As stated before the corruption is more rife than you think and it will continue as the profits rise.

Quote

Indeed, and Cows are farting a hole in the atmosphere, good thing we are eating them huh!

Nature also destroys the quality of air, ever heard of the Deccan Traps?
I am aware. I am also aware that during a period in the time of the dinosaurs the entire atmosphere was polluted and in fact poisonous to breathe. What I am arguing here is that it is not conducted by nature.

Quote

Some are and some aren't. Like I said, what would  T Rex do with a Dolphin stranded on the Beach? Or the benevolent aforementioned Elephant? What do Humans do?

I said we should not all have to pay for the mistakes of some. Some are going to be numpties, not much we can do about that, but we are a species that recognises right from wrong and fixes it. Even if we do not do it. Not enough? What species does more?
I never stated elephants were at all benevolent. People forget they are wild animals. Depends on the situation, a T Rex if fed might ignore it or use it to lure other prey. Same situation with humans, of course if they were hungry they would just go to the nearest supermarket or fast food place for example and eat there, if it were a matter of survival then the dolphin would probably be on the menu. Other than that people would try help it back into the ocean. I have heard of animals helping other species of animals.


Quote

Thats is life, and these characteristics are common in the animal kingdom too. How does that make Dolphins and Elephants better creatures than us? Are you saying this contingent does not exist in nature?

This is also exactly what I said, twice now, why should all of humanity come under the banner held up by a few undesirables?
Never said either species were better than us. Well, greed and failure to recognise long term affect is quite hard to determine with nature. Unfortunately the few undesirables are in charge of what happens on a grand scale. (sociopathic, greedy etc politicians, CEOs etc). Not all are bad but just saying.


Quote

Hippy crap. We manipulate our environment  Some mess it up, other have to clean it up, thing is we are the only species that has a contingent that cares about the environment and other species. I think people who say we are less than these wild animals needs their head read. It strikes me as an early symptom of depression. You poop in your own backyard, it will smell, not rocket science.


If you want to have some dark deep hateful and resenting little kernel against humanity, that's your life. I am not interested in introverted emo crap.
I thought it would be identified as such but for example destroy the soil around you and you won't have anywhere to grow the food. Same could be applied for everything. Which is why you have to consider it is still nature and you need to try and conserve this. Not necessarily hippy crap, just realist.

You put an elephant to solve oil leaks, you're going to get no where. We are the only species who can actually fix these problems. Of course we aren't going to stand idle and watch this happen.

I did not think I came across as one who hated humanity or such. Just factual evidence of what is actually happening in the world and the stark reality of what things really are at. As Ryegrog has also said, just telling it like it is.

I also recognise the amount of good people in this world who want to and do help in fixing things. What I detest in humanity is ignorance, which, quite frankly is the CORE problem.

Edited by Orcseeker, 14 October 2012 - 03:42 AM.


#69    Orcseeker

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:38 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 12 October 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:



I'll remember that next time I feel I am being used at work or at home. Can I kill my boss and say "he was using me" to get off the hook?

Ceremonial beast sounds like a pretty elevated position to me. Aren't they the ones that get the back rubs and baths?
Ok maybe I didn't stipulate everything in my post. Obviously these elephants have been taken from their homes. I'm not sure of the procedure of Indian trainers but most circus trainers undergo a "breaking" procedure. They "break" the elephant through beating and such until it gives in, so the elephant would then follow the trainers orders.

They are wild animals I believe you are forgetting that important fact. I also believe in that video you notice their legs are chained up. But it's all good because they get back rubs and baths... Right?

Quote

Ohh, I see, so when one kills in revenge, that is quite acceptable.

Have we not risen above slaughtering a species because one of the species caused you some hurt? That is what the above is describing. I do not think that is something to herald.

I see you left Dolphins alone?
Revenge? Oh no, I was saying invasion of their homes. I mean, how do humans usually react in that case? Oh yeah, war, that's it.

I believe that is because we recognise in the wild that is how they are and that is what you can expect.

I left dolphins alone since I don't know enough about them to make a comment. I only recently watched a couple of videos on the elephants and the training procedures they go through. From what I've seen they've just had enough and snap.


#70    Orcseeker

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:49 AM

View PostRyegrog, on 12 October 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:



I believe the worlds population is now 7 billion. Double that since the early 1960's.
Do you think if the population keeps growing mother earth will be able to substain her?

Quite a shocking statistic. No one here can say we can afford to have a higher population. We can't even provide a quality level of living to everyone alive now, how would the growing population possibly help this?


#71    Hawkin

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:12 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 14 October 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

Quite a shocking statistic. No one here can say we can afford to have a higher population. We can't even provide a quality level of living to everyone alive now, how would the growing population possibly help this?

It's scary to think what would happen if the population keeps growing. I think Nature will take care of that
since we as humans are part of nature whether we like to think we are or not. Here In Illinois, USA and
other states the White-Tail deer population have been inflicted with a viral infection call Blue Tongue.
There are so many deer that hunters seem to can't get the population down because they want that
prized Buck with Big Antlers rather then harvest a female Doe and that leaves a lot of Does that have
a tendency to cause collisions with cars on highways. I think this Blue Tongue is natures way of thinning the heard.

It's good to have some skepticism so you won't be gullible & naïve. But to much skepticism can make you arrogant & egotistical.

#72    Orcseeker

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:05 AM

View PostRyegrog, on 14 October 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:



It's scary to think what would happen if the population keeps growing. I think Nature will take care of that
since we as humans are part of nature whether we like to think we are or not. Here In Illinois, USA and
other states the White-Tail deer population have been inflicted with a viral infection call Blue Tongue.
There are so many deer that hunters seem to can't get the population down because they want that
prized Buck with Big Antlers rather then harvest a female Doe and that leaves a lot of Does that have
a tendency to cause collisions with cars on highways. I think this Blue Tongue is natures way of thinning the heard.
Yeah I think something like that will happen and is inevitable. Will start somewhere where the populations are high and high low quality of life. China and India are big contenders for a starting point. It is only a matter of time.


#73    Junior Chubb

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:58 PM

This thread seems to have taken an interesting turn, in that the 'intelligence' of humans is being scored by the damage we cause to our environment and that has been compared to other animals that are less intrusive in their way of living.

I do not see how this argument can stand. I believe our 'intelligence' allows us to do what no other animal would do, attempt to control our own population growth and consider the effects we have on our environment. Any other animal on the planet would keep on multiplying until they had used up all the resources they need for survival and end up starving to death. Look at the way plagues of animals form and die. Would elephants suddenly stop reproducing or learn how to manage grasslands if they had a population great enough to drain the world of the resources they need to survive?

I agree we are not as intelligent as we often give ourselves credit for being, but our behaviour compared to wild animals is irrelevant in the argument of that intelligence.

Edited by Junior Chubb, 14 October 2012 - 08:59 PM.

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

#74    CRIPTIC CHAMELEON

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 09:21 PM

I do remember reading once that we are from outer space. :yes:


#75    psyche101

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 05:56 AM

View PostRyegrog, on 12 October 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

I believe the worlds population is now 7 billion. Double that since the early 1960's.
Do you think if the population keeps growing mother earth will be able to substain  her?

I believe we are already addressing these issues. Australia's policy was always to grow large but in the last couple of years fears have arisen that such is likely to affect our current way of life. I expect this to follow suit. Although there is still much land, resources are harder to come by. Alternate fuels, foods and living conditions are all under scrutiny now, and we are looking for smarter cleaner ways to do things.

View PostRyegrog, on 12 October 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

That's another trait we humans have... Pride. It's amazing how you and I provide each
other links to back our claims but reject them because we don't like to be wrong. So what's the sense in
asking for a link for info if one is going to reject it?

I do not reject your link, as I explained I simply cannot see it. It just looks like a white rectangle to me. I would appreciate if you could stick to text or the like for my own sake and to better further any conversation.
I guess there is a measure of pride involved, I think our ancestors have accomplished a great deal and I feel a sense of pride about that.

View PostRyegrog, on 12 October 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

BTW... You're right about Violence in Elephants and Dolphins. How's that for manning up?

LOL :tu:

It is not just you at all, most people have an ingrained love for these animals, and we find it hard to imagine them doing these things, but at the end of the day, they are wild animals, just like a Lion or Tiger. It's a very typical mindset and most people are shocked when they recognise it. I admit I was surprised to find the lovable Dolphin will rape a human given the chance! And after that doco on Elephants, crikey, I think they are pretty darn scary, heck a Giraffe can crack a Lions skull with one kick! And they have killed quite a few people as well.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who




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